Take this to the bank

[clif]

Clif I am not talking about guys who are already starters. King, Wilson, and Wells, were starters. So ok, I will give him credit on Gerald Hayes. (Although his upside was widely talked about prior to Green accepting this position) so he has taken one guy and made him into a starter-which BTW, isnt even official yet. I dont believe Hayes is a starter come to think of it??

Nevermind then!~


EDIT: BTW, a lot of oaches dont start rookies. For some reason, and I guess its the perrenial losing, we Cards fan expects all rookies to come in and have Quan-like seasons or we start labeling them busts!

Yeah and we expect our coaches to come in and make a miracle happen.. .. we expect them to instantly make, sub par at best, players into all pro players in 3 weeks. so when that doesnt happen.. we assume the coach is not teaching!

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah, Pace could really take care of this himself. I'd love to see him just demolish the T and get a sack. Or, just blow right by him. As a first rounder, he should've done one or the other at least a couple of times by now. He just hasn't.

Not since last preseason unfortunately.

I still think he's too good of an athlete to not get better, I just hope he's getting better here and not cut and doing it elsewhere.

But I do wonder how that option bonus plays into all this?

 

[maddogkf]

Dennis Johnson has not performed in the camps. What more do you want?

Denny Green is not an idiot. He gets a one year honeymoon, so he's taking full advantage of it.

vf, is that you?













for me

 

[Russ Smith]

Good points.

I think Davis has always had the ability to be a pro bowl o-lineman so I am not sure any 'coaching' by Green and the boys has done much. As for Wilson, jury is still out. He had a good 1st quarter the other night but is still looking for the big hit too much.

Although I do include Pace in this I also include DJ, Renaldo Hill, Quentin Harris, Wendell Bryant, and to a lesser extent Jason McAddley. I think they all had/have talent. I am just waiting for this great 'Coaching Messiah' we all thought was coming.

I will continue to wait.

I'm really anxious to see BIg at LT although in a 3-4 he's going to see a not so great pass rusher. But my guess is when we start seeing some good speed rushers he'll struggle.

I hear you, part of what DG was hired to do was "coach up" existing players. If you cut guys who have talent instead of coaching, I'm not sure that's good.

To make an analogy, John Thompson used to constantly brag that every player who played 4 years at Georgetown had graduated, what he conveniently left out, was that every player who was in danger of NOT graduating(Anthony Jones, Michael Graham etc) was "forced out" by Thompson. he'd basically insist he wouldn't play them if they didn't transfer.

Sure he's being tough about his academic standards, but he was also "protecting" his perfect graduation record instead of "coaching" the players to work harder in the classroom. Sort of made the stat seem a bit fishy.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Yeah and we expect our coaches to come in and make a miracle happen.. .. we expect them to instantly make, sub par at best, players into all pro players in 3 weeks. so when that doesnt happen.. we assume the coach is not teaching!

wrong Holden McNeil

He has had since late february not 3 weeks. He has cut or benched good players (Kendell , Shelton) or he has (apparently) given up on guys who need a little teaching: Bryant, Pace, DJ, McAddley, Hill etc

I said I would wait and see if the 'Teaching Messiah' we all pronounced Green as, is coming or not.....

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I'm really anxious to see BIg at LT although in a 3-4 he's going to see a not so great pass rusher. But my guess is when we start seeing some good speed rushers he'll struggle.

I hear you, part of what DG was hired to do was "coach up" existing players. If you cut guys who have talent instead of coaching, I'm not sure that's good.

To make an analogy, John Thompson used to constantly brag that every player who played 4 years at Georgetown had graduated, what he conveniently left out, was that every player who was in danger of NOT graduating(Anthony Jones, Michael Graham etc) was "forced out" by Thompson. he'd basically insist he wouldn't play them if they didn't transfer.

Sure he's being tough about his academic standards, but he was also "protecting" his perfect graduation record instead of "coaching" the players to work harder in the classroom. Sort of made the stat seem a bit fishy.

