The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

[jon_nyaz]

Probably the biggest and most universal complaint I see on this site is that the Cardinals are $12M under the cap and are showing no signs of using that money to improve what has turned out to be another crappy team.

BUT... for those of you that think we will end the season $12M under the cap, I think you will turn out to be wrong. We have until the end of the season to spend that money and you can be sure that much, if not all of it will be spent. Sure, we could have brought in a Marco Coleman or a Dan Wilkinson to help us out with short term needs, but this would have shown even more of a lack of strategic thinking. There are a handful of players that the Cardinals want to lock up as the "nucleus" of the team. Usually, the Cardinals spread the signing bonus cap impact across the life of a contract. However, I would look for mid-season contract extensions where the large majority of the signing bonus will be applied to this year to minimize the cap hit in coming years. So if you give a guy like LJ Shelton a $5M bonus and a 4 year contract extension, only his salary will affect the cap going forward. This is a pretty crafty way to lock up key guys and still have plenty of room to sign some free agents in the coming years. It also removes the possibility of having "dead cap money" allocated to injured or released players in the worst case scenario where one of the guys we re-sign gets blown out.

So did Graves make a conscious decision to zip up the purse now in favor of having a bigger bankroll later? Definitely. Is that frustrating for us fans coming off a pretty impressive 4-0 preseason with some positive expectations? Absolutely. But although Graves is not perfect, I think he is being pretty honest with himself and the fans about the timing of when this team will truly compete. We're looking at a two to three year time horizon with the biggest piece of the puzzle coming in the upcoming draft where I predict we will get our quarterback of the future somewhere in the first three picks of the first round. The good news is that although we may suck now, we will have plenty of cap space to surround our shiny new quarterback with experienced playmakers and veteran offensive linemen.

In the end, I'd rather build up to a powerhouse than be consistently mediocre.

 

[Metal Militia]

Jon,

I think that you are correct in your assessment. I think that the Cards are waiting to see how some of their "target" guys will do and then move forward in a similar pattern that they did last year with McKinnon and Shipp.

I think the only two guys that I would be comfortable with locking up right now are L.J. Shelton and Ray Thompson. I think that the jury is still out on Adrian Wilson.

David Barrett might be another guy we think about as well. I don't envision him being a starter next year as I hope we would address a top flight corner in Free Agency, but I do think he would make an excellent 3rd corner.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by Metal Militia
Jon,

I think the only two guys that I would be comfortable with locking up right now are L.J. Shelton and Ray Thompson. I think that the jury is still out on Adrian Wilson.

David Barrett might be another guy we think about as well. I don't envision him being a starter next year as I hope we would address a top flight corner in Free Agency, but I do think he would make an excellent 3rd corner.

Agreed on LJ and Thompson. I so want to see Adrian Wilson do well because he has all the physical tools. Let's hope Dexter Jackson can talk some sense in to him and get his head in the right place.

The Barrett issue I think actually boils down to Duane Starks. If he can get healthy and stay healthy then Barrett might lose his job to a FA signee. If Starks ends up weak and ineffective, then we still sign a FA corner, but I predict we cut our losses and release Starks before the start of the '04 season.

The last guy to consider is Anthony Clement. To me, he has been a pretty big disappointment. Maybe he's never fully recovered from his back injury because to me he just looks stiff and slow. However, this is much to be said about keeping a entire offensive line unit together, so it may make sense to resign him and keep him on a short leash. I think Reggie Wells may turn out to be a nice alternative at the right tackle position.

 

[Metal Militia]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
The last guy to consider is Anthony Clement.

Is A.C. a FA after this season too? If he is, then that is another guy that would be in the same boat as Wilson as far as having to prove themselves this season.

I think L.J. and Raynoch have already done the proving.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by Metal Militia
Is A.C. a FA after this season too? If he is, then that is another guy that would be in the same boat as Wilson as far as having to prove themselves this season.

I think L.J. and Raynoch have already done the proving.

Not sure if he is, but if he's not then he can't have more than a year or so left on his contract. Is there a source we can go to to see what FAs are coming up?

 

[Cardiac]

Clement is locked up for at least another year. He has been a dissapointment so far and should be moved to OG or replaced as the starter.

Ray Thompson is a liability in certain coverage packages.

Barrett is giving up almost nothing this year but that may because the other corners are such easy targets. Every team needs at least 3 quality CB's so I say don't count on Starks at all and get Barrett re-signed. If Starks comes back and plays well then the team is in better shape, but we still need to draft a top notch CB and sign a top notch vet FA.

Shelton has proved to be a solid LT and would probably be an excellent RT. If Wells develops then between him and Shelton and BIG we should be set at the OT position.

