Suns trying to be 3rd wheel in Butler trade to land Dragic

[SirStefan32]

Apparently. It was just an ugly bone break rather than a tear. I think fears of him not being healthy or recovering are misplaced. Generally breaks are much easier to return from. Of course the gruesome breaks stick with fans longer though and could stick with the players also but I'm sure Canaan knows he needs to show he's healthy if he wants to start this season on an NBA roster.

I think they said he had a minor thumb injury or something like that.

 

[Yuma]

The first list of guys the Suns listed way back after trading Knight, the one with:

Suns have definitely been trying to trade for a front tier point guard - Lillard, Walker, Rozier - but to no avail. Situation at point guard now is not ideal and Phoenix will have to make a trade but Milwaukee pick that they own is not that valuable. - John Gambadoro

I would want a guy like that. Teague or Dragic? No team will even be a little scared of us with those guys. I agree with Chaplin. Roll up with a top tier guy, now we got the league's attention! LOL!

 

[AzStevenCal]

The first list of guys the Suns listed way back after trading Knight, the one with:

Suns have definitely been trying to trade for a front tier point guard - Lillard, Walker, Rozier - but to no avail. Situation at point guard now is not ideal and Phoenix will have to make a trade but Milwaukee pick that they own is not that valuable. - John Gambadoro

I would want a guy like that. Teague or Dragic? No team will even be a little scared of us with those guys. I agree with Chaplin. Roll up with a top tier guy, now we got the league's attention! LOL!

Just my opinion but I wouldn't put Rozier anywhere near the front tier list until he's shown out in something other than Brad's system.

 

[Yuma]

I am more in the Lillard camp if we could get him to extend a few years as part of the trade.

Probably better to wait until next season when more guys hit free agency.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I am more in the Lillard camp if we could get him to extend a few years as part of the trade.

I wouldn't mind it but Walker is likely more attainable IMO. They aren't going to want to give him the contract he's hoping for so I think they might move him by the deadline.

 

[Hoop Head]

I wouldn't mind it but Walker is likely more attainable IMO. They aren't going to want to give him the contract he's hoping for so I think they might move him by the deadline.

Problem with that is the Suns will then be on the hook for that contract. If they trade for him then Walker will think he can resign here for closer to what he's asking now. If we don't trade for him and pursue him in free agency, there's a chance we get him for a better value since he won't get the max he's seeking in Charlotte and we also won't be sending away anything to bring him in.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We should try JJ.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Problem with that is the Suns will then be on the hook for that contract. If they trade for him then Walker will think he can resign here for closer to what he's asking now. If we don't trade for him and pursue him in free agency, there's a chance we get him for a better value since he won't get the max he's seeking in Charlotte and we also won't be sending away anything to bring him in.

I'm rarely right about this kind of thing but are you sure about that? I thought 140M/4YR was the max for a team that traded for him or signed him outright as opposed to the 190M/5YR the Hornets could offer?

 

[Phrazbit]

We should try JJ.

I disagree. While I think he has the skills to eventually be a really solid playmaker from the wing, his biggest problem currently is not playing within himself. Playing him at point right now, IMO, would be playing to his weakness and likely to entrench bad habits.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I disagree. While I think he has the skills to eventually be a really solid playmaker from the wing, his biggest problem currently is not playing within himself. Playing him at point right now, IMO, would be playing to his weakness and likely to entrench bad habits.

I think we're looking at PG by committee which will include JJ and Booker along with our rookies and G League escapees.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm rarely right about this kind of thing but are you sure about that? I thought 140M/4YR was the max for a team that traded for him or signed him outright as opposed to the 190M/5YR the Hornets could offer?

I'm not sure if he qualifies for a supermax, I think not, but the max we can sign him too if we trade for him is higher than pursuing him in free agency because we gain his bird rights. Setting aside any supermax talk, which I can't look up now. The most we can offer next summer is 4 years with 5% raises annually. If we trade for him the max is 5 years with 7.5% annual increases. So trading for him would raise the financial hit. Also i think its less likely he would resign here for less than max if we trade for him. We might be able to sign him for a little less than the max if no one else is offering him a max deal on the open market. Its rare an unrestricted player who is seeking max money gets less from their current team. At most they might take a cut down to what they could get from another team as the max so its still max money but small savings for the team. Its like matching a max contract offer because you have 1 less year and 2.5% difference in the raises annually. That adds up over time.