And perhaps I am being a bit hasty, but if the guys I mentioned are cut or get zero playing time I would be hard pressed to beleive it is because none of them have any worth to this team. I could be wrong, but thats the way it appears.

Couple that with the rumour we heard about Bidwill telling DG not to cut guys like Shelton (also keep in mind Ray Thompson was going to be cut as well nay for an 11th hour meeting) it just seems Green wants to gut this team instead of coaching some of them up!

 

[clif]

wrong Holden McNeil

He has had since late february not 3 weeks. He has cut or benched good players (Kendell , Shelton) or he has (apparently) given up on guys who need a little teaching: Bryant, Pace, DJ, McAddley, Hill etc

I said I would wait and see if the 'Teaching Messiah' we all pronounced Green as, is coming or not.....

how much stock do you put in mini camps? Did you really expect such a dramatic turnaround in 2 preseason games? I for one never said he was a great "teacher" I personally dont put much stock into something like that. I feel you either got it or you dont. It is about talent evaluation. Finding players that can play. Of course a little technique here or a little lesson there... but will it make a player faster? will it make a player more hungry? Will it make a player want to get stronger in the offseason? You find players that will fit into what you are trying to do...if they dont then they are gone. This is not the farm system. These players are payed to perform. Not be babied and made excuses for. These guys need to step up...dont wait for the coach to "teach" you how to play.

Go ahead and wait.. give it sometime... all I am saying is dont assume the coach is the reason these players wont get any better.

 

[joeshmo]

wrong Holden McNeil

He has had since late february not 3 weeks. He has cut or benched good players (Kendell , Shelton) or he has (apparently) given up on guys who need a little teaching: Bryant, Pace, DJ, McAddley, Hill etc

I said I would wait and see if the 'Teaching Messiah' we all pronounced Green as, is coming or not.....

Why are you putting Hill into this debate. He has the #3 spot locked up. Should he be higher then Macklin or Starks? How has Green given up on him. If green had given up on him he would have tried harder to bring in more CB's, but he hasnt.

As for having since Feb, that to is wrong. Was green here yah, but was he able to teach and go to practices with any of those guys, no, it is against the rules. The real teaching didnt start until the OTA's. So Green has had a little over 3 months not 3 weeks and not 7 months. But all of that is not even the case. Why do you expect to see a 100% turn around on all of the underachievers in 1 offseason. Did anyone stop to think that some of these guys were huge projects to begin with. Pace, DJ, and McAddley were all considered huge projects when they were drafted.

As for demoting Shelton he came to camp 50 lbs over weight and is still playing injured, you want him to be a starter? Come on he showed just why he should be benched in the one preseason game he did play in, he isnt ready to play yet. The guy is injured of course he will be benched, why cant people get past that.

Rome wasnt built in a day poeple and DJ, Pace, Bryant are not going to be pro bowler or even starters in a day either. None of them are cut yet so lets stop putting the cart before the horse and bashing Green for "apparently" wanting to cut them or giving up on them, when neither has happened yet.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Not since last preseason unfortunately.

I still think he's too good of an athlete to not get better, I just hope he's getting better here and not cut and doing it elsewhere.

But I do wonder how that option bonus plays into all this?

If pace had shown anything as a pass rusher last season, then maybe I would come to his defense.

But he just got dominated. He was ok against the run, but I can count on one hand the number of times he even got close to the QB. I didn't expect 20 sacks, but three would have been cool. He's got to contribute more this season, or theres no reason to keep him on the roster (sorry Calvin! go for it in the game man!)

There is such a huge difference compared to last years DEs and watching Berry play. On 9 plays out of 10 that I watched him rush the passer against SD, he beat his man, at least to some degree.

 

[joeshmo]

Couple that with the rumour we heard about Bidwill telling DG not to cut guys like Shelton (also keep in mind Ray Thompson was going to be cut as well nay for an 11th hour meeting) it just seems Green wants to gut this team instead of coaching some of them up!

