Take this to the bank

[conraddobler]

Like mentioned in other threads, this team has very little talent and Green can't change that in a year.

What he can do is get rid of anyone he does not feel will fit his future plans or pass muster as a true NFL player.

Like Skorp said he gets a one year free pass and he's using it to the hilt like he should. You don't get a second chance at this, save only the very best and cut the rest.

Go take a picture of the new stadium and then follow the progress of it and the team, both are roughly equal in completeness now and will be ready for prime time at about the same time.

 

[Russ Smith]

I understood what the point was, but if you and I and every one else on these boards know these two are goners, any team who wants them (if any) also knows this. Which brings back the question, why trade when you know the kid is gonna be cut? Unless you don't think you have a chance at him, why trade away something of yours to get him?

There are certain circumstances where trades work, but I dont think I have seen too many trades for players that are going to be cut from the team they are on, unless it is a salary cap or player/coach disagreement.

Thomas Jones? The whole NFL knew he was going to be cut, but Tampa wanted to make sure they could get him, so they traded.

Obviously DJ has less market value than a former #1 pick. The question is, does Green even TRY to trade guys like Kendall or DJ? If he does, you'd think he'd be showcasing them instead of burying them.

Hell I'd take a 6th or 7th round pick for DJ over just cutting him, you never know, Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder.

 

[clif]

Don't follow. you cut the guy, you're still paying someone a salary, and with us that player is likely not any better than DJ was. He's not making THAT much.

So far we've cut Gilmore(totally agreed) and signed free agent wr's like Collins and Scottie ANderson, one quit on his team in camp, the other didn't pass our physical. So it's not like we're actually upgrading our talent this way.

What we're really doing is getting rid of guys Green didn't want, in the case of Gilmore and Kendall I understand and agree. I'm not convinced Ross Kolodziej will do anything this year to justify making the team over Dennis Johnson if that proves to be the case.

what i mean is it easier with less hassle than trying to trade a guy when most teams wont give up anything of interest. As for Ross... i think it is a situation that he may be a hard worker who will cherish a second chance ( or fifth ). I dont know if there is evidence, but what if DJ didnt put in the neccessary work in the offseason? I have not heard either way, but it is clear the DG favors players with high motors and a desire to work hard and work through adversity. I would argue that point based on the players that are starters as opposed to ones that are 2nd or 3rd string. It may not be talent but a matter of working hard and trying to get better at this point.

 

[Bobcat]

I don't understand why Green just cuts players (like Kendall, for example) that may have value to other teams without trying to trade them first. Maybe he has and we just don't hear about it, but it seems to me that Kendall may have brought some sort of pick in return. Maybe DJ would too, I don't know. But it'll piss me off to just see him cut, and then go excel with some other team.

But it looks like we have a guy who will be around here longer than Kendall was going to be. And it seems that he is going to be a much better player than Kendall.

Why cry over things that you cannot control. that is a problem with some people onthis board; complain, complain, complain. Let DG do his thing, and maybe then we won't stay as the laughing stock of the NFL. Mac and his coaches set this franchise back years.


Allan

 

[Pariah]

He gets a one year honeymoon, so he's taking full advantage of it.

Oh, man, if this is what constitutes a honeymoon around here, he's in for some troube.

For some people, the only reason this resembles a honeymoon is because Green is screwing the Cardinals every chance he gets. (although that's not my opinion...I just thought it was funny...am I bothering you? This will all be over soon....I'm just going to stand over here...)

 

[Russ Smith]

what i mean is it easier with less hassle than trying to trade a guy when most teams wont give up anything of interest. As for Ross... i think it is a situation that he may be a hard worker who will cherish a second chance ( or fifth ). I dont know if there is evidence, but what if DJ didnt put in the neccessary work in the offseason? I have not heard either way, but it is clear the DG favors players with high motors and a desire to work hard and work through adversity. I would argue that point based on the players that are starters as opposed to ones that are 2nd or 3rd string. It may not be talent but a matter of working hard and trying to get better at this point.

