The Ayton Plan

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No. If a 5 year max is his most likely outcome then it is really silly to not give it to him now. If they are gambling that someone will sign him to the cheaper 4 year max and then the Suns can match... I don't think it will happen. It will end up playing out like the Bledsoe summer, no one is going to do the Suns the favor of offering Ayton a contract that the Suns will instantly match, the rest of the league will sit back and let it fester, or get in Ayton's ear about forcing a sign and trade.

I ultimately agree that Ayton will be retained and the only question will be option years, but this is all allowing for needless drama.

I have to wonder how much Ayton hurt his chances of being offered the 5 year max when, as a rookie, he openly questioned how guys stay motivated after getting max deals.

Well that combined with his comment that he measured success by getting to a second contract certainly did help - and both were amplified by rollercoaster lackadaisical play and suspension.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Welp...... Than my only conclusion is they want him to prove it over a full season. And for that..... They get all the bad karma they got coming to them.

#WaggingFingerOfShameInTheirDirection

 

[Sunburn]

No. If a 5 year max is his most likely outcome then it is really silly to not give it to him now. If they are gambling that someone will sign him to the cheaper 4 year max and then the Suns can match... I don't think it will happen. It will end up playing out like the Bledsoe summer, no one is going to do the Suns the favor of offering Ayton a contract that the Suns will instantly match, the rest of the league will sit back and let it fester, or get in Ayton's ear about forcing a sign and trade.

I ultimately agree that Ayton will be retained and the only question will be option years, but this is all allowing for needless drama.

I have to wonder how much Ayton hurt his chances of being offered the 5 year max when, as a rookie, he openly questioned how guys stay motivated after getting max deals.

Honestly? I'll try to find this, but I'd love a link if you got it.

 

[GatorAZ]

This is very risky playing for the $16 million qualifying offer. Most players won't risk it when they can get large contract offers from other teams.

It’s also never happened when a player has $100+m offer on the table. I agree with @JCSunsfan that’s DA’s camp didn’t do a good representing him if they weren’t willing to listen to anything less than the 5-year max. The leaked info to Woj didn’t help matters either.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Honestly? I'll try to find this, but I'd love a link if you got it.

I don't have the link but I remember it fairly well (sort of). He was being interviewed by an NBA player (well known but name escapes me) and at the end he was given the opportunity to ask any question and he chose "how do you stay motivated after getting the 2nd contract".

There was also another interview I believe where he said that getting that 2nd contract was the most important thing to him (or something like that). That interview might have been on draft night?

 

[TJ]

Ayton should hire Rich Paul as his agent just to screw with Sarver.

 

[GatorAZ]

I will believe in KAT as a two way player when I see it. So far in his career he is more like Demarcus Cousins, only without the technical fouls. A bunch of points on one end and an doormat on the other.

He's also missed a ton of time with injuries the last 2 years.

Towns and Cousins while losing a ton of games are completely different players from an offensive skill perspective. Towns is the best shooting big man since Dirk and he’s an elite rebounder. He can can also facilitate in the post. Defensively there’d be some issues but they’d outscore their way to a title. It’d be like if the SSOL Suns had a great bench.

 

[Finito]

Towns and Cousins while losing a ton of games are completely different players from an offensive skill perspective. Towns is the best shooting big man since Dirk and he’s an elite rebounder. He can can also facilitate in the post. Defensively there’d be some issues but they’d outscore their way to a title. It’d be like if the SSOL Suns had a great bench.

The more I think about it the more I want KAT

say you trade Stix for Thad Young. You got KAT with 3 defensive dogs up front in Mcgee, Young and Crowder

That’s scary

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton should hire Rich Paul as his agent just to screw with Sarver.

Isn’t Sarver bad enough? You want to foist Paul upon us as well? A pox on you!

 

[1Sun]

So the only guy I think is close to being able to get a max is Cam Johnson if he balls all out this season. I know that's a big IF. However, if this is a concern, it has to be Cam Johnson as the guy who they would be leaving this option open for.

A one-dimensional shooter making the max? No way. While I have come around on Cam, I believe his value lies somewhere between Bridges and Shamet.

