Suns VS Lakers : Game 2

[Cheesebeef]

Agreed. Kobe's shins hit Nash's chest. You can't call a charge on that. The correct call would have been no call. What Nash did was similar to what everybody used to try to do to Amare last year. As soon as he would jump, a player would set their feet and get an ridiculous charge call.

totally agree.

 

[HooverDam]

And there was no way they were calling a charge of Kobe on the play, but it should have been a no call.

I can go for that, but to call a foul on Nash is what really was frustrating.

 

[Cheesebeef]

so - what do you guys think Marion ends up averaging for the series and how long into next season do we hear the same old tired whining from him about a lack of respect?

And anyone thinking we can get Garnett for Marion and change is dreaming - it would take Marion, Boris and likely Atlanta's pick and that's too steep a price to pay.

 

[Cheesebeef]

although, a lineup of Nash, Bell, James Jones, Amare and Garnett would be TERRIFYING - with Kurt and Leo off the bench, as well our first round pick this year.

The problem there though is that is totally shuts our window down to two or three years, but then again, with Marion on the squad, maybe there really is no window anyway...

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I just got home from the game....

The only thing I have to say is at least the crowd was totally into the game during the second half. The place was rocking - one of the best times I have seen....


Other than that......I dont want to talk about it

 

[jibikao]

so - what do you guys think Marion ends up averaging for the series and how long into next season do we hear the same old tired whining from him about a lack of respect?

And anyone thinking we can get Garnett for Marion and change is dreaming - it would take Marion, Boris and likely Atlanta's pick and that's too steep a price to pay.

Not if KG wants to leave. You don't get the equal value back normally. Marion is part of the equation but I don't want to give up Diaw. I don't mind the pick 'cause pick doesn't seem that important when we try to put Nash, Amare and KG together for a championship run. If Wolves want to trade KG, that means they are ready for the re-building process. The Atlanta pick will be perfect.

 

[jibikao]

Having said that, I think the KG trade is too good to be true. I think the chance of happening is below 10%.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not if KG wants to leave. You don't get the equal value back normally. Marion is part of the equation but I don't want to give up Diaw. I don't mind the pick 'cause pick doesn't seem that important when we try to put Nash, Amare and KG together for a championship run. If Wolves want to trade KG, that means they are ready for the re-building process. The Atlanta pick will be perfect.

yeah, but if they're rebuilding, they're also gonna need a play-maker back as well and that's Boris at this point. Marion and the Hawks pick won't be enough to gethim, not when the Bulls have loads of young talent (take your pick of swingmen AND playmakers) and the KNICKS pick to offer.

that being said, Garnett is a pipe-dream. McHale is too stupid to realize that he can't build a team around KG and KG will rot in Minny for the rest of his career.

 

[sly fly]

- Quit bitching about the refs. Leave that to Laker Fan.

- PHX will win Game 3. Why??

- Because Shawn Marion's sphincter will have relaxed by then.

- Shawn Marion's body language was just horrendous. Head down, blank stare, blowing "air" into his hands after a botched dribble or shot. Are you friggin' insane?

Man up, and make someone guard you. Hell, he should make Odom pay the price on the other end of the court. That's what "great" players do. Ho hum, nothing important, Shawn.

- Brian Grant may have played the 2 most unproductive minutes of ball since Chuck Nevitt got his ass of the bench in the Laker glory years.

- Ray of hope! ANY other team in the playoffs would have beaten PHX tonight. And, it would have a larger deficit than tonight. So, there is a chance...

- Lamar Odom was BY FAR the best player on the court tonight.

- I'm so sick to my stomach, I will refrain from reading or watching any media until Game 3 is over with. This site doesn't count.

- We'll win Game 3. Dominate Game 4. Come back to PHX and win Game 4. And, everybody will say what a great series it was.

