Suns @ Warriors 10-22-18

[Phrazbit]

My favorite JJ comparison is Jimmy Butler. JJ is younger, right now, than Butler was as a rookie, Jimmy Butler was completely useless his first 2 seasons, he become a defensive contributor in his 3rd year and blossomed into a star his 4th.

Leonard didn't show star potential until his 3rd season and, again, was older than coming out of college.

I'm not saying JJ is going to be as good as either of those players, but I am saying, it takes time, JJ has shown WAAAAY too much talent to think he is expendable because he's still really inconsistent.

 

[JCSunsfan]

JC... late March last year, you wrote a self-described "sacrilegious" post that JJ was arguably very close in value to Booker.

"Why is Booker so much more valuable than Jackson? Jackson plays two ways and he is only a rookie. Jackson is arguably very close in value to Booker. We ought not trade either one of those guys."

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/summer-trades.259719/page-2#post-3678057

At the end of last season, you said you wouldn't even trade Jackson for Tatum.

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/what-would-it-take.265423/page-3#post-3710473

Three weeks ago, you talked about him possibly being our starting PG.

Hell, we could probably look back to just Game 1 this year to find you very happy with Jackson and his 18 points and wondering if Bridges will ever see the floor. Now two games later, you're ready to decide one of them is already expendable?

We ALL need to take a deeeeeeeeeep breath, me thinks. I fear a lot of us (me included on the fire in Ayton's belly) are prisoner of the moment right now. We have been DYING for this team to merely be watchable for almost decade and now that there's actually reason to watch, we want it all... and we want it NOW. But truth is the rebuilding has JUST FINALLY begun in earnest. No need to press the fast-forward button for anything but a dynamite PG while risking losing someone who all of us were sky-high on just a matter of months ago.

Yep. Guilty. I have a "new guy bias." My concern about JJ at the moment is that in the multitude of SF's he is going to get lost and his trade value diminished. To me, the deeper question is should we be keeping both JJ and Bridges or using one or the other to obtain a pg to balance out the roster. We are kind of in the same position that the Cleveland Cavaliers were in when they had Mark Price starting and rookie Kevin Johnson sitting on the bench and they really needed a pf.

As far as which one could be the one to be moved, that is an interesting discussion where both sides are going to have good arguments. Please, do not think that I think that one of them should be moved just to move the player.

We probably should have taken SGA in the draft instead of Bridges, even though both are going to be very good players. We just had a need. Drafting for need sometimes makes sense. But we have to go from where we are now.

Is there room on this team to develop Warren, Jackson and Bridges? If we have an opportunity for a good young point guard and they want one of those players--let's say we have an opportunity to get Brogdon--which one would you move? Warren is pretty much developed and he is clearly a quality 6th man going forward. So we probably keep him, although he was the player I would have moved last summer. I am not trying to make a case for one or the other right now. My present thought is JJ. That's all.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Is there room on this team to develop Warren, Jackson and Bridges? If we have an opportunity for a good young point guard and they want one of those players--let's say we have an opportunity to get Brogdon--which one would you move? Warren is pretty much developed and he is clearly a quality 6th man going forward. So we probably keep him, although he was the player I would have moved last summer. I am not trying to make a case for one or the other right now. My present thought is JJ. That's all.

There should be. I am quite confident that if we swapped rosters with the Spurs that all 3 would be developed, and maybe Bender, Okobo and Melton at the same time.

As for Brogdon, I think trading any of those 3 for a mediocre (at best) combo guard is a horrible return. He's better than Jackson or Bridges right now but I don't think he's anywhere close to equal value for Warren. And with Jackson and Bridges we'd be selling cheap just to bring in someone that can almost pretend to be a starting point guard (granted that's a clear step up from what we have). Keep in mind, they traded for Bledsoe for a reason and Eric is still logging the lion's share of starter PG minutes.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There should be. I am quite confident that if we swapped rosters with the Spurs that all 3 would be developed, and maybe Bender, Okobo and Melton at the same time.

As for Brogdon, I think trading any of those 3 for a mediocre (at best) combo guard is a horrible return. He's better than Jackson or Bridges right now but I don't think he's anywhere close to equal value for Warren. And with Jackson and Bridges we'd be selling cheap just to bring in someone that can almost pretend to be a starting point guard. Keep in mind, they traded for Bledsoe for a reason and Eric is still logging the lion's share of starter PG minutes.