Here's my fear there, and it's something Harry alluded to. I think the reason Green wants "high motor" players is he'd rather lose with guys with no talent but who try, than with guys with talent who he thinks don't play as hard.

My take is we didn't hire him to keep losing, we hired him to improve the team, take guys with talent and coach them, get rid of guys without talent and replace them with guys with talent. Can't do it overnight I agree, but so far we are replacing guys in many cases with similarly or LESS talented players.

We're all giving Green a pass, he is taking full advantage of it. I just don't want to hear him saying at the end of the year he didn't have the talent to run his system, because it appears some of that will be his decision.

Not expecting 10 wins, I'd be happy with 6 and competitive games.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

These posts arent making any sense to me...

Listen Pace had 1 year. thats it 1 year!

If it hasnt been repeated enough let me try again:

1. He was thrown in too early and was supposed to be a 3rd down rush end last year
2. He plays/played on an awful line
3. He was, imo, playing out of position
4. He got little to no coaching at all!

Excuses? Maybe, but do you think the very idea of cutting a second year player drafted in the 1st round is even a thought in the mind of any other NFL teams? ummmmm NO!

How about just the other dlineman taken prior to Pace. Think any of them are on the cutting block?

Think the Jets are thinking of cutting dwayne roberton after his disappointing year?
What about the Saints and Jonathon Sullivan?
How about the awful Jimmy KennedY? Think the rams are gonna cut him?
How about Ty Warren, Michael Haynes, or Jermoe McDougal?

None of them will be cut! The reason? Because their coaches will try and 'teach' these guys. They will try and take what obvious athletic ability they ALL have and teach them and keep them on the team! They wont just cut them as DG is preparing to do!

To me, if DG cuts Pace, he is saying that he has nothing he can contribute to this team. And thats assinine! To rather cut a player and take a hefty cap hit instea dof 'teaching' the kid how to play the position better smells rotten to me. In fact it smells of personal dislike !!!

 

[clif]

Here's my fear there, and it's something Harry alluded to. I think the reason Green wants "high motor" players is he'd rather lose with guys with no talent but who try, than with guys with talent who he thinks don't play as hard.

My take is we didn't hire him to keep losing, we hired him to improve the team, take guys with talent and coach them, get rid of guys without talent and replace them with guys with talent. Can't do it overnight I agree, but so far we are replacing guys in many cases with similarly or LESS talented players.

We're all giving Green a pass, he is taking full advantage of it. I just don't want to hear him saying at the end of the year he didn't have the talent to run his system, because it appears some of that will be his decision.

Not expecting 10 wins, I'd be happy with 6 and competitive games.

I seriously doubt he is going to say he didn't have the players to get it done. I really expect that if he gets some "less talented" guys to play "over their heads" then we will all start to see more and more high profile FA's sign on the line. We need to get a winning attitude started to break the loser mindset. If you have some talented guys goinging throught the motions, then why in the world would anyone want to come to this team? Dont get me wrong. I do not believe Denny will cut one player and replace them with someone who was clearly not as talented. I think it is a toss up. If the players are similar in talent and "his" guy fits then I say why not replace them.

 

[clif]

These posts arent making any sense to me...

Listen Pace had 1 year. thats it 1 year!

If it hasnt been repeated enough let me try again:

1. He was thrown in too early and was supposed to be a 3rd down rush end last year
2. He plays/played on an awful line
3. He was, imo, playing out of position
4. He got little to no coaching at all!

Excuses? Maybe, but do you think the very idea of cutting a second year player drafted in the 1st round is even a thought in the mind of any other NFL teams? ummmmm NO!

How about just the other dlineman taken prior to Pace. Think any of them are on the cutting block?

Think the Jets are thinking of cutting dwayne roberton after his disappointing year?
What about the Saints and Jonathon Sullivan?
How about the awful Jimmy KennedY? Think the rams are gonna cut him?
How about Ty Warren, Michael Haynes, or Jermoe McDougal?