I like Kemba but that price is too high for him. I would rather see the Suns throw 20 million a year for 4 years at Rubio and make him decide where he wants to be. I doubt Utah pays that much but they might. Igor would be the selling point there and if he says he's worth it then I would agree. He's a little younger than Kemba and a better defender. We know he works in Igor's system. He's a willing playmaker also who won't complain about his own touches or shots. I think that's less than Kemba will get and so long as Utah doesn't extend Rubio this year, he'll be on the market next summer. We stand a good chance if we have the cash. That might leave us around 8-10 million to sign someone else, maybe Ariza if he works out well and has gas left in the tank after this season. I think most would prefer a PG and a player to replace Ariza, Anderson, and Chandler. All are likely gone at years end unless we resign them, they're our cap space plus Troy Daniels, and our youth will replace some of their minutes and roles but being able to keep one or replace one will help us in the long run. Keeping Anderson at his 20 million dollar cap hit isn't happening so it's resigning Ariza or Chandler, really, and Chandler shouldn't cost more than the minimum if he doesn't retire. He owes the Suns a year that cheap, IMO. Unlikely that happens though.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think we're looking at PG by committee which will include JJ and Booker along with our rookies and G League escapees.

I could handle that, him seeing spot duty, like a few minutes a night, I feel like he did that some at the end of last season. But we've all seen he has a tendency to get reckless when he feels unrestrained.

I think JJ is going to be a really good player, I LOVE that it's hard to not notice JJ out on the court, because he is seemingly everywhere, while we've seen dudes like Len and Bender be basically invisible for long stretches. But his biggest weakness is that he gets reckless and tries to force things, which also seems to be a habit of legions of bad point guards. I'd rather him learn to be an off the ball player who takes advantage of play making opportunities when they arise, rather than one is trying to create for others.

Except in transition, look for him in transition all day, that guy is going to be an absolute monster on the break.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not sure if he qualifies for a supermax, I think not, but the max we can sign him too if we trade for him is higher than pursuing him in free agency because we gain his bird rights. Setting aside any supermax talk, which I can't look up now. The most we can offer next summer is 4 years with 5% raises annually. If we trade for him the max is 5 years with 7.5% annual increases. So trading for him would raise the financial hit. Also i think its less likely he would resign here for less than max if we trade for him. We might be able to sign him for a little less than the max if no one else is offering him a max deal on the open market. Its rare an unrestricted player who is seeking max money gets less from their current team. At most they might take a cut down to what they could get from another team as the max so its still max money but small savings for the team. Its like matching a max contract offer because you have 1 less year and 2.5% difference in the raises annually. That adds up over time.

I like Kemba but that price is too high for him. I would rather see the Suns throw 20 million a year for 4 years at Rubio and make him decide where he wants to be. I doubt Utah pays that much but they might. Igor would be the selling point there and if he says he's worth it then I would agree. He's a little younger than Kemba and a better defender. We know he works in Igor's system. He's a willing playmaker also who won't complain about his own touches or shots. I think that's less than Kemba will get and so long as Utah doesn't extend Rubio this year, he'll be on the market next summer. We stand a good chance if we have the cash. That might leave us around 8-10 million to sign someone else, maybe Ariza if he works out well and has gas left in the tank after this season. I think most would prefer a PG and a player to replace Ariza, Anderson, and Chandler. All are likely gone at years end unless we resign them, they're our cap space plus Troy Daniels, and our youth will replace some of their minutes and roles but being able to keep one or replace one will help us in the long run. Keeping Anderson at his 20 million dollar cap hit isn't happening so it's resigning Ariza or Chandler, really, and Chandler shouldn't cost more than the minimum if he doesn't retire. He owes the Suns a year that cheap, IMO. Unlikely that happens though.

I wanted to argue against that second paragraph but... I gotta admit, the logic is sound. Rubio is a really good play maker, great at spotting guys on the break and he's become a passable shooter after being a trainwreck for most of his career, and he has consistently been a really good defender.

I think Kemba is a better player in a vacuum, but given the talent we already have on the roster, Rubio is a better fit and I think we could probably land him for less than 20 mil a year, probably more like 15. The Jazz already extended Exum, they just drafted Grayson Allen (gag me, I bet Jazz fans will love him).