First the Shelton Rumor was already pointed out as being crap.

Second Green didnt want to cut Thompson. Thompson wanted to be cut becuase we are with holding some of his bonus for getting suspended. I for one will give Green some major props for squashing the whole issue and talking Thompson down from his anger.

 

[clif]

Why are you putting Hill into this debate. He has the #3 spot locked up. Should he be higher then Macklin or Starks? How has Green given up on him. If green had given up on him he would have tried harder to bring in more CB's, but he hasnt.

As for having since Feb, that to is wrong. Was green here yah, but was he able to teach and go to practices with any of those guys, no, it is against the rules. The real teaching didnt start until the OTA's. So Green has had a little over 3 months not 3 weeks and not 7 months. But all of that is not even the case. Why do you expect to see a 100% turn around on all of the underachievers in 1 offseason. Did anyone stop to think that some of these guys were huge projects to begin with. Pace, DJ, and McAddley were all considered huge projects when they were drafted.

As for demoting Shelton he came to camp 50 lbs over weight and is still playing injured, you want him to be a starter? Come on he showed just why he should be benched in the one preseason game he did play in, he isnt ready to play yet. The guy is injured of course he will be benched, why cant people get past that.

Rome wasnt built in a day poeple and DJ, Pace, Bryant are not going to be pro bowler or even starters in a day either. None of them are cut yet so lets stop putting the cart before the horse and bashing Green for "apparently" wanting to cut them or giving up on them, when neither has happened yet.

and I agree %100.... BTW my 3 week comment was about training camp specifically.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

If pace had shown anything as a pass rusher last season, then maybe I would come to his defense.

But he just got dominated. He was ok against the run, but I can count on one hand the number of times he even got close to the QB. I didn't expect 20 sacks, but three would have been cool. He's got to contribute more this season, or theres no reason to keep him on the roster (sorry Calvin! go for it in the game man!)

There is such a huge difference compared to last years DEs and watching Berry play. On 9 plays out of 10 that I watched him rush the passer against SD, he beat his man, at least to some degree.

12 QB hurries I believe

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Why are you putting Hill into this debate. He has the #3 spot locked up. Should he be higher then Macklin or Starks? How has Green given up on him. If green had given up on him he would have tried harder to bring in more CB's, but he hasnt.

As for having since Feb, that to is wrong. Was green here yah, but was he able to teach and go to practices with any of those guys, no, it is against the rules. The real teaching didnt start until the OTA's. So Green has had a little over 3 months not 3 weeks and not 7 months. But all of that is not even the case. Why do you expect to see a 100% turn around on all of the underachievers in 1 offseason. Did anyone stop to think that some of these guys were huge projects to begin with. Pace, DJ, and McAddley were all considered huge projects when they were drafted.

As for demoting Shelton he came to camp 50 lbs over weight and is still playing injured, you want him to be a starter? Come on he showed just why he should be benched in the one preseason game he did play in, he isnt ready to play yet. The guy is injured of course he will be benched, why cant people get past that.

Rome wasnt built in a day poeple and DJ, Pace, Bryant are not going to be pro bowler or even starters in a day either. None of them are cut yet so lets stop putting the cart before the horse and bashing Green for "apparently" wanting to cut them or giving up on them, when neither has happened yet.

When was the first extra mini camp that the Cards got for having a new coach? Ok March was it? I am not sure. Whenever that was is the amount of time he has had. Also Bryant was taking classes and Pace had a hernia so neither participated much during that time.

Either way, Like I said, I will wait and see what happens, but lets get some of them some playing time here.

I dont know if Green has neccessarily give up on anyone, but by his actions (as I stated in an earlier post) cuts, playing his guys, relegating these players to 3rd string, it appears that way.

I just dont see this great teacher we all were expecting.

