Take this to the bank

[spanky1]

It appears that our best D-Lineman (for better or for worse) last year, Dennis Johnson, is on his last legs with us. I, for one, think this is a travesty. Here is a guy who is still young, was showing improvement year over year since being drafted three years ago, who has excelled at every level of organized football he has played at and who, with good coaching, might turn out to be a very solid DE........certainly better than Wakefield.

If we don't want him, for goodness sake offer him up to the Rams and get a draft pick next year in exchange. You know darn well that Mac and Marmie will claim him off waivers in a NY minute.

 

[Russ Smith]

It appears that our best D-Lineman (for better or for worse) last year, Dennis Johnson, is on his last legs with us. I, for one, think this is a travesty. Here is a guy who is still young, was showing improvement year over year since being drafted three years ago, who has excelled at every level of organized football he has played at and who, with good coaching, might turn out to be a very solid DE........certainly better than Wakefield.

If we don't want him, for goodness sake offer him up to the Rams and get a draft pick next year in exchange. You know darn well that Mac and Marmie will claim him off waivers in a NY minute.

I felt the same with the Gilmore move but there is a valid point that was made that a team won't deal for a guy they know we're going to cut, unless they're convinced they won't be able to claim him. With Gilmore, Miami may have been the only team wanting to claim him, with Johnson I suspect there would be more interest.

It does appear clear he's gone though, Pace might join him.

 

[Cardinal Bob]

I don't understand why Green just cuts players (like Kendall, for example) that may have value to other teams without trying to trade them first. Maybe he has and we just don't hear about it, but it seems to me that Kendall may have brought some sort of pick in return. Maybe DJ would too, I don't know. But it'll piss me off to just see him cut, and then go excel with some other team.

 

[spanky1]

I felt the same with the Gilmore move but there is a valid point that was made that a team won't deal for a guy they know we're going to cut, unless they're convinced they won't be able to claim him. With Gilmore, Miami may have been the only team wanting to claim him, with Johnson I suspect there would be more interest.

It does appear clear he's gone though, Pace might join him.

They can't cut Pace this early in his career.........seriously, it would be a very bad business decision. If someone did put a bug in Green's ear regarding Shelton (and logically, we have assumed that this wasn't the case), you can be sure they would regarding Pace.

 

[football karma]

I think its very possible that us Cardinal fans have been watching talent poor teams for so long that mediocre talent has begun to look like good talent.

I am willing to bet that if the Cardinals signed a defensive end off the street and started him for 16 games, he would end up with 3 sacks

 

[spanky1]

I think its very possible that us Cardinal fans have been watching talent poor teams for so long that mediocre talent has begun to look like good talent.

I am willing to bet that if the Cardinals signed a defensive end off the street and started him for 16 games, he would end up with 3 sacks

You do make a good point here. I'll be the first to agree (in hindsight) that Pace was drafted too high......but even if he's only a legitimate early 3rd round pick, it is far too early to write him off.

My assessment of Johnson's skills may be too high however?

 

[Russ Smith]

They can't cut Pace this early in his career.........seriously, it would be a very bad business decision. If someone did put a bug in Green's ear regarding Shelton (and logically, we have assumed that this wasn't the case), you can be sure they would regarding Pace.

Boy that took awhile but I finally found my ESPN link to rookie contracts and here's Pace's.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/nfc/draftsignings2003.html

1b. DE Calvin Pace, Wake Forest (No. 18 overall): Signing bonus: $3,000,000. Base salaries: $675,000 (2003); $843,800 (2004, plus $2,100,000 option bonus); $1,012,500 (2005); $1,181,300 (2006); $811,250 (2007). Note: If teams exercises option bonus, base salaries reduced to $305,000 (2004); $473,750 (2005); $642,500 (2006). Total: five years, $8,007,500. Cap charge: $1,275,000.

So he's got 2.4 million in bonus left, but as you can see he has a 2.1 million option bonus that is presumably due if he makes the roster. So the Cards will pay him 3 million this year if they keep him, if they cut him they save that entire amount, and take a caphit.

By my rough figuring his cap value this year is just about 2 million,

843 K in salary, 600K for prorated signing bonus, 525K for the optional bonus(wasn't sure how to count that so I decided to divide it by the remaining 4 years and prorate), comes out to 1.968 million or roughly 2 million. Then you subtract 538K since it says if he gets the option bonus his salary comes down so you get 1.44 million in cap hit

Even if we eat his whole 2.4 remaining signing bonus in one year by cutting him we "only" lose 1 million. If we can take that hit over 2 years(I forget the cutoff date on that) we're essentially breaking even by cutting him and avoiding that option bonus.