Even though the team extended the contracts of R. Davis, Tanner and Wakefield if all three of these players are on the roster next year the team screwed up. At most one of these guys should be on the team next year.

I agree completely with Jon in that this team will use most of the cap money this year and set themselves up for long term Cap health. RG will be even more aggressive next year in FA as this team goes after a CB, DT and DE. Depending on how the youngins at WR do this may be another position that is addressed.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Cardiac
Clement is locked up for at least another year. He has been a dissapointment so far and should be moved to OG or replaced as the starter.

He is locked up for another 2 to 3 years he signed a new deal last year before he ws hurt it was either 4 or 5 years.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

Even though the team extended the contracts of R. Davis, Tanner and Wakefield if all three of these players are on the roster next year the team screwed up. At most one of these guys should be on the team next year.

Wakefield is the only one to show any growth year after year. He shouldn't be a starter, but he's a competent player. Davis and Tanner should be lucky to be getting a pay check. They need to leave.

I like Ransom's possiblities. He might be a good rotation player.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by Shane H
He is locked up for another 2 to 3 years he signed a new deal last year before he ws hurt it was either 4 or 5 years.

Where did you go to verify this info? Or do you just have it committed to memory?

 

[conraddobler]

I think Barrett needs to stay pretty much any way you cut it. I would feel a whole lot better with a good FA here and Starks and Barrett in case one of them gets taken out for the season again.

I think Shelton needs to stay and Thompson.

I think we should move Big to Clements spot and get another Guard in FA they are kinda easy to find.

I also hope you are right about getting rid of the Cap $ that would go a long way into avoiding fan anxiety but until the season is over we won't know for sure.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Probably the biggest and most universal complaint I see on this site is that the Cardinals are $12M under the cap and are showing no signs of using that money to improve what has turned out to be another crappy team.

BUT... for those of you that think we will end the season $12M under the cap, I think you will turn out to be wrong. We have until the end of the season to spend that money and you can be sure that much, if not all of it will be spent. Sure, we could have brought in a Marco Coleman or a Dan Wilkinson to help us out with short term needs, but this would have shown even more of a lack of strategic thinking. There are a handful of players that the Cardinals want to lock up as the "nucleus" of the team. Usually, the Cardinals spread the signing bonus cap impact across the life of a contract. However, I would look for mid-season contract extensions where the large majority of the signing bonus will be applied to this year to minimize the cap hit in coming years. So if you give a guy like LJ Shelton a $5M bonus and a 4 year contract extension, only his salary will affect the cap going forward. This is a pretty crafty way to lock up key guys and still have plenty of room to sign some free agents in the coming years. It also removes the possibility of having "dead cap money" allocated to injured or released players in the worst case scenario where one of the guys we re-sign gets blown out.

So did Graves make a conscious decision to zip up the purse now in favor of having a bigger bankroll later? Definitely. Is that frustrating for us fans coming off a pretty impressive 4-0 preseason with some positive expectations? Absolutely. But although Graves is not perfect, I think he is being pretty honest with himself and the fans about the timing of when this team will truly compete. We're looking at a two to three year time horizon with the biggest piece of the puzzle coming in the upcoming draft where I predict we will get our quarterback of the future somewhere in the first three picks of the first round. The good news is that although we may suck now, we will have plenty of cap space to surround our shiny new quarterback with experienced playmakers and veteran offensive linemen.

In the end, I'd rather build up to a powerhouse than be consistently mediocre.

Jon,

I would rather us be mediocre. That would be great right now. I disagree with the short sightedness of signing Wilkerson or Coleman. They are better than what we have now. Also, if we do not go better than 5-12 (more like 7-9) then who will want to resign here? Graves has taken another huge gamble (like on draft day, like waiting for FA to start, like June 1st, like the 2nd week of the season). He better hope that this team improves or any talent we do have will bolt. No one want's to play on a team that does not put it's best effort forth. Right now we are lacking talent. That is the GMs job. Get the talent in here so we can be competitive.

So, I hope you are right but we better win because it is already a hard sell to get players to play here. Including our own.

 

[nidan]

Clement was resigned just before he got injured, don't have the details but I'm pretty sure he is locked up for another 2-3 years

 

[nationsrj]

Clement signed thru 2006.
Last year he signed a 5y 15M contract (3M signing bonus).

Dishman and Shelton are free agents after this year.
So is Starkey.
All the other OL that get significant time are signed thru next year.

Marcus Bell is a restricted free agent at the end of this year.

Ray Thompson and Ron McKinnon are free agents this year.

Lavar Woods is a restricted free agent.

Renaldo Hill and Adrian Wilson are restricted free agents.

Justin Lucas and David Barrett are unrestricted free agents.

Steve Bush is an unrestricted free agent.