None of them will be cut! The reason? Because their coaches will try and 'teach' these guys. They will try and take what obvious athletic ability they ALL have and teach them and keep them on the team! They wont just cut them as DG is preparing to do!

To me, if DG cuts Pace, he is saying that he has nothing he can contribute to this team. And thats assinine! To rather cut a player and take a hefty cap hit instea dof 'teaching' the kid how to play the position better smells rotten to me. In fact it smells of personal dislike !!!

This is an assumption on your part. You whole arguement is based on it. Where have you read other than this message board that said Pace was about to be cut? The guy will be given his chance. What he does with it is up to him. The team will carry at least 7 to 8 Dlinemen, and Pace will be one of them. Of course I am speculating, but based on the number of injuries and lack of depth and the fact that he was a first round pick almost guarantees he will be around for a little while longer.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

This is an assumption on your part. You whole arguement is based on it. Where have you read other than this message board that said Pace was about to be cut? The guy will be given his chance. What he does with it is up to him. The team will carry at least 7 to 8 Dlinemen, and Pace will be one of them. Of course I am speculating, but based on the number of injuries and lack of depth and the fact that he was a first round pick almost guarantees he will be around for a little while longer.

And thats an assumption on your part! Fact is he has gotten no playing time and seems to be what?- 3rd on the depth chart?

Of course its speculation but to me he should at least get some playing time to prove it!!!!

 

[Pariah]

Here's my fear there, and it's something Harry alluded to. I think the reason Green wants "high motor" players is he'd rather lose with guys with no talent but who try, than with guys with talent who he thinks don't play as hard.

Isn't that why we've sucked so bad under Mac?

 

[clif]

And thats an assumption on your part! Fact is he has gotten no playing time and seems to be what?- 3rd on the depth chart?

Of course its speculation but to me he should at least get some playing time to prove it!!!!

of course he should get playing time. But playing time is dictated by what you do in practice... I would SPECULATE that he has not done much in practice to deserve alot of playing time.

 

[CardLogic]

I seriously doubt he is going to say he didn't have the players to get it done. I really expect that if he gets some "less talented" guys to play "over their heads" then we will all start to see more and more high profile FA's sign on the line. We need to get a winning attitude started to break the loser mindset. If you have some talented guys goinging throught the motions, then why in the world would anyone want to come to this team? Dont get me wrong. I do not believe Denny will cut one player and replace them with someone who was clearly not as talented. I think it is a toss up. If the players are similar in talent and "his" guy fits then I say why not replace them.

This is what I was thinking all the while I was reading this thread. Right now with the Cardinals the BIGGEST isssue is not talent. Granted talent is an issue, it's just not the biggest issue right now. The first thing that Green has got to do with the Cardinals is weed out the loser mentality. It doesn't matter who the player is if he is not about hustle and work and attitude, then he should go, period!

I think that some of the line-up changes DG makes are more about seeing how the players react to adversity than any other reason. When faced with adversity are they going to suck it up and crank it up a notch; or do they mope and feel sorry for themselves for being stuck in such a crappy situation (like playing for the Cardinals). I'll guarantee that those players who don't respond positively will be the players who will not survive Dennis Green.

 

[CardLogic]

Isn't that why we've sucked so bad under Mac?

Mac gave lip service to the idea; and then did nothing about it! We all know that!

 

[clif]

This is what I was thinking all the while I was reading this thread. Right now with the Cardinals the BIGGEST isssue is not talent. Granted talent is an issue, it's just not the biggest issue right now. The first thing that Green has got to do with the Cardinals is weed out the loser mentality. It doesn't matter who the player is if he is not about hustle and work and attitude, then he should go, period!

I think that some of the line-up changes DG makes are more about seeing how the players react to adversity than any other reason. When faced with adversity are they going to suck it up and crank it up a notch; or do they mope and feel sorry for themselves for being stuck in such a crappy situation (like playing for the Cardinals). I'll guarantee that those players who don't respond positively will be the player who will not survive Dennis Green.

