Suns Vs Grizzlies 11-5-14

[AzStevenCal]

I didn't read that anyplace but since he signed with LAL for 1 million, it sounds reasonable. My read on the situation at the time was that he wanted to escape from ZBo's shadow and probably told Memphis he was not going to take the qualifying offer so they didn't bother to make it. My idea was to offer him more than the QO, which would have still been cheap and point out to him that Markieff was his only competition at PF. I'd want a long enough contract that we'd have the advantage over other teams when it came time to resign him.

I'm sorry, I should have qualified that comment. I didn't come across a news report, it was just various comments on RealGm that "sounded" authoritative. I bought into them because nothing else made sense to me. It's also likely that we weren't pushing very hard for him at the time because we still thought Frye was coming back.

I actually think our need for Davis was at least as great if we had kept Frye. A starting lineup of Bledsoe, Dragic, Tucker, Davis and Frye would have been formidable. Follow that with the second squad of Thomas, Green, MM (or Warren), MM and Len/Plumlee should also have been very effective. But add Davis to our current roster and I think we're still looking at many of the same problems we're struggling with now.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

Dragic has struggled as the lead guard too (and he's actually had more touches per game than Eric) although yes, it's been worse when he's played off the ball. As for penetrating, I remember seeing stats after the season that showed that Bledsoe has been much more effective penetrating from near the top of the key and that Dragic succeeds at a higher rate when penetrating from the side. Maybe that goes by the wayside though without Frye working the pick and roll/pop with Goran.

Steve

Of course you have support? I've read the difference is decidely the other way, although no support was offered. And my eyes tell me you're incorrect.

 

[Sci Fi]

I don't think we will see any major personnel changes during the season. Unless some is having a fire sale they will probably look to next summer for improvements. Despite a stated goal of making the playoffs they are still in the middle of a rebuild and should maintain a long term view.

In the short term I think Dragic needs to be the primary ball handler when initiating the offense in a half court setting. I think he is better (more active) and more comfortable in that role. Bledsoe needs to be put in situations to catch and shoot, which seems improved over the summer, or attack the basket on the side off the dribble or cutting without the ball. Bledsoe is a very talented scorer and very strong finishing at the rim and the coaches need to find ways to emphasize those strengths.

Much like the MikeD system days they need to drive, pass, or shoot when they get the ball not stand around dribbling and waiting for screens to be set.

A lot of this (problem on offense) is just growing pains. Preseason can only sort out so much. I think Jeff will figure it out. Some of the problem may be sorting through the depth and a lack of cohesive lineups early in the season. I expect it will even out of the next 15 or 20 games. I am interested to see how Warren fits in when he comes back.

If we could just get the big men to be ready and catch the ball when it is passed to them (or comes to them off the glass) that would be a huge improvement.


As to the ongoing salary discussion. He is getting paid like a leader of this team it isn't unreasonable to expect production to match. I don't think he will ever be a vocal leader but it won't matter if he is playing well.

Thanks for your thoughts. Good stuff.

In terms of individual evaluations of the relative individual strengths strengths of Dragic and Bledsoe my thoughts are basically the same. The one thing I would add that is most troubling is that Dragic doesn't receive the outlet pass and is often times ignored when he is open for a pass. This might seem like a small thing to some but his attacking style of play is a huge part of what propelled the Suns last year. Not only does Bledsoe tend to attack much less frequently, he isn't very good in transition while Dragic is. He's probably one of the 5 best players in the league in transition.

I also don't think there is likely to be any major personnel changes unless the Suns are out of the playoff picture and that seems unlikely. Where we differ most is in how we see this playing out. I understand the growing pains thing but I just don't see Dragic ending up with the ball enough to make any meaningful change. Chemistry was my biggest fear this year (and only one really) and nothing has really changed. It may even be worse than I expected. That's sad because this is a wonderfully talented team. Certainly one of the most offensively talented teams in the league. It would be fun to see what they could do together.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Of course you have support? I've read the difference is decidely the other way, although no support was offered. And my eyes tell me you're incorrect.