Larry Foster may be a free agent.
Bryan Gilmore is a free agent.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by nationsr
Clement signed thru 2006.
Last year he signed a 5y 15M contract (3M signing bonus).

Dishman and Shelton are free agents after this year.
So is Starkey.
All the other OL that get significant time are signed thru next year.

Marcus Bell is a restricted free agent at the end of this year.

Ray Thompson and Ron McKinnon are free agents this year.

Lavar Woods is a restricted free agent.

Renaldo Hill and Adrian Wilson are restricted free agents.

Justin Lucas and David Barrett are unrestricted free agents.

Steve Bush is an unrestricted free agent.

Larry Foster may be a free agent.
Bryan Gilmore is a free agent.

Where did you go to get this info?

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Probably the biggest and most universal complaint I see on this site is that the Cardinals are $12M under the cap and are showing no signs of using that money to improve what has turned out to be another crappy team.

BUT... for those of you that think we will end the season $12M under the cap, I think you will turn out to be wrong. We have until the end of the season to spend that money and you can be sure that much, if not all of it will be spent. Sure, we could have brought in a Marco Coleman or a Dan Wilkinson to help us out with short term needs, but this would have shown even more of a lack of strategic thinking. There are a handful of players that the Cardinals want to lock up as the "nucleus" of the team. Usually, the Cardinals spread the signing bonus cap impact across the life of a contract. However, I would look for mid-season contract extensions where the large majority of the signing bonus will be applied to this year to minimize the cap hit in coming years. So if you give a guy like LJ Shelton a $5M bonus and a 4 year contract extension, only his salary will affect the cap going forward. This is a pretty crafty way to lock up key guys and still have plenty of room to sign some free agents in the coming years. It also removes the possibility of having "dead cap money" allocated to injured or released players in the worst case scenario where one of the guys we re-sign gets blown out.

If I understand you and the rules correctly your scenario doesn't work. Shelton's bonus would still count prorated over the 4 years(5 actually if we extend him during this season) so the caphit this year from his bonus would only be 1 million. The rest of the bonus is prorated. If it's legal you could frontload the deal with a big first year salary this year but I believe there are NFL rules on how much a deal can increase or decrease year to year so we can only do that to a certain extent.

If we did enough deals like that we'd use up a good chunk of the money but Bidwill hates signing bonuses because its his cash not the tv money, I don't know that he'll shell out a bunch of bonuses in one year. Typically in years where he's had to pay out bonus money, we always have a draft pick holdout and that's why, lack of cash.

I'm sure we'll spend some of it but it's clear the plan was to sign more players we just apparently changed our minds or couldn't get anybody to sign.

 

[nationsrj]

Most of this comes from this board and the local papers. I also get some from KFFL.com. Then I get from usa today the salary numbers from the previous year as a check against what I had.

It is not usually correct on the salary cap hits(but close). and the years of the contract is correct for the main players, not always correct for the Undrafted Free agents(I usually assume two year
contracts or one year contracts if stated).

 

[jon_nyaz]

Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by RedStorm
Jon,

I would rather us be mediocre. That would be great right now. I disagree with the short sightedness of signing Wilkerson or Coleman. They are better than what we have now. Also, if we do not go better than 5-12 (more like 7-9) then who will want to resign here? Graves has taken another huge gamble (like on draft day, like waiting for FA to start, like June 1st, like the 2nd week of the season). He better hope that this team improves or any talent we do have will bolt. No one want's to play on a team that does not put it's best effort forth. Right now we are lacking talent. That is the GMs job. Get the talent in here so we can be competitive.

So, I hope you are right but we better win because it is already a hard sell to get players to play here. Including our own.

Mediocre would be great compared to what we're seeing so far, but not at the expense of contending for the NFC Championship in two years! By signing these short term guys (Coleman and Big Daddy), you're taking money away from guys that we need to compete down the road.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Russ Smith
If I understand you and the rules correctly your scenario doesn't work. Shelton's bonus would still count prorated over the 4 years(5 actually if we extend him during this season) so the caphit this year from his bonus would only be 1 million. The rest of the bonus is prorated. If it's legal you could frontload the deal with a big first year salary this year but I believe there are NFL rules on how much a deal can increase or decrease year to year so we can only do that to a certain extent.

If we did enough deals like that we'd use up a good chunk of the money but Bidwill hates signing bonuses because its his cash not the tv money, I don't know that he'll shell out a bunch of bonuses in one year. Typically in years where he's had to pay out bonus money, we always have a draft pick holdout and that's why, lack of cash.

I'm sure we'll spend some of it but it's clear the plan was to sign more players we just apparently changed our minds or couldn't get anybody to sign.

