The Ayton Plan

[Chaplin]

man, this is so ridiculously short-sighted for any professional franchise.

The Lakers would disagree.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah, I think that's true. I suspect they're looking around the league at defensive centers that were turned into max players by CP and other strong PG's and realized that almost all of them look like huge overpayments the moment they are separated from an elite point guard.

But I think there's a difference though with DA. He has been a disappointment offensively (except the postseason) but unlike so many other defensive centers, you can see he has real (underdeveloped) scoring potential.

agreed. he doesn't compare to the Jordans of the world. He has so much more potential offensively there and only just started scratching the surface defensively.

also, if you're going to be a title team, I've got news for James Jones, you're likely going to need three MAX players especially when the only one we might have going forward is Booker. And that's because Booker isn't Giannis/LeBron/KD... the type of HOF LEGEND that could get by with one other totally legit SUPERSTAR 1A. Book's great but he's not those guys level great and never will be.

 

[GatorAZ]

I have heard Sacrameto may be willing to move Fox at some point because of Haliburton. Ja Morant is never going to be traded unless he forces it.

Would they take Paul - can't see how, because he would have to be playing really well still for them to want him, and then why would the Suns be trading him? Some kind of 3 way deal? I just don't see how there would be a situation where it would make sense for a team to choose Paul over Fox.

I see less than a 5% chance of something like that happening which is why I think it’s nothing more PR.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have heard Sacrameto may be willing to move Fox at some point because of Haliburton. Ja Morant is never going to be traded unless he forces it.

Would they take Paul - can't see how, because he would have to be playing really well still for them to want him, and then why would the Suns be trading him? Some kind of 3 way deal? I just don't see how there would be a situation where it would make sense for a team to choose Paul over Fox.

Yeah I can't see Paul being a part of it but maybe a couple other contracts piled together along with 3 firsts and a couple of pick swaps?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can't imagine that too many of us are upset by that, honestly. I think it makes sense to keep a roster spot open since the 15th man isn't gonna get much playing time. They might