 

[Russ Smith]

Isn't that why we've sucked so bad under Mac?

Not necessarily, I think a big part of it was we had guys who needed to be coached on what it took to win, and Mac and his staff couldn't do that. DG supposedly can and hopefully will.

 

[jvanhill]

Thomas Jones? The whole NFL knew he was going to be cut, but Tampa wanted to make sure they could get him, so they traded.

Obviously DJ has less market value than a former #1 pick. The question is, does Green even TRY to trade guys like Kendall or DJ? If he does, you'd think he'd be showcasing them instead of burying them.

Hell I'd take a 6th or 7th round pick for DJ over just cutting him, you never know, Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder.

Maybe I will get lambasted for saying this, but I personally felt TJ had great potential and was a good back. Some players fit certain systems, and some don't. I don't think TJ fit the system or the coaching in Arizona. That is why he was going to be released, and that is probably exactly the same conclusion that TB used when they tried to get him. I mean, one shining example of a back who didn't fit the system... Herschel Walker and Minnesota.

If you look at the numbers for the last 10 years for the lead rusher in Arizona, there are few bright spots. There are a few 1000 yard rushers, nothing to be ashamed of, but nobody really has a great average, excluding LeShon.

TJ's numbers were pretty average for a back in Arizona given the number of carries. Why does there appear to be no consistency in the run offense? Several of these runners were proven backs before or after AZ: Murrell was a 2x1000+ yd rusher for NYJ before AZ, Hearst 4 (nearly 5)x1000+yd rusher during AZ and with SF.

Do you guys think it is the coaching or was it the offensive philosophy? Was talent evaluation flawed, or was the development just not there? I fully expect DG to turn that around (I watched him do wonders at MN), though, it will admittedly be very tough to expect a 1000 yard rusher this year with the injuries and turn around of players on offense.

Leading Rushers For Arizona by Year: att-yds-avg-td (w-l)
2002 Marcel Shipp 228-830-3.6-0 (5-11)
2001 Michael Pittman 241-846-3.5-5 (7-9)
2000 Michael Pittman 184-719-3.9-4 (3-13)
1999 Adrian Murrell 193-553-2.9-0 (6-10)
1998 Adrian Murrell 274-1042-3.8-8 (9-7)
1997 Leeland McElroy 135-424-3.1-2 (4-12)
1996 LeShon Johnson 141-634-4.5-3 (7-9)
1995 Garrison Hearst 284-1070-3.8-1 (4-12)
1994 Ronald Moore 232-780-3.4-4 (8-8)
1993 Ronald Moore 263-1018-3.9-9 (7-9)
--------------------------------------------
TOTAL 2175-7916-3.64-32
YEARLY AVG 217.5-791.6-3.64-3.2

Thomas Jones by year: att-yds-avg-td (team)
2003 Thomas Jones 137-627-4.6-3 (TB)
2002 Thomas Jones 138-511-3.7-2 (AZ)
2001 Thomas Jones 112-380-3.4-5 (AZ)
2000 Thomas Jones 112-373-3.3-2 (AZ)
--------------------------------------------
TOTAL 499-1891-3.79-12
YEARLY AVG 124.75-472.75-3.79-3

AZ TOTAL 362-1264-3.49-9
AZ AVG 120.67-421.3-3.49-3

The TJ statistical comparison is just for fun, however, I believe he will be a good back this year, though I am hoping he wont be (I am a Vikings fan as well).

 

[Russ Smith]

Maybe I will get lambasted for saying this, but I personally felt TJ had great potential and was a good back. Some players fit certain systems, and some don't. I don't think TJ fit the system or the coaching in Arizona. That is why he was going to be released, and that is probably exactly the same conclusion that TB used when they tried to get him. I mean, one shining example of a back who didn't fit the system... Herschel Walker and Minnesota.

Agreed, I felt Jones was better than he showed. I think with him the rumored hand incident was the deal breaker.