 

[1Sun]

Here's a quote from The Athletic interview with James Jones, its just one question but I believe it is an important one and also is the one most people here would be most interested in....


What about the general idea that Robert is being cheap here? That’s a reputational thing that has certainly been part of the discussion. How have you seen that perspective?

It’s inaccurate. If you just look at the moves we’ve made, it’s inaccurate. It’s just not (true). If you look at all the moves we’ve made, and the things we’ve done, from the practice facility to the roster itself to acquiring Chris Paul, going and acquiring Jae Crowder, extending the guys that we have, that’s not accurate.
When you boil this thing down, it’s disappointing that we didn’t get a deal done. It’s disappointing that it was a five-year-rookie-max-or-bust, or nothing to talk about, and we just didn’t have real substantial conversations. And that (idea that a) lack of a deal is a signal that we aren’t committed to Deandre or interested in continuing, that we don’t believe in him, that becomes the narrative. But it’s the furthest from the truth.

This reads like a politician's double-speak, making excuses for something he knows is happening while having to stick with the company line. This all but confirms this was 100% Sarver's call.

 

[Phrazbit]

Towns and Cousins while losing a ton of games are completely different players from an offensive skill perspective. Towns is the best shooting big man since Dirk and he’s an elite rebounder. He can can also facilitate in the post. Defensively there’d be some issues but they’d outscore their way to a title. It’d be like if the SSOL Suns had a great bench.

Minnesota can't even outscore their way into the playoffs. Butler famously showed Towns up in practice because he was fed up with how little Towns seems to care about winning, he still rants about how Towns is a loser every chance he get.

I think he is empty stats. We already have a great offense and swapping Towns for Ayton would turn our great defense into a mess.

And we'd have to give up a lot more than just Ayton to make the money work.

 

[GatorAZ]

Minnesota can't even outscore their way into the playoffs. Butler famously showed Towns up in practice because he was fed up with how little Towns seems to care about winning, he still rants about how Towns is a loser every chance he get.

I think he is empty stats. We already have a great offense and swapping Towns for Ayton would turn our great defense into a mess.

And we'd have to give up a lot more than just Ayton to make the money work.

Ayton’s defense would be terrible in Minnesota and his stats would be empty as well. It’s a mess there.

I would take the significantly better offensive player and trust him in the Suns system. I agree that adding assets make it tricky.

 

[Covert Rain]

The responses over the last day about what happened ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

"Anything less than a five-year max wasn’t something to be considered — not something to talk about. It’s evident."

That seems to indicate that was never brought up DIRECTLY during the discussions. Sounds like an ASSUMPTION.

"They talk about us having discussions on a three-year, four-year max (deals). Those are real.”

Sooooo if it was so evident but yet you had discussions about a 3 to 4 year deal?!?!? Wait what?!?!?

Then Ayton's camp responded that NO Max contract of ANY KIND was ever offered. See the original statement above. That seems to confirm what Ayton's camp is saying.

"But Ayton’s agents strongly disagree and were adamant in multiple conversations with The Athletic on Tuesday that a max deal of any kind was never offered even informally."

Last but not least? The team threw this out there:

It was also mentioned how the league’s collective bargaining agreement states that each team cannot have more than two rookie designated max extensions, so adding Ayton to Devin Booker’s max could cripple the Suns’ ability to add a third player on a similar five-year deal.

What other rookie are the Suns going to get their hands on that would be worth a 5 year rookie max? This team won't draft or draft high enough anytime soon to even worry about this. By the time they will draft high enough they will have a contract slot available.

I am going to call complete and total B.S. on the Suns on this one. The Suns are all over the place on their explanation. The entire league is blasting us right now and they seem to be in PR mode.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The responses over the last day about what happened ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

"Anything less than a five-year max wasn’t something to be considered — not something to talk about. It’s evident."

That seems to indicate that was never asked or DIRECTLY defined.

"They talk about us having discussions on a three-year, four-year max (deals). Those are real.”

Sooooo if it was so evident but yet you had discussions about a 3 to 4 year deal?!?!? Wait what?!?!?

Then Ayton's camp responded that NO Max contract of ANY KIND was ever offered. See the original statement above. That seems to confirm what Ayton's camp is saying.