 

[Snakester]

It appears that our best D-Lineman (for better or for worse) last year, Dennis Johnson, is on his last legs with us. I, for one, think this is a travesty. Here is a guy who is still young, was showing improvement year over year since being drafted three years ago, who has excelled at every level of organized football he has played at and who, with good coaching, might turn out to be a very solid DE........certainly better than Wakefield.

If we don't want him, for goodness sake offer him up to the Rams and get a draft pick next year in exchange. You know darn well that Mac and Marmie will claim him off waivers in a NY minute.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I thought he was coming along well at left end last year. With Wakefield out 6-8 weeks, Johnson should still make the team.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It's hard to defend the Cardinal players.Let's face it,they're not that good.I'm talking about the guys Green inherited.If Calvin Pace stinks then cut him.I don't care if he was a 1st round pick.There's alot of 1st round busts.If Green can know that Pace is dog meat then he's outta here.Same with DJ.It's not surprising that Green is anointing his players as starters.Those are the guys he wanted and the ones he believes have the potential to turn this around. I read today that Butch Davis in Cleveland may,for the first time,have to cut one of HIS draft picks that he has made.That guy is Darnell Sanders,a 4th round pick from OSU, because he's battling out for the 4th TE spot.Coaches are going to go into battle with players they want,not someone's else's trash.

 

[ajcardfan]

12 QB hurries I believe

Look, the QB running across the field after the game to shake his hand does not count as a "hurry".

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Look, the QB running across the field after the game to shake his hand does not count as a "hurry".

Whooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

In your FACE LVcard!!























kidding

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Look, the QB running across the field after the game to shake his hand does not count as a "hurry".

Sure it does...ask any of the Cards d-lineman.


BY the way and I think it was 17 hurries

 

[ajcardfan]

Sure it does...ask any of the Cards d-lineman.


BY the way and I think it was 17 hurries

I'll be rooting for him to step up and do something tonight.

 

[perivolaki]

what i mean is it easier with less hassle than trying to trade a guy when most teams wont give up anything of interest. As for Ross... i think it is a situation that he may be a hard worker who will cherish a second chance ( or fifth ). I dont know if there is evidence, but what if DJ didnt put in the neccessary work in the offseason? I have not heard either way, but it is clear the DG favors players with high motors and a desire to work hard and work through adversity. I would argue that point based on the players that are starters as opposed to ones that are 2nd or 3rd string. It may not be talent but a matter of working hard and trying to get better at this point.

You're starting to scare me clif. I agree with you way to often.

 

[perivolaki]

of course he should get playing time. But playing time is dictated by what you do in practice... I would SPECULATE that he has not done much in practice to deserve alot of playing time.

Again clif I agree with you. The day I attended Flagstaff practices I saw Pace just getting buried on running plays. That being said I think he'll stick this year. In the end though you have to produce. As far as Kolodziej is concerned I didn't think he played to bad. I'd at least like to give the guy a chance. At least he's out there practicing every day and he's cheap. I think he has some potenial as a backup. We have to remember that the staff likes him because he can play all four dline positions. In the end this kind of versatility will win this player a roster spot over a player that can only play one or two positions and hasn't shown any real big time potential at any of them.

 

[perivolaki]

Sometimes, but he's also apparently resurrected Wilson, and hopefully got Big playing a little bit closer to his draft status and contract.

If he does cut Pace, I will be pissed, but he hasn't yet.

Let's just hope Calvin goes out tomorrow night and plays so well Green has to move him to LDE and Dockett to UT!

As my frosh soph basketball coach said to me my senior year when I went in early after being in the doghouse for 2 games "go in there and play so well he'll look stupid if he pulls you again." I did, and he pulled me anyways, and got booed by my friends in the stands

No you're not! You are not pulling out the highschool basketball card are you? Well I just want you to know that I feel your pain. I was playing shortstop once in peewees and a grounder went between my legs and the coach put me in right field and my mom stood up and yelled at the coach. It was alright though, she made a chocolate milk for me when I got home. I felt a lot better after that, you should try it!