But he was a clear case of a guy everyone knew was going to be cut. There was even that weird quote where Graves said he'd rather cut him than take a low round pick for him.

The run game has been everything from OL, to QB, to offensive coordinator all rolled into one big disaster for RB's.

 

[clif]

Maybe I will get lambasted for saying this, but I personally felt TJ had great potential and was a good back... .

I felt the same way that TJ was a good back and for whatever reason it did not work out.. It is becoming more apparent that it was due to a lack of coaching in all aspects of the running game. I think his mysterious injury and his broken hand lying incident just pushed him out the door. He made himself look bad with the phone excuse.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Not necessarily, I think a big part of it was we had guys who needed to be coached on what it took to win, and Mac and his staff couldn't do that. DG supposedly can and hopefully will.

Yeah hopefully, but he he hasn't seemed to do that yet.

Instead he either starts his own rookies or relegates players to the 3rd string!

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah hopefully, but he he hasn't seemed to do that yet.

Instead he either starts his own rookies or relegates players to the 3rd string!

Sometimes, but he's also apparently resurrected Wilson, and hopefully got Big playing a little bit closer to his draft status and contract.

If he does cut Pace, I will be pissed, but he hasn't yet.

Let's just hope Calvin goes out tomorrow night and plays so well Green has to move him to LDE and Dockett to UT!

As my frosh soph basketball coach said to me my senior year when I went in early after being in the doghouse for 2 games "go in there and play so well he'll look stupid if he pulls you again." I did, and he pulled me anyways, and got booed by my friends in the stands

 

[clif]

Yeah hopefully, but he he hasn't seemed to do that yet.

Instead he either starts his own rookies or relegates players to the 3rd string!

what coaches doesnt start their own rookies? gerald hayes, adrian wilson, reggie wells, kenny king... those arent his guys and they were all set to start except for hayes... at least not yet.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Sometimes, but he's also apparently resurrected Wilson, and hopefully got Big playing a little bit closer to his draft status and contract.

If he does cut Pace, I will be pissed, but he hasn't yet.

Let's just hope Calvin goes out tomorrow night and plays so well Green has to move him to LDE and Dockett to UT!

As my frosh soph basketball coach said to me my senior year when I went in early after being in the doghouse for 2 games "go in there and play so well he'll look stupid if he pulls you again." I did, and he pulled me anyways, and got booed by my friends in the stands

Good points.

I think Davis has always had the ability to be a pro bowl o-lineman so I am not sure any 'coaching' by Green and the boys has done much. As for Wilson, jury is still out. He had a good 1st quarter the other night but is still looking for the big hit too much.

Although I do include Pace in this I also include DJ, Renaldo Hill, Quentin Harris, Wendell Bryant, and to a lesser extent Jason McAddley. I think they all had/have talent. I am just waiting for this great 'Coaching Messiah' we all thought was coming.

I will continue to wait.

 

[ajcardfan]

If he does cut Pace, I will be pissed, but he hasn't yet.

Let's just hope Calvin goes out tomorrow night and plays so well Green has to move him to LDE and Dockett to UT!

Yeah, Pace could really take care of this himself. I'd love to see him just demolish the T and get a sack. Or, just blow right by him. As a first rounder, he should've done one or the other at least a couple of times by now. He just hasn't.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

what coaches doesnt start their own rookies? gerald hayes, adrian wilson, reggie wells, kenny king... those arent his guys and they were all set to start except for hayes... at least not yet.

Clif I am not talking about guys who are already starters. King, Wilson, and Wells, were starters. So ok, I will give him credit on Gerald Hayes. (Although his upside was widely talked about prior to Green accepting this position) so he has taken one guy and made him into a starter-which BTW, isnt even official yet. I dont believe Hayes is a starter come to think of it??

Nevermind then!~


EDIT: BTW, a lot of oaches dont start rookies. For some reason, and I guess its the perrenial losing, we Cards fan expects all rookies to come in and have Quan-like seasons or we start labeling them busts!