My understanding is that teams have the option of spreading the cap hit for signing bonuses over the life of the contract, or dumping it all into the current year. Usually teams are right up against the cap limit, so they can't take the full hit. We're in a unique position.

 

[nidan]

The whole point about resigning people this year is that we don't have to spread it over the next n years to fit it in the cap.

The Cards would pay for the SB out of current money with no future cap hit and no need to "loan" money to the organization from the owners.

It's the "loan" and subsequent amortized repayment from revenue that hurts us. Unlike Snyder, the Bidwill's don't have the cash to keep floating those loans. ie They can't easily go to the Bank of Jerry Jones/Synder ..." for a loan. The "Bank of Bidwill" is not as well or indepenadtly financed as the "Bank of Snyder"

If we resign now and eat the SB out of this years cap, no loan so no problemo.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by nidan
The whole point about resigning people this year is that we don't have to spread it over the next n years to fit it in the cap.

The Cards would pay for the SB out of current money with no future cap hit and no need to "loan" money to the organization from the owners.

It's the "loan" and subsequent amortized repayment from revenue that hurts us. Unlike Snyder, the Bidwill's don't have the cash to keep floating those loans. ie They can't easily go to the Bank of Jerry Jones/Synder ..." for a loan. The "Bank of Bidwill" is not as well or indepenadtly financed as the "Bank of Snyder"

If we resign now and eat the SB out of this years cap, no loan so no problemo.

Sorry explained it poorly, I understand Jon's idea. What I am saying is I don't think you CAN elect to not prorate it, I think that's the rule. I tried to google search for that very thing, but I couldn't find an official answer.

That said I did find something fascinating and somewhat annoying if true.

Q: Is there any incentive for teams to sign older players who might have a couple of productive seasons left in them?

A: Yes. The minimum salary for a 10-year veteran, for example, is $750,000. If he accepts, he counts just $450,000 on the salary cap. Most older players who sign minimum salary contracts, like Emmitt Smith with Arizona, have incentive clauses that can bring more than $2 million if they reach certain goals.

If I read this correctly it implies that one reason for signing Emmitt was we could get a 300K exemption against his cap number, pay him 750 but only count 450 and make the rest up in incentives. What makes this annoying is we didn't need the 300K, and the incentives if earned count against NEXT year's cap, not this. Why sign a guy to such a deal when you had so much caproom at the time?

If it's actually legal to elect to not prorate, by all means Jon's idea makes sense, I just don't know if it's legal since I doubt any other team has been in this situation before. If legal it SHOULD be a huge advantage in the future.

 

[Cardiologist]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Probably the biggest and most universal complaint I see on this site is that the Cardinals are $12M under the cap and are showing no signs of using that money to improve what has turned out to be another crappy team.

BUT... for those of you that think we will end the season $12M under the cap, I think you will turn out to be wrong. We have until the end of the season to spend that money and you can be sure that much, if not all of it will be spent.

Meanwhile 12.5% of the season is gone and that $12 million that will be spent have not helped. The average score of the games have been 12-40 -- not for us. And in order to have a chance at a playoff spot we have to win 9 of our final 14 games -- that's a 64.3% percentage. Do you really think it matters to me that the $12 million that will be spent this season when it will be too little too late?

 

[Cardiologist]

Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Mediocre would be great compared to what we're seeing so far, but not at the expense of contending for the NFC Championship in two years! By signing these short term guys (Coleman and Big Daddy), you're taking money away from guys that we need to compete down the road.

No, I don't think you are right. For three straight years the Cardinals have had the youngest roster. There is only one reason for that to happen. The team lets go of it's expensive or soon to be expensive players so they can keep the younger, less expensive players. What makes you think this pattern will change any time soon?

 

[nidan]

I think you can opt to not prorate.

 

[nidan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Cardiologist
No, I don't think you are right. For three straight years the Cardinals have had the youngest roster. There is only one reason for that to happen. The team lets go of it's expensive or soon to be expensive players so they can keep the younger, less expensive players. What makes you think this pattern will change any time soon?

Because we have a new GM who has said that stopping that pattern is one of his priorities.

He already resigned some players earlier in the year and is apparently looking at who to resign now. The interesting part is that he is not commiting (yet) to the question of if he feels has those core players avaiable yet.

 

[Lex]

Nice positive spin Jon-

There is no way we spend 12 million in salary cap this year. It's impossible IMO. The structure of the salary cap was negotiated long ago, by the owners and the players union. Signing bonuses are prorated over the life of the contract. There are many reasons why this is done, but we need look no futher than the Bidwill's reluctance to even slightly stray from the sticktest interpretation of the rules to see this scenario won't happen.

I would be very surprised if we are even a few thousand dollars from the minimum cap figure by the end of the year. Then, the overage disappears into a cotton field in Glendale, and I really don't have a problem with that.