Massive aside incoming:

Also, poor Jazz. They've a potential superstar guard, a defensive beast big and a ton of cap room coming up, a situation that would sniff of a potential dynasty if elsewhere... but who the hell wants to live in Salt Lake City? Southern Utah is a marvel of nature's beauty. Northern Utah is probably the most dull area of the country, especially if you're a young dude with tons of money who regularly sees the social lives of your peers living in other cities.

I've been through there a few times, on my way to more entertaining things. I'm not a 21-28 year old millionaire and I was BEGGING to find a fun spot to kill some nights. Me and my girlfriend at the time went out paying way too much money for awful drinks in empty sad businesses.

Donovan Mitchell grew up on the East coast, he went to a college that we now know bought hookers for players. The Jazz had better play that he settles down with some local girl in the next year or two or that dude is gone as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Hoop Head]

I wanted to argue against that second paragraph but... I gotta admit, the logic is sound. Rubio is a really good play maker, great at spotting guys on the break and he's become a passable shooter after being a trainwreck for most of his career, and he has consistently been a really good defender.

I think Kemba is a better player in a vacuum, but given the talent we already have on the roster, Rubio is a better fit and I think we could probably land him for less than 20 mil a year, probably more like 15. The Jazz already extended Exum, they just drafted Grayson Allen (gag me, I bet Jazz fans will love him).

Massive aside incoming:

Also, poor Jazz. They've a potential superstar guard, a defensive beast big and a ton of cap room coming up, a situation that would sniff of a potential dynasty if elsewhere... but who the hell wants to live in Salt Lake City? Southern Utah is a marvel of nature's beauty. Northern Utah is probably the most dull area of the country, especially if you're a young dude with tons of money who regularly sees the social lives of your peers living in other cities.

I've been through there a few times, on my way to more entertaining things. I'm not a 21-28 year old millionaire and I was BEGGING to find a fun spot to kill some nights. Me and my girlfriend at the time went out paying way too much money for awful drinks in empty sad businesses.

Donovan Mitchell grew up on the East coast, he went to a college that we now know bought hookers for players. The Jazz had better play that he settles down with some local girl in the next year or two or that dude is gone as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

Jazz fans don't like talking about the odds of players leaving because of the city because the sting of Hayward is fresh. The odds of Rubio leaving are good, especially with a coach that helped him become more than he was. He's given Igor as much, if not more, credit than Snyder for his increased production in Utah. Back when he was drafted by Minnesota there was talk he wouldn't be happy there and now that he's in Utah that hasn't been mentioned but that's mainly because he had 2 years left when acquired and he didn't become the star a lot of people projected. Jazz fans know that their city needs to spend to keep talent and hope that their players fall in love with something there, be it the city, a coach, a teammate, a local girl, something. If they don't then they can't compete when they're free to leave. They saw Hayward bail for a coach he was familiar with and while Rubio isn't Hayward, it could happen again. Might sting more that the coach made that connection in Utah initially though. The Jazz fans I talked to a while back this off season didn't like the idea of a bidding war or even equal money keeping Rubio if the choice was Phoenix or Utah. They seemed to accept that Mitchell can play PG fine if they need to replace Rubio and Exum can't do that because of health. I do think Mitchell is more of a PG than Booker, he's more like Wade with an outside shot and might improve without Rubio. So I like the odds of them letting Ricky go.

He's at the top of my want list for the Suns now and in free agency next year. I think he makes the Suns a playoff team. He's probably the best PG fit next to Booker in the league, now that he's added a 3pt shot. At least when it comes to players in the league that could become available. Of course there are PG's that might be better who are All-stars but that isn't happening. Definitely not without a huge price to be paid and the Suns shouldn't pay it, not when someone like Ricky could help just as much and cost a whole lot less. Part of how he would help initially is by costing less than a Lillard, Kyrie, or even Kemba.

For the record, I still want to punch Rubio in his stupid face. He has one of the most punchable faces of any NBA player, especially since he's been in Utah and has grown his hair and that stupid beard. The fact I think he would be perfect for the Suns only makes me want to punch him more, in a way. I don't want to like him but I do. His face when he complains to refs bothers me more than any player that wasn't a Spur but I would deal with it if he were a Sun. I went to a Suns/Jazz game last year and had floor seats. I was close enough to develop that hatred of his whining and making peace with that since looking at our PG options this year by trade or free agency next summer has been hard to come to grips with. Probably hate him more if he signs an extension in Utah, haw haw. Not that it will bother him but it might make the Jazz unhealthy for me to watch in the future.