Anybody like Ant Steve or another capologist want to take a crack at this?

 

[football karma]

Spanky,

my reference was to Dennis Johnson. Vaguely reminiscent of Thomas Burke, a college pass rushing terror and Cardinal 3rd round pick that also did very little in the pros.

I agree its a bit too early to write off Pace. If nothing else, he seems like he could be a decent left side end

 

[Russ Smith]

I think its very possible that us Cardinal fans have been watching talent poor teams for so long that mediocre talent has begun to look like good talent.

I am willing to bet that if the Cardinals signed a defensive end off the street and started him for 16 games, he would end up with 3 sacks

Not last year. Look at who he started next to as a rookie playing with an injury that we didn't know about at the time.

Look at the situations, he rarely gets the advantage of having opponents in a must pass situation because we're always behind, he doesn't get to play on just pass downs (so he can pass rush fresh against tired OL's like a 3rd down pass rushing specialist gets to), he doesn't get any matchup advantages because the guys around him were just as bad as he was, and the secondary stunk too.

I think at LDE facing RT's his numbers would have been better, not like Suggs' but better.

I really wonder if this is all about that option bonus, that Green feels it makes no sense to commit to the guy if he's not convinced he's going to be that good?

 

[clif]

I don't understand why Green just cuts players (like Kendall, for example) that may have value to other teams without trying to trade them first. Maybe he has and we just don't hear about it, but it seems to me that Kendall may have brought some sort of pick in return. Maybe DJ would too, I don't know. But it'll piss me off to just see him cut, and then go excel with some other team.

Teams just cant make trades like everyone seems to think. Teams will not trade for "mediocre talent" when they know they can claim the guy off waivers. I know Pete MAY be better that mediocre talent, but with his injury history, why would you trade for him when you can get him off the streets? How many trades can you recall being made for a center/ guard with no pro bowl experience and history of season ending injuries? This day in age really only "Big" names get traded.

 

[Cardinal Bob]

I hear ya', clif, and I know trades in the NFL are kinda rare (unlike baseball), but it seems like a guy like Kendall would at least have some value on the trade market.

I don't think anyone else we've released would have any trade value though.

 

[seesred]

Becuase of the way the league is set up there are very few trades. This year it appears there have been more than past years. I don't know the exact number but maybe there were 3-5 trades this year. Teams don't trade for marginal players, they pick them up on waivers. Unless you have a situation where you have an many great players all with the same position that someone like the Cards who want a RB teams will wait and pay minimum .

GBR
40

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't understand why Green just cuts players (like Kendall, for example) that may have value to other teams without trying to trade them first. Maybe he has and we just don't hear about it, but it seems to me that Kendall may have brought some sort of pick in return. Maybe DJ would too, I don't know. But it'll piss me off to just see him cut, and then go excel with some other team.

does no one else on this board recognize the fact that players are RARELY traded in this day and age. particularly crappy ones. who the hell is gonna give up an asset for players who had potential with the cards? c'mon. dj? he had what, 3 SACKS LAST YEAR?!? that's not potential people, that's just playing time. he sucks. i completely trust this coaching staff in its talent evaluation. at least a hell of a lot more than i did any previous staff. and gilmore? russ, you're losing credibility buddy if you think we could have gotten anything other than a wet ham salad sandwich for him . . .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think its very possible that us Cardinal fans have been watching talent poor teams for so long that mediocre talent has begun to look like good talent.

I am willing to bet that if the Cardinals signed a defensive end off the street and started him for 16 games, he would end up with 3 sacks

SOMEONE DOES GET IT!!!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not last year. Look at who he started next to as a rookie playing with an injury that we didn't know about at the time.

Look at the situations, he rarely gets the advantage of having opponents in a must pass situation because we're always behind, he doesn't get to play on just pass downs (so he can pass rush fresh against tired OL's like a 3rd down pass rushing specialist gets to), he doesn't get any matchup advantages because the guys around him were just as bad as he was, and the secondary stunk too.

I think at LDE facing RT's his numbers would have been better, not like Suggs' but better.

I really wonder if this is all about that option bonus, that Green feels it makes no sense to commit to the guy if he's not convinced he's going to be that good?

that's a lot of excuses for 1 sack from pace and 3 from dj.

 

[Skkorpion]

Dennis Johnson has not performed in the camps. What more do you want?

Denny Green is not an idiot. He gets a one year honeymoon, so he's taking full advantage of it.