I'm curious where you read that. I'll look for the numbers I'm talking about but mine are also second hand information. I don't recall where they originated from but I read them on RealGm. It showed Thomas in front followed by Dragic and then very closely followed by Eric.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

I actually looked it up. Too hard to provide a direct link.

Go to the NBA stats sight, tracking data.

Dragic has had less touch but not significantly. Thomas has had the most in far fewer minutes.

It's the quality of touches thats the real difference. He's had only about 60% of the opportuniites to assist as Thomas or Bledsoe. That's significant and should be reversed for Bledsoe and evened with Thomas.

And as to all this nonsense about Dragic being tired, the only player thats played more minutes per game and traveled the same distance per 48 is Tony Parker. He's playing at a faster pace than last year.

 

[Chaz]

Dragic has struggled as the lead guard too (and he's actually had more touches per game than Eric) although yes, it's been worse when he's played off the ball. As for penetrating, I remember seeing stats after the season that showed that Bledsoe has been much more effective penetrating from near the top of the key and that Dragic succeeds at a higher rate when penetrating from the side. Maybe that goes by the wayside though without Frye working the pick and roll/pop with Goran.

Steve

Dragic has struggled period. I don't think that is scheme or chemistry he just isn't playing well and I think has been less aggressive which gives him fewer opportunities to right the ship. Standing in the corner watching the center court P&R isn't going to help. They need to get some more motion in the offense.

Like I said above I look for them to figure some things out as a team over the next 15 games or so. That coming up east coast road trip should help the team gel a little.

 

[sunsfan88]

But somehow that logic doesn't apply to the Grizzlies backcourt? Got it.

It's not a fluke that the Grizzlies backcourt went off with the open shots we gave them. Suns were trying to stop Gasol-Z-Bo so much they let the guards open. And in the NBA most teams will kill you if you leave em wide open and the Grizz are a very good, if not elite, team so no surprise they did it.

Our backcourt didn get open shots cause their one of the best defensive teams in the NBA.

Keep em coming folks.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's not a fluke that the Grizzlies backcourt went off with the open shots we gave them. Suns were trying to stop Gasol-Z-Bo so much they let the guards open. And in the NBA most teams will kill you if you leave em wide open and the Grizz are a very good, if not elite, team so no surprise they did it.

Our backcourt didn get open shots cause their one of the best defensive teams in the NBA.

Keep em coming folks.

They also ran a lot of screens for their guards and our guys didn't communicate well. It wasn't uncommon to see Dragic and Marcus covering the same guy or Eric to get a blindside pick with no warning, setting the guard free to pop or drive the lane uncontested. Right now out defense looks to be giving good effort but poor communication has been a killer.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

I actually looked it up. Too hard to provide a direct link.

Go to the NBA stats sight, tracking data.

Dragic has had less touch but not significantly. Thomas has had the most in far fewer minutes.

It's the quality of touches thats the real difference. He's had only about 60% of the opportuniites to assist as Thomas or Bledsoe. That's significant and should be reversed for Bledsoe and evened with Thomas.

And as to all this nonsense about Dragic being tired, the only player thats played more minutes per game and traveled the same distance per 48 is Tony Parker. He's playing at a faster pace than last year.

This is from one of the good stat guys on RealGM (Gaspar) updated after the Memphis game:

Front court touches per game:
Dragic 47.0
Thomas 51.4 (much more minutes with Green (poor ball handler) than Goran and Eric)
Bledsoe 46.6
Green 24.8

Passes per game:
Dragic 36.4
Thomas 36.6
Bledsoe 39.6
Green 18.0
----------------------------------------

Make of it what you will. But whatever you make of it, I don't believe it's saying that Dragic is failing because of opportunities to handle the ball.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

Front court touches is only half the game. I told you, I looked it up. And like I said, it's the quality of the touches.

Dragic is struggling, no doubt. And not getting touches is certainly a part of it.

All-NBA to being the number three guy isn't helping. That's why the touches matter.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Front court touches is only half the game. I told you, I looked it up. And like I said, it's the quality of the touches.

Dragic is struggling, no doubt. And not getting touches is certainly a part of it.

