Szczerbiak

Accept Szczerbiak for Johnson?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 6.8%
  • No

    Votes: 49 66.2%
  • Only if the Wolves include a protected future first, then Yes

    Votes: 20 27.0%

  • Total voters
    74

elindholm

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Okay, real-world question here. If the Hawks deal completely falls apart and Johnson doesn't even sign an offer sheet there, and then if the Wolves swoop in and offer Szczerbiak for Johnson, do you take it? According to Hoopshype, he has $46 million over four years left on his deal ($10/$11/$12/$13 million each year). Realize that the option might be letting Johnson go for nothing, either this summer or next.
 

Mainstreet

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I understand there are several teams interested in JJ. I don't like the Szczerbiak move. I think JJ is worth much more.

If the Hawks had any authority to do anything now, I would take Pachulia, a first round pick or Diaw and the trade exception. I still think Pachulia can be moved within 24 hours after signing.

However, I'm sure other teams could offer much more to the suns than the Hawks or TimberWolves.

The Hawks should be voided in negotiating with JJ any further, because they do not have the authority do do so and it is not in the League's best interest to continue this charade.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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The Hawks should be voided in negotiating with JJ any further

I agree. Most likely they will face some sort of league sanction.
 

Gaddabout

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I would prefer JJ be moved to an Eastern Conference team. If he's going to beat us, he has to beat us for the big prize. None of this second-round vendetta stuff ... and JJ/Garnett would be a scary duo.
 

devilalum

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Wally World?


If the Suns trade JJ they should try to send him to the east coast.

JJ has to want to go to whatever team the Suns deal with so you should probably only consider teams that suck. Ones in which JJ will be the best player on a horrible team. This seems to be his preference.
 

Gaddabout

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elindholm said:
The Hawks should be voided in negotiating with JJ any further

I agree. Most likely they will face some sort of league sanction.

Why? They haven't signed a player. All they've done is position themselves to sign a player. Everything is verbal agreement so far, and there are no league rules against breaking a verbal agreement that I know of.

I know, I know, verbal agreements are binding in the U.S. I counter that we're talking about professional sports owners and athletes, not real people. Real people are governed by the law. Sports figures and celebrities are not. They are governed by media appeal.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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Everything is verbal agreement so far, and there are no league rules against breaking a verbal agreement that I know of.

Other reports have implied that the trade was already submitted to the league for approval. Part of the league's approval process is to get sign-off from each team's governor. That's why the delay was originally described as a "procedural" snag, rather than hesitation on one side or the other.

We don't know for sure, but that's my best guess based on everything I've read.
 

George O'Brien

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elindholm said:
Everything is verbal agreement so far, and there are no league rules against breaking a verbal agreement that I know of.

Other reports have implied that the trade was already submitted to the league for approval. Part of the league's approval process is to get sign-off from each team's governor. That's why the delay was originally described as a "procedural" snag, rather than hesitation on one side or the other.

We don't know for sure, but that's my best guess based on everything I've read.

I agree. It sure sounds like there was a written agreement which has now been unilaterally voided. Maybe the Suns can suie because the Hawks caused the Suns harm. :rolleyes:
 

ASUCHRIS

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The only thing scarier than JJ for 70 would be Wally for 66....
 

Chaplin

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elindholm said:
Everything is verbal agreement so far, and there are no league rules against breaking a verbal agreement that I know of.

Other reports have implied that the trade was already submitted to the league for approval. Part of the league's approval process is to get sign-off from each team's governor. That's why the delay was originally described as a "procedural" snag, rather than hesitation on one side or the other.

We don't know for sure, but that's my best guess based on everything I've read.

This was debated ad nauseum on another thread. It makes no sense for a trade to go to the league office without approval from the governor of one of the teams, which coincidentally is WHERE the paperwork is supposed to come from in the first place!
 
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elindholm

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This was debated ad nauseum on another thread. It makes no sense for a trade to go to the league office without approval from the governor of one of the teams, which coincidentally is WHERE the paperwork is supposed to come from in the first place!

Yes, I read that thread, but it was clear that no conclusion was reached. It's all speculation. What is the precise approval process for a trade? Which pieces of paper go where when, awaiting which signatures in which order? At what point do teams announce that they have a deal, and what has to happen after that in order to finalize everything? Of course we don't know, and no amount of philosophical debate is going to inform us.
 

Chaplin

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elindholm said:
This was debated ad nauseum on another thread. It makes no sense for a trade to go to the league office without approval from the governor of one of the teams, which coincidentally is WHERE the paperwork is supposed to come from in the first place!

Yes, I read that thread, but it was clear that no conclusion was reached. It's all speculation. What is the precise approval process for a trade? Which pieces of paper go where when, awaiting which signatures in which order? At what point do teams announce that they have a deal, and what has to happen after that in order to finalize everything? Of course we don't know, and no amount of philosophical debate is going to inform us.

What about common sense? Obviously, common sense is in question in this whole ridiculous affair, but still--how can the governor's office send the paperwork to the league without the governor himself signing off on it? I have a feeling we'll probably NEVER know exactly what happened.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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I agree that common sense would dictate that the team's governor should sign off on it before it goes to the league. However, let me give you a case that's kind of similar:

When a college professor comes up for tenure, there's a committee that meets to make the decision, working with people in the candidate's department. (The exact system depends on the school, so I'll just say how it works where I teach.) Eventually those people -- the ones who are best qualified to make an informed decision -- decide what to do. If they want to keep the candidate, the committee passes that decision to the college president, and it's up to him to approve it.