 

[justAndy]

are the Laker fans all partying right bout now?
I just got back from the recording studio - the best thing i can say about this game is that Dephinger has 4 good mixes from tonight.
I checked the box - looks to me the Suns mainly got killed by their inabilty to make shots -that's how they live and die.
Damn - I'm broke as the 10 Commandments - Suns have to win - else i have to buy Ddogg a boot of Konig Ludwig at the German Corner.
That's 20 bux...
my bad for giving him 5.5/1 beer odds on this series.

 

[Cheesebeef]

- Because Shawn Marion's sphincter will have relaxed by then.

take it from someone with Irritable Bowl Syndrome and who just had a colonoscopy - once that sphincter's tight, it doesn't relax on it's own - it JUST GETS WORSE - I expect San Antonio Shawn in Games 3 and 4 - hope to God to be proven wrong - the next two days living in LA is gonna be akin to living in hell.

 

[jibikao]

yeah, but if they're rebuilding, they're also gonna need a play-maker back as well and that's Boris at this point. Marion and the Hawks pick won't be enough to gethim, not when the Bulls have loads of young talent (take your pick of swingmen AND playmakers) and the KNICKS pick to offer.

that being said, Garnett is a pipe-dream. McHale is too stupid to realize that he can't build a team around KG and KG will rot in Minny for the rest of his career.

I am hoping KG said he WANTS to leave, then Wolves will be forced to trade downward. What's the point of keeping a player that doesn't want to play for the organization? I still don't think it can happen. Suns is stuck with Marion until he retires.

Edit: Having thought about it, why are we talking about trading Marion? The series ain't over!!! My bad. The idea of getting KG kinda got me excited for a while. Back to reality.

 

[jibikao]

are the Laker fans all partying right bout now?
I just got back from the recording studio - the best thing i can say about this game is that Dephinger has 4 good mixes from tonight.
I checked the box - looks to me the Suns mainly got killed by their inabilty to make shots -that's how they live and die.
Damn - I'm broke as the 10 Commandments - Suns have to win - else i have to buy Ddogg a boot of Konig Ludwig at the German Corner.
That's 20 bux...
my bad for giving him 5.5/1 beer odds on this series.

It's funny 'cause I was soooooooooooooooooo mad after I walked away from my TV and my friend thought Suns lost the whole series. I told him...no, just one game and the series is 1-1. He was like WTF. lol Hey, can't blame me for wanting a sweep!!!

 

[elindholm]

As far as the Bryant/Nash dunk was concerned, Bryant missed the free throw, so the foul basically didn't matter.

I'm still trying to figure out how the Suns lost by only six. Being perfect from the line helped, but other than that, very little went right. Oh, wait -- they were competitive on the boards, that was nice.

David Aldridge said, early in the second half I think, that Marion doesn't like getting double-team help on defense because he has "too much pride," and he thinks switching "is for cowards." And Odom went 9-12 from the field with five assists.

I'm reminded of the demise of the Barkley/Johnson Suns, when Westphal had to deputize Johnson to tell Barkley that the offense wasn't going to be run through him, because the coach wasn't man enough to do it himself. It's time for someone -- I don't care who -- to tell Marion that this isn't about being respected or getting recognized or pride or courage. It's about winning. The best run the Suns made in the second half was when Marion went to the bench. He can't guard Odom one-on-one, and everyone else on both teams knows it. Accept help, play team defense, and let the wins do the talking.

 

[D-Dogg]

are the Laker fans all partying right bout now?
I just got back from the recording studio - the best thing i can say about this game is that Dephinger has 4 good mixes from tonight.
I checked the box - looks to me the Suns mainly got killed by their inabilty to make shots -that's how they live and die.
Damn - I'm broke as the 10 Commandments - Suns have to win - else i have to buy Ddogg a boot of Konig Ludwig at the German Corner.
That's 20 bux...
my bad for giving him 5.5/1 beer odds on this series.

There's no partying in Laker Land...this series is going to be a dogfight.

 

[jibikao]

There's no partying in Laker Land...this series is going to be a dogfight.