"But Ayton’s agents strongly disagree and were adamant in multiple conversations with The Athletic on Tuesday that a max deal of any kind was never offered even informally."

Last but not least? The team threw this out there:

Amick also mentions how the league’s collective bargaining agreement states that each team cannot have more than two rookie designated max extensions, so adding Ayton to Devin Booker’s max could cripple the Suns’ ability to add a third player on a similar five-year deal.

What other rookie are the Suns going to get their hands on that would be worth a 5 year rookie max? This team won't draft or draft high enough anytime soon to even worry about this. By the time they will draft high enough they will have a contract slot available.

I am going to call complete and total B.S. on the Suns on this one. The Suns are all over the place on their explanation. The entire league is blasting us right now and they seem to be in PR mode.

Yeah and we’ve seen others run with or misunderstand that spin saying we can’t have three MAX contracts if they re-sign Ayton. And that’s just not true. The Lakers, Warriors, Nets, Denver and I think even the Heat all have three guys on MAX contracts. The Sixers have 2 and a massive contract with Harris. And don’t the Bucks have three guys on MAX deals also?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah and we’ve seen others run with or misunderstand that spin saying we can’t have three MAX contracts if they re-sign Ayton. And that’s just not true. The Lakers, Warriors, Nets, Denver and I think even the Heat all have three guys on MAX contracts. The Sixers have 2 and a massive contract with Harris. And don’t the Bucks have three guys on MAX deals also?

It is true, even though it's a bit confusing. Our specific situation has to do with the Designated Rookie Scale extension of which you can only have 2 at the same time. It's the same rule that kept Boston from trading for AD without moving Kyrie or Hayward.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah and we’ve seen others run with or misunderstand that spin saying we can’t have three MAX contracts if they re-sign Ayton. And that’s just not true. The Lakers, Warriors, Nets, Denver and I think even the Heat all have three guys on MAX contracts. The Sixers have 2 and a massive contract with Harris. And don’t the Bucks have three guys on MAX deals also?

I think they mispoke because I think they were referring to this:

“Designated Rookie Scale Player Extension” adds 5 new years to the player's Rookie Scale Contract (for a total of 6 years when the remaining year is included)."

Again, between the traded picks, winning they won't be in a position to draft a rookie high enough to warrant that consideration anyway. By the time they draft high enough and that original rookie contract is up? They will have another Rooke Extension slot available. Even then you have to assume that the draft pick panned out.

If this is not reaching I don't know what is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think they mispoke because I think they were referring to this:

“Designated Rookie Scale Player Extension” adds 5 new years to the player's Rookie Scale Contract (for a total of 6 years when the remaining year is included)."

Again, between the traded picks, winning they won't be in a position to draft a rookie high enough to warrant that consideration anyway. By the time they draft high enough and that original rookie contract is up? They will have another Rooke Extension slot available. Even then you have to assume that the draft pick panned out.

If this is not reaching I don't know what is.

Maybe they were hoping to trade for someone like Fox, Morant or SGA in a year or two as CP approaches the end of his career?

 

[Covert Rain]

Maybe they were hoping to trade for someone like Fox, Morant or SGA in a year or two as CP approaches the end of his career?

I am sure they hoped to sign Superstars and trade for them every year somehow as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe they were hoping to trade for someone like Fox, Morant or SGA in a year or two as CP approaches the end of his career?

Using WHAT to trade? Landry Shamet, Saric and Stix? Sorry, the only way a trade for one of those guys happen is IF Ayton was used to close the deal. The idea that was the reason why we didn’t want to give Ayton 5 is incredibly specious to me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Using WHAT to trade? Landry Shamet, Saric and Stix? Sorry, the only way a trade for one of those guys happen is IF Ayton was used to close the deal. The idea that was the reason why we didn’t want to give Ayton 5 is incredibly specious to me.

Yes, using Shamet, Stix and maybe another bit player or two plus 3 first round picks and a couple of pick swaps. To have a legit chance of making this happen, you just need an unhappy star interested in coming to Phoenix and a franchise thinking about rebuilding.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I am sure they hoped to sign Superstars and trade for them every year somehow as well.