At that point, the decision is announced. But technically it's not final yet, because the trustees have to sign off on it. Generally, their acceptance of the committee's decision, plus the president's approval, is routine, but you never know. Something strange could come up. Most people at the college don't even know who the trustees are, and it would make no sense for them to overturn a decision -- but since they oversee the college's money, the final call is theirs.

Since we don't know how the NBA works, it seems possible to me that it's a similar situation with respect to trades. Remember, most owners are pretty hands-off, and sometimes the "owner" is a faceless corporation, like the Knicks and MSG. I can imagine that, since it is the GM (or president of basketball operations, or whoever) that is responsible for engineering trades, it's that person's signature that closes the deal before it's sent to the league for approval. It could be that, at that point, the league then contacts each team's governor -- whoever it is -- just to check, "You're good with this, right?" And since the governor almost always says, "Sure, whatever," no one really thinks much of this step. It's like the college example: the GM is the committee who makes the decision, the league office is the president who approves it, and the governor is the trustees who ultimately sign the checks.

Of course I don't know if this is really how it works, but it strikes me as possible. It wouldn't be a very logical system, but who knows.
 

Chaplin

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That's interesting, actually.

But in this case, I don't think it's that simple--scratch that, "simple" is probably not the right word. :)

You're right, it is a hierarchy similar to what you are saying about the trustees and everything. But it was reported that the league had the trade in hand and it was being held up by a "procedural issue". Keep in mind this information came from Billy Knight, the GM of the Hawks, NOT the NBA's commissioner's office.

While what you say is certainly possible, it seems highly, highly unlikely because the NBA offices are supposed to receive all paperwork from the governor, it doesn't seem realistic to assume that Belkin's office sent it through to Stern without his signature.

My guess is that this whole line of questioning makes no difference and it was probably an error on either Knight's or ESPN's part that said it was in the league office awaiting approval.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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But it was reported that the league had the trade in hand and it was being held up by a "procedural issue". Keep in mind this information came from Billy Knight, the GM of the Hawks, NOT the NBA's commissioner's office.

Ah, I hadn't heard that. I thought it was a league report.

Oh well. :p
 
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elindholm said:
Okay, real-world question here. If the Hawks deal completely falls apart and Johnson doesn't even sign an offer sheet there, and then if the Wolves swoop in and offer Szczerbiak for Johnson, do you take it? According to Hoopshype, he has $46 million over four years left on his deal ($10/$11/$12/$13 million each year). Realize that the option might be letting Johnson go for nothing, either this summer or next.



Something or someone else would need to be included to make the trade work. As a BYC player, JJ would count 1/2 his contract as far as the trade is concerned. If JJ gets the max $12 mil deal, we could only accept a player within 125% + $100K of $6mil. Since Wally makes $10mil...and both teams are over the cap...the trade could not be approved.
 

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Chaplin said:
What about common sense? Obviously, common sense is in question in this whole ridiculous affair, but still--how can the governor's office send the paperwork to the league without the governor himself signing off on it? I have a feeling we'll probably NEVER know exactly what happened.

Common sense would probably also dictate that the GM or whoever was negotiating would make sure that the person with veto power (governor) was on board with the deal. The bottom line is the Hawks prove that common sense is not so common.
 

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I think it would be stupid to pair up Johnson and Garnett, it would instantly make them a contender and threaten our chances of winning a championship.

No way I do this deal.

 

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If that was the only Trade available, I think I rather let him go, for nothing... :)
 

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wilecoyotesupergenius said:
Something or someone else would need to be included to make the trade work. As a BYC player, JJ would count 1/2 his contract as far as the trade is concerned. If JJ gets the max $12 mil deal, we could only accept a player within 125% + $100K of $6mil. Since Wally makes $10mil...and both teams are over the cap...the trade could not be approved.


Right. The only way for the Suns to trade JJ at his contract demands to another team over the cap is if they include either Nash or Marion in the deal. When the total hits around the 25 million mark, the 25% exception actually becomes enough to offset the BYC issues.

The other option is to involve a third team, where at least 3 large salaries are being exchanged. At that point it is possible to move the pieces around so that the trade will work (an example is the Sac/Bos/Phx idea I threw up a few days ago).

Other than that we need to deal with a team under the cap.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Back to this thread:

I actually talked about this idea for a while when I was mentioning JJ/Marion/Picks for Garnett/Wally. I think that Wally would excel in the Suns system. He would easily shoot as well as Joe did from 3. Assuming he was healthy, his salary would be justified almost.

However, I wouldn't take his deal on unless it was part of a Garnett package. The cons are simply to much. Wally has a team chemestry problem and an injury issue. Why take on the salary while strengthing a conference rival?
 

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Wally is injury prone and not a good defender.

We really need a second go-to guy next to Amare if we trade away Joe. That's the reason I recurrently bring up my favored idea of Marion for Pierce. Well, we actually could do a Marion+ JJ for Pierce and Davis + picks if JJ and Ainge could get over their "rift". But I doubt Ainge would give JJ max to begin with.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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I am not against the idea of bringing in Pierce actually. I just don't want to do it at the expense of Marion.

I tried to come up with some trades involving enough salary to make a sign and trade work, I just couldn't do it unfortunately.

Combining Joe and Marion would make things possible for a two team deal however I would be very reluctant to do it without getting an undeniable superstar back - ala Garnett.

I guess Boston could be a team to make me change my mind though. They have so much young talent that it would be interesting what else they would offer.
 
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