I was wondering why you are so quiet... lol Didn't see you post anything about the charge or Kwame ran into Bell. Oh wait, it's because it was in Laker's favor. What's to argue about?

We'll see you on Friday. Let's all I can say. Only Nash and Bell wanted to play tonight.

 

[D-Dogg]

I don't think it was a charge...Nash was moving into postion as Kobe was taking off. I do think it should have been a no-call however. I watched that in HD on DVR over and over, and as Kobe starts to elevate, Nash's body pops into position...just a hair late. Mostly should have been a no-call though. And he missed the And-1, so nothing really was altered by it.

Kwame and Bell "fouling" each other could have been called but it wasn't. That's what happens, just like with Kobe's lovely little lump.

And I'm quiet because the Lakers haven't won anything yet...but I do like the way they are going about this series...it's exactly the way I wanted to see them go at your team, all year. I guess it's better to do it in the playoffs though. I'm not one for talk of sweeps, backdoor sweeps, gloating, etc. We won one, you won one. I think the Lakers are in a great position, but they have to execute to continue to win. I'll crow or congratulate when the series is over, not before.

 

[Alan]

I love ESPN's front page. Picture of Kobe dunking with the caption "Kobe punctuated his 29 points with a dunk ... over this year's MVP."

I think the " ... " means "running"

 

[Alan]

Although Nash's hand placement is a bit roughy in this photo ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260426021

 

[D-Dogg]

To the arguments for it being a charge and not a block:

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_c.html?nav=ArticleList

..A defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his shooting motion.

A defensive player must allow a moving player the distance to stop or change direction when the offensive player receives a pass outside the lower defensive box.

A defensive player must allow an alighted player the distance to land and then stop or change direction when the offensive player is outside the lower defensive box.

A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of an offensive player who receives a pass inside the lower defensive box regardless of his speed and distance...

I still think it should have been a no-call though...it was pretty close but it should not have been a charge. If anything, a block is the correct call, where a no-call would have been more accurate, IMO.

 

[jbeecham]

Nash was in position before Kobe jumped for the dunk. The ref under the basket demonstratively called it a charge against Kobe and was overruled by the ref at mid-court. Again, that's the ref with the best view of the play making the right call and being overruled by a guy 25-30ft away from the play.

Raja getting floored by Brown on the loose ball was the non-call that destroyed any chance for a Suns comeback. Brown fumbled the pass and the ball was closest to Raja (who got to the ball 1st) and then he gets tackled and the ball pops out and no call..........Suns were down 3 at the time.

How about the ridiculous offensive fouls we kept getting called for in the 2nd qtr. Both Nash & Diaw called called for offensive fouls for a little contact as they drove to the hoop (with the defender moving the entire time).......more contact than that usually occurs on 95% of drives to the basket and it's always either a non-call or a defensive blocking foul. There were so many bad calls the game made me sick and I had to go kill people in Halo 2 on Xbox live for 4 hrs just to try to forget about it.

 

[D-Dogg]

Nash was in position before Kobe jumped for the dunk. The ref under the basket demonstratively called it a charge against Kobe and was overruled by the ref at mid-court. Again, that's the ref with the best view of the play making the right call and being overruled by a guy 25-30ft away from the play.

Raja getting floored by Brown on the loose ball was the non-call that destroyed any chance for a Suns comeback. Brown fumbled the pass and the ball was closest to Raja (who got to the ball 1st) and then he gets tackled and the ball pops out and no call..........Suns were down 3 at the time.

How about the ridiculous offensive fouls we kept getting called for in the 2nd qtr. Both Nash & Diaw called called for offensive fouls for a little contact as they drove to the hoop (with the defender moving the entire time).......more contact than that usually occurs on 95% of drives to the basket and it's always either a non-call or a defensive blocking foul. There were so many bad calls the game made me sick and I had to go kill people in Halo 2 on Xbox live for 4 hrs just to try to forget about it.