 

[95pro]

For the record, I still want to punch Rubio in his stupid face. He has one of the most punchable faces of any NBA player, especially since he's been in Utah and has grown his hair and that stupid beard. The fact I think he would be perfect for the Suns only makes me want to punch him more, in a way. I don't want to like him but I do. His face when he complains to refs bothers me more than any player that wasn't a Spur but I would deal with it if he were a Sun. I went to a Suns/Jazz game last year and had floor seats. I was close enough to develop that hatred of his whining and making peace with that since looking at our PG options this year by trade or free agency next summer has been hard to come to grips with. Probably hate him more if he signs an extension in Utah, haw haw. Not that it will bother him but it might make the Jazz unhealthy for me to watch in the future.

Just so I understand, you hate...haha

Yeah me too. I hate the guy too, just something about him, especially that beard. Maybe its that whole team I just don't like. But Rubio is that guy that gets under your skin and that other guy too, Ingles?

 

[AzStevenCal]

If we trade for him the max is 5 years with 7.5% annual increases. So trading for him would raise the financial hit.

Here's an excerpt from an article in the Charlotte Observer from earlier this year (February):

A key number to keep in mind: Under NBA rules, Walker is eligible to sign a maximum value five-year, $188 million contract in the summer of 2019, with a first-season salary of $32.4 million. Teams other than the Hornets (or a team trading for Walker) could offer him a 4-year contract worth a maximum value of $139 million.

It's worded a bit confusingly but I think it's saying the same thing you are. I quoted it here because I think it's also the source for my original confusion.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just so I understand, you hate...haha

Yeah me too. I hate the guy too, just something about him, especially that beard. Maybe its that whole team I just don't like. But Rubio is that guy that gets under your skin and that other guy too, Ingles?

Ingles gets under my skin more than Rubio. There is something about his facial expressions during a game.

 

[Hoop Head]

Just so I understand, you hate...haha

Yeah me too. I hate the guy too, just something about him, especially that beard. Maybe its that whole team I just don't like. But Rubio is that guy that gets under your skin and that other guy too, Ingles?

Ingles doesn't bother me that much only because I've been so focused hating Rubio. Now that I'm warming to the idea of the Suns acquiring him I'll try shifting that hate to Ingles.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ingles doesn't bother me that much only because I've been so focused hating Rubio. Now that I'm warming to the idea of the Suns acquiring him I'll try shifting that hate to Ingles.

Watch Ingles a bit more. It's not hard to make the switch.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Watch Ingles a bit more. It's not hard to make the switch.

I'm a Suns fan, they play for Utah. It's a match made in hell, I can easily hate them both.

 

[Hoop Head]

Here's an excerpt from an article in the Charlotte Observer from earlier this year (February):



It's worded a bit confusingly but I think it's saying the same thing you are. I quoted it here because I think it's also the source for my original confusion.

That is worded strangely but I think it has to do with how players can't force sign and trades for the same contracts that their initial team can offer, with the higher raises and extra year. If the Suns, or someone else, trades for him before he's a free agent though then they can offer that initial contract that's mentioned, the $180 million or whatever was said.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That is worded strangely but I think it has to do with how players can't force sign and trades for the same contracts that their initial team can offer, with the higher raises and extra year. If the Suns, or someone else, trades for him before he's a free agent though then they can offer that initial contract that's mentioned, the $180 million or whatever was said.

For some reason I had thought that was just in the next to last year of their first contract but I guess it must continue.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm a Suns fan, they play for Utah. It's a match made in hell, I can easily hate them both.

I guess I never got past my concentration on Ingles face. IMO, he has sort of a smirk when he knocks down shots.

Additionally, I never thought he looked like a basketball player although that can probably be said of a lot of players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You all would actually pay Rubio as much as Kemba? Or you think Rubio is better than Kemba? I think I would be careful about that. Rubio improved last season a lot. Players have seasons like that sometimes and then revert to who they actually are. Brandon Knight is an example.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You all would actually pay Rubio as much as Kemba? Or you think Rubio is better than Kemba? I think I would be careful about that. Rubio improved last season a lot. Players have seasons like that sometimes and then revert to who they actually are. Brandon Knight is an example.

Apparently some would. I think he's grossly overrated on this forum and Kemba is almost as underrated here. When contract time comes, Walker will likely get the max or thereabouts and I don't see that happening with Rubio despite being 6 months younger than Kemba.