 

[clif]

does no one else on this board recognize the fact that players are RARELY traded in this day and age. particularly crappy ones. who the hell is gonna give up an asset for players who had potential with the cards? c'mon. dj? he had what, 3 SACKS LAST YEAR?!? that's not potential people, that's just playing time. he sucks. i completely trust this coaching staff in its talent evaluation. at least a hell of a lot more than i did any previous staff. and gilmore? russ, you're losing credibility buddy if you think we could have gotten anything other than a wet ham salad sandwich for him . . .

... old saying l loveable losers.... i dont think these guys are loveable though.

 

[clif]

Dennis Johnson has not performed in the camps. What more do you want?

Denny Green is not an idiot. He gets a one year honeymoon, so he's taking full advantage of it.

... If the guy was player .. he would at least get some snaps.. He is toast

 

[joeshmo]

does no one else on this board recognize the fact that players are RARELY traded in this day and age.

Not to mention that most of the trades that do happen are ones for players taht are not even shopped around. For example last week Carolina called Dallas about an olinemen they wanted, Dallas didnt call Carolina shopping the guy and they got the deal done.

Plus there is a lot of trade talk that we dont even hear about, so most of the time we dont even know if we were or were not trying to trade a player.

 

[jvanhill]

There is no trade value whatsoever for someone every team knows is on the cutting block, whether or not they are performing to expectations. Why trade for something that you can get in a week or two anyway? The only way a trade would work is if the team trying to acquire him didn't think they had a chance upon his release.

Not to bash Pace or Johnson, but I don't exactly expect to see teams drooling over having a chance at them, though I am sure both of them will most likely find a place to play.

 

[Russ Smith]

There is no trade value whatsoever for someone every team knows is on the cutting block, whether or not they are performing to expectations. Why trade for something that you can get in a week or two anyway? The only way a trade would work is if the team trying to acquire him didn't think they had a chance upon his realease.

Not to bash Pace or Johnson, but I don't exactly expect to see teams drooling over having a chance at them, though I am sure both of them will most likely find a place to play.

That's actually the whole point, most teams who decide they want to get rid of someone, showcase him for a trade. When you bury him, you make it awfully hard to trade.

There are still trades by the way, hell Denver benched Deltha O'Neal,converted him to offense, and was still able to trade him to Cincy.

I'm not saying DJ has a huge trade value, just that I bet there's more teams who would claim him, than claimed Gilmore, if he gets cut.

 

[clif]

That's actually the whole point, most teams who decide they want to get rid of someone, showcase him for a trade. When you bury him, you make it awfully hard to trade.

There are still trades by the way, hell Denver benched Deltha O'Neal,converted him to offense, and was still able to trade him to Cincy.

I'm not saying DJ has a huge trade value, just that I bet there's more teams who would claim him, than claimed Gilmore, if he gets cut.

gotta make the salary work and I think teams more often than not find it easier to just release the guy than take on someone elses salary and sucky player.

 

[jvanhill]

That's actually the whole point, most teams who decide they want to get rid of someone, showcase him for a trade. When you bury him, you make it awfully hard to trade.

There are still trades by the way, hell Denver benched Deltha O'Neal,converted him to offense, and was still able to trade him to Cincy.

I'm not saying DJ has a huge trade value, just that I bet there's more teams who would claim him, than claimed Gilmore, if he gets cut.

I understood what the point was, but if you and I and every one else on these boards know these two are goners, any team who wants them (if any) also knows this. Which brings back the question, why trade when you know the kid is gonna be cut? Unless you don't think you have a chance at him, why trade away something of yours to get him?

There are certain circumstances where trades work, but I dont think I have seen too many trades for players that are going to be cut from the team they are on, unless it is a salary cap or player/coach disagreement.

 

[Russ Smith]

russ, you're losing credibility buddy if you think we could have gotten anything other than a wet ham salad sandwich for him . . .

What I meant was that there will be more than one team looking at Johnson if we cut him. With Gilmore I suspect Miami was the only team who even considered him.

Trades are rare but they do happen, if we can trade Thomas Jones, and Denver could trade Deltha O'Neal, I'd like to think we at least TRY to trade some of these former starters who are buried right now.

As long as the money works.

 

[Russ Smith]

gotta make the salary work and I think teams more often than not find it easier to just release the guy than take on someone elses salary and sucky player.

Don't follow. you cut the guy, you're still paying someone a salary, and with us that player is likely not any better than DJ was. He's not making THAT much.

So far we've cut Gilmore(totally agreed) and signed free agent wr's like Collins and Scottie ANderson, one quit on his team in camp, the other didn't pass our physical. So it's not like we're actually upgrading our talent this way.

What we're really doing is getting rid of guys Green didn't want, in the case of Gilmore and Kendall I understand and agree. I'm not convinced Ross Kolodziej will do anything this year to justify making the team over Dennis Johnson if that proves to be the case.