That's a Joey Crawford game for you..if you look back at page one I called it would be a weird officiated game. Hell, look at when Kwame was called for 3 seconds in the 4th, when he was in for far less, and if IIRC, the 3 second rule isn't in effect until after the ball is past half court, yet the pass came from just past half court and called immediately. Crawford officiated games are always iffy, IMO. How about Smush and Luke in foul trouble right away on touch calls? That's as bad as anything that occured late.

I'm rewatching the DVR of this game and will look to see if Joey called a charge and changed it..that's not how I recall. I'll repost when I review it...I thought he was clear on calling it a block right away, and even Nash said as much in his post game conference. I don't think Joey took the mid-court officials call over his own, but I may be wrong. It may have happened, but the tape should tell the tale...if it shows indecision on Joey's part its possible.

 

[D-Dogg]

Ok, I can see your confusion on that call. Crawford was definitely calling a block, but he makes a forward thrust with his arm first (which could be interpreted as a charge) but immediately calls the block.

Upon multiple reviews, it is certain that Crawford did not change the call:

1. His eyes are on the play the entire time, and his first arm thrust signifys the basket counts..that's the way he does it...he's a showman as a ref.

2. He immediately after throwing the arm thrust, then thrusts a hand toward the play to signify a foul occured there, then puts his hands to his waist to call that the foul was a block. No time to look at another ref to get confirmation...this call was all his. This is just looking at his arms and body.

3. His eyes and head go from the play to the blocking call without looking elsewhere, it is impossible that he's looking for another ref to confirm his call. Not humanly possible (although I think Joey is a demon) and there is no hesitation between arm out to show basket good and arms to waist to show blocking foul. That is clearly, CLEARLY a blocking foul called by Joey without any help from other officials.

4. Nash said in his postgame that Joey said he came under Kobe as he lifted, and therefore it was a block.

5. If you are looking at Kobe's questionable look that the foul may have been on him, super slo mo of the slo mo shows that Kobe's eyes are looking in the backcourt as Crawford makes the blocking call, then he looks at Crawford and sees a foul being called. He doesn't know if its on him or Nash, as it was really THAT close. Kobe's reaction gives no clue, as he was out of the view of the actual call, and knew it was close to begin with. Good call by Crawford, IMO, and he was the ref with the best view of the action.

Pretty solid evidence, IMO, that only Joey made the call and it wasn't something that he looked to other refs for guidance on. It was a bang-bang play. This was at 3:15 of the tape in the 4th, if you want to review for yourself. You'll note that Joey acted alone. Still not sure about whether Oswald did though...that film is kind of grainy.

 

[D-Dogg]

On the Kwame/Raja foul no call I agree that could have been a loose ball foul. Raja was down on almost one knee at the time and nobody had possession. It could be incidental contact there, but could have been an easy call for a foul on Kwame. That could be a source of contention for Suns fans, sure, but a no-call there isn't foriegn to playoff bball...TT got away with one at about the same timeframe last game. If Raja had not been down to the ground already and had his own balance, I'm pretty sure Kwame would have pulled the foul. That's the BS "if it's late and close, let em play" mentality of NBA refs, which I disagree with. If's its a foul with a minute left in the first, it's a foul with a minute left in the fourth...that's the way I feel, but that isn't the way it goes. For better or worse...

 

[elindholm]

Officiating did not decide this game. On the replay of the Brown/Bell runover, it sort of looked like the ball had already dribbled away from Bell by the time of the most severe contact. From the only camera angle I've seen, it's impossible to tell when Bell lost the ball, because the angle of its movement is obscured by bodies.

If we're keeping score, at least two of the charging calls on Bryant were pretty suspect. Maybe if he doesn't have to sit at the end of the first half, the role players don't go on their run and give themselves the confidence to finish the game off an hour later. So if we're looking for calls that cost the Suns, maybe those are the ones we should be targeting.