Probably not. Prior to the big TV deal, Sarver was far more interested in reaching the salary floor than the salary ceiling.

 

[Hoop Head]

The responses over the last day about what happened ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

"Anything less than a five-year max wasn’t something to be considered — not something to talk about. It’s evident."

That seems to indicate that was never asked or DIRECTLY defined.

"They talk about us having discussions on a three-year, four-year max (deals). Those are real.”

Sooooo if it was so evident but yet you had discussions about a 3 to 4 year deal?!?!? Wait what?!?!?

Then Ayton's camp responded that NO Max contract of ANY KIND was ever offered. See the original statement above. That seems to confirm what Ayton's camp is saying.

"But Ayton’s agents strongly disagree and were adamant in multiple conversations with The Athletic on Tuesday that a max deal of any kind was never offered even informally.

Why make a formal offer of 4 years max if the other party says they won't consider it? All accounts seem to indicate Ayton's team said they wouldn't consider a deal less than the full max. It appears they entered negotiations not willing to negotiate. It wouldn't have mattered if a 4 year deal was offered since they said from the get go they wouldn't accept it.

It's possible that's false but it makes sense. If you're speaking with your partner about going on vacation and they say they only want to go to the Bahamas and aren't willing to consider a trip anywhere else does it really matter if actually offer to take them to Hawaii? They made their intentions clear, why would they care that wasn't offered?

Amick also mentions how the league’s collective bargaining agreement states that each team cannot have more than two rookie designated max extensions, so adding Ayton to Devin Booker’s max could cripple the Suns’ ability to add a third player on a similar five-year deal.

What other rookie are the Suns going to get their hands on that would be worth a 5 year rookie max? This team won't draft or draft high enough anytime soon to even worry about this. By the time they will draft high enough they will have a contract slot available.

I am going to call complete and total B.S. on the Suns on this one. The Suns are all over the place on their explanation. The entire league is blasting us right now and they seem to be in PR

I'm not sure why it seems you're so hung up on the only way to add a player on a designated rookie max is by signing them ourselves. It would be by trade to replace Chris Paul, most likely. It will require flexibility to do that.

Boston couldn't make an offer for Anthony Davis 2 years ago because they already had Kyrie and Tatum on designated max deals. They had to wait until the offseason to do so when Kyrie expired because those 3 had designated max deals. They knew they were likely to lose Kyrie anyway but their hands were tied and the Lakers were capable of swinging a deal a half season before Boston could even make a legal pitch.

That is proof this happens and hurts teams. They could have built a better package around Jaylen Brown and picks but that didn't matter and had to miss out on a franchise changing big while they lost a talented yet mercurial PG for nothing in free agency, all while they were forced to watch since they couldn't act.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah and we’ve seen others run with or misunderstand that spin saying we can’t have three MAX contracts if they re-sign Ayton. And that’s just not true. The Lakers, Warriors, Nets, Denver and I think even the Heat all have three guys on MAX contracts. The Sixers have 2 and a massive contract with Harris. And don’t the Bucks have three guys on MAX deals also?

I think there is some confusion with max and supermax players. A team can only have two supermax players on their roster.


From NBC Sports:


No franchise can carry more than two supermax players at 35 percent of the cap each. Functionally, though, it's difficult for a team to have more than one.


Two supermax players would account for 70 percent of a team's salary in any given year, leaving the club virtually unable to sign a competitive supporting cast.

monumental sports network

www.nbcsports.com

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah and we’ve seen others run with or misunderstand that spin saying we can’t have three MAX contracts if they re-sign Ayton. And that’s just not true. The Lakers, Warriors, Nets, Denver and I think even the Heat all have three guys on MAX contracts. The Sixers have 2 and a massive contract with Harris. And don’t the Bucks have three guys on MAX deals also?

Who said that? I believe that's how you interpreted it but I know you questioned me before when I was clear you couldn't have 3 designated player max deals. That's league rules and not a team you mentioned was capable of avoiding that. What makes a max a designated player max is that 5th year, which I've elaborated on before and you ignored to run with this narrative that people now misunderstand the rules.