Rozier? Kemba? In a package for Lillard? Brogdon was just the first example that popped into my mind.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Rozier? Kemba?

If we got any inkling that Kemba would stay, I'd put together a package for him that included picks and at least one young prospect. I know many say he would detract from Booker but I just don't see it. I think it would work similar to the way that Goran and Bledsoe worked. Between those two and Ayton, defenses would be hard pressed to double any of them.

I'd be reluctant to go after Rozier especially given rumors about his next contract plus the Brad Stephens effect.

 

[Hoop Head]

Is there room on this team to develop Warren, Jackson and Bridges? If we have an opportunity for a good young point guard and they want one of those players--let's say we have an opportunity to get Brogdon--which one would you move? Warren is pretty much developed and he is clearly a quality 6th man going forward. So we probably keep him, although he was the player I would have moved last summer. I am not trying to make a case for one or the other right now. My present thought is JJ. That's all.

I don't think we need to worry about developing Warren anymore. He's pretty close to who he'll be and the only that will hurt that is a major injury or being dropped from the rotation for some reason. I don't see him falling out of the rotation either. He just needs minutes to contribute, the others do need development in game and behind the scenes though.

There should be. I am quite confident that if we swapped rosters with the Spurs that all 3 would be developed, and maybe Bender, Okobo and Melton at the same time.

As for Brogdon, I think trading any of those 3 for a mediocre (at best) combo guard is a horrible return. He's better than Jackson or Bridges right now but I don't think he's anywhere close to equal value for Warren. And with Jackson and Bridges we'd be selling cheap just to bring in someone that can almost pretend to be a starting point guard (granted that's a clear step up from what we have). Keep in mind, they traded for Bledsoe for a reason and Eric is still logging the lion's share of starter PG minutes.

The Bucks also traded for Michael Carter Williams not long ago. Bledsoe was acquired by them to give Giannis more help. They thought he might be able to be the defender he was in LA if he played games that mattered but that didn't happen. Kidd didn't like Brogdan and was starting Gary Payton Jr. Management waived Payton so that he didn't see the court any longer and they were able to buy in on Bledsoe for pretty cheap.

I read an article about Kidd's firing that discusses the whole Payton situation. That was a minor thing based other issues Milwaukee management and Kidd had with each other.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yep. Guilty. I have a "new guy bias." My concern about JJ at the moment is that in the multitude of SF's he is going to get lost and his trade value diminished. To me, the deeper question is should we be keeping both JJ and Bridges or using one or the other to obtain a pg to balance out the roster. We are kind of in the same position that the Cleveland Cavaliers were in when they had Mark Price starting and rookie Kevin Johnson sitting on the bench and they really needed a pf.

Not sure that's the best comparison because when they traded KJ, Price was already averaging 17 ppg and 7 assists. He was becoming a very good, known quantity. Neither of our guys are anywhere near that level right now.

As far as which one could be the one to be moved, that is an interesting discussion where both sides are going to have good arguments. Please, do not think that I think that one of them should be moved just to move the player.

We probably should have taken SGA in the draft instead of Bridges, even though both are going to be very good players. We just had a need. Drafting for need sometimes makes sense. But we have to go from where we are now.

Is there room on this team to develop Warren, Jackson and Bridges? If we have an opportunity for a good young point guard and they want one of those players--let's say we have an opportunity to get Brogdon--which one would you move? Warren is pretty much developed and he is clearly a quality 6th man going forward. So we probably keep him, although he was the player I would have moved last summer. I am not trying to make a case for one or the other right now. My present thought is JJ. That's all.

I wouldn't move either one for Brogdon. Again, players CAN get better as they get older. Warren is a prime example of that. It took him what, four or five years to actually add that 3 ball to his game? If you're gonna move Jackson, we better be getting a young PG who has star upside potential, IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If we got any inkling that Kemba would stay, I'd put together a package for him that included picks and at least one young prospect. I know many say he would detract from Booker but I just don't see it. I think it would work similar to the way that Goran and Bledsoe worked. Between those two and Ayton, defenses would be hard pressed to double any of them.

I'd be reluctant to go after Rozier especially given rumors about his next contract plus the Brad Stephens effect.

Agreed on both.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Not sure that's the best comparison because when they traded KJ, Price was already averaging 17 ppg and 7 assists. He was becoming a very good, known quantity. Neither of our guys are anywhere near that level right now.