All-NBA to being the number three guy isn't helping. That's why the touches matter.

I think the article on BTOS with quotes from Dragic tell the true story. I know we've all seen the article but some of the more telling comments are:

There seemed to be a lack of focus on defense too, as he lost Courtney Lee (!!) several times. His driving game is still strong (65% in restricted area), but he's throwing up a big fat 0% from three, missing all 11 of his attempts so far.

"I'm shooting the ball bad," he said. "My confidence is not so high, for sure. It's just different looks for me this year than last year, so maybe because of that. I'm working on that, hopefully it's gonna come back." Goran also admitted to seeing more bodies in the lane as the spacing without Channing Frye isn't the same.

Dragic is more likely just frustrated with his shooting than anything. He has scored in double figures in 4 of 5 games, despite being awful from outside three feet. If he just made his jumpers, his scoring would be similar to last year as well. His usage rate is down slightly from last year. Bledsoe's usage rate is also slightly down (but not much), while Thomas' usage rate is the highest of his career.

Watching him play, I just don't see the same Goran from last year and that's at both ends of the court and regardless of who he's paired in the backcourt with. The good news, Goran started off equally slowly last season through the first 10 games.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

I hope you don't believe what you read on BSOS. I charted all of Lee's shots last night. Another poster elsewhere had the same stats I did. Dragic lost him twice, once on a screen and once he feel asleep sort of. Bledsoe was awful on Conley loosing him many times, which is how he normally plays. How about that?

Sorry, Steve, it's hard to take your opinion of Dragic serious when you think he played only average last year except for a couple months. You don't like Dragic and it's obvious.

You know why you're seeing a different Dragic. He's not getting the ball! You know the backcourt touches you ignored. They're the outlet passes I mentioned above. Get him those and you'll see the same player in no time.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I hope you don't believe what you read on BSOS. I charted all of Lee's shots last night. Another poster elsewhere had the same stats I did. Dragic lost him twice, once on a screen and once he feel asleep sort of. Bledsoe was awful on Conley loosing him many times, which is how he normally plays. How about that?

Sorry, Steve, it's hard to take your opinion of Dragic serious when you think he played only average last year except for a couple months. You don't like Dragic and it's obvious.

You know why you're seeing a different Dragic. He's not getting the ball! You know the backcourt touches you ignored. They're the outlet passes I mentioned above. Get him those and you'll see the same player in no time.

Sorry but I believe you're blinded by your bias for Dragic and against Bledsoe. And regardless of what you think, I don't share that bias. I have my own but my bias is first and foremost about the Suns. Beyond that, I like both players and want to see each of them do well. I don't think we succeed if Goran plays well or if Eric plays well, we need both of them to play well. For you it seems to be Dragic or nothing.

Bledsoe did lose Conley a couple of times but much of the damage was caused by poor communication. Other than Tucker I don't think any of them was doing much in the way of communicating. But I don't see how you can watch that game and not notice that Dragic was lethargic in his approach to defense.

And I never said he was only good for a couple of months. He played great for about three months. He was fantastic in January and December, he was very good the second half of November and in February through the All Star break. From the break on though, he was no better than an average starting point guard. He had some good games along the way but on the whole of it, he was unspectacular after the break and for the first 10 games of the season.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

Dragic is lethargic and only one starter on the other 30 teams covers more distance per minute. He's playing harder than last year. Unbelievable. A computer and cameras show how unaware people are at observation and you still think your right. What's the line from that song? "A man sees what he wants to and disregards the rest."

I did watch the game Steve. In fact I went back and watched several times. I'm not even sure you did once.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Dragic is lethargic and only one starter on the other 30 teams covers more distance per minute. He's playing harder than last year. Unbelievable. A computer and cameras show how unaware people are at observation and you still think your right. What's the line from that song? "A man sees what he wants to and disregards the rest."

I did watch the game Steve. In fact I went back and watched several times. I'm not even sure you did once.

I guess that's a step up from calling me a liar as you've done a few times in the past.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

Justed searched Steve.

Sorry, no matches.