I wouldn't move either one for Brogdon. Again, players CAN get better as they get older. Warren is a prime example of that. It took him what, four or five years to actually add that 3 ball to his game? If you're gonna move Jackson, we better be getting a young PG who has star upside potential, IMO.

I would agree with that.

BTW. At this moment we have a 50/40/90 player, and its not Booker.

 

[Chaplin]

I would agree with that.

BTW. At this moment we have a 50/40/90 player, and its not Booker.

Oh my God. I can't believe you just posted that.

Look, I'm as happy as anyone that Warren SEEMS to have expanded his game by adding a deadly three point shot, but 3 games isn't enough to end my doubts that have been percolating for 5 seasons already. Cautiously optimistic, but 3 games don't define a player that's been around as long as he has. I'd wait at least 10 games before being at least a little confident he had turned the corner.

 

[SirStefan32]

Oh my God. I can't believe you just posted that.

Look, I'm as happy as anyone that Warren SEEMS to have expanded his game by adding a deadly three point shot, but 3 games isn't enough to end my doubts that have been percolating for 5 seasons already. Cautiously optimistic, but 3 games don't define a player that's been around as long as he has. I'd wait at least 10 games before being at least a little confident he had turned the corner.

Oh come on man, why do you have to piss in our cheerios? Let us have a 50/40/90 20ppg player other than Booker for a while!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Oh my God. I can't believe you just posted that.

Look, I'm as happy as anyone that Warren SEEMS to have expanded his game by adding a deadly three point shot, but 3 games isn't enough to end my doubts that have been percolating for 5 seasons already. Cautiously optimistic, but 3 games don't define a player that's been around as long as he has. I'd wait at least 10 games before being at least a little confident he had turned the corner.

Of course its silly. Its only three games. Hence "at this moment" acknowledging that it is likely not going to last. But it is fun to notice anyway. Lighten up a little Chap!

 

[95pro]

Mechanically he looks like a different guy, and he just seems more at ease shooting the 3.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Mechanically he looks like a different guy, and he just seems more at ease shooting the 3.

I agree with this. It oooks like part of his game now instead of him trying to force something.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I agree with this. It oooks like part of his game now instead of him trying to force something.

He is not forcing threes. He is taking them when they are open. But he has also been working hard on D too. 27 points in 24 minutes against the Warriors who do not have slouches for defenders. Warren has surprised me this year.

 

[Errntknght]

Bright spots this year so far:

1. TJ Warren. Putting up the 3 consistently and much better effort on D. Big improvement.
2. Booker. Stepped right in to scoring role. Still needs huge improvement on D.
3. Ayton. As advertised. Consistent. That is a big deal. Needs to find his way defensively.
4. Bridges. Good pickup. Highest PER on the team (small sample size in a suspect stat but still).

Meh:
1. Canaan is doing OK.
2. Okobo and Melton are non-existent.

Disappointments:
1. Ryan Anderson. Why is this guy still playing basketball.
2. Ariza. You would think a vet leader would put out more consistent effort.
3. Crawford. Why?
4. Bender. No comment needed.
5. Chandler. See Ryan Anderson.
6. Josh Jackson. One good game against Dallas. He should be better than this.

Regrets:
1. I would rather have Len than Chandler.
2. I would rather have Shaq than Crawford
3. I would rather have traded Josh Jackson over the summer for a good young point guard.

I agree across the board except about Len over Chandler - by some mysterious means Len would contaminate Ayton. I'd settle for more Holmes and less Chandler. (I know Len played his best ever under Triano but he was still Len!)

 

[Errntknght]

I will mention on another front that Warren shot 40% on 3's the year before last then plummeted to 27% last year. So getting very excited about his four game hot streak now is not wise. Reason for hope, yes. But nothing more.

 

[Hoop Head]

I will mention on another front that Warren shot 40% on 3's the year before last then plummeted to 27% last year. So getting very excited about his four game hot streak now is not wise. Reason for hope, yes. But nothing more.

He didn't shoot the same number of 3's. I know he's had good percentages before but when he averaged 1 attempt a game, those percentages meant very little. There's no doubt that he's improved his outside shot but to what degree is still up for debate. I think he'll finish with something around 35%, give or take 2%, and if he's averaging 4 or 5 attempts a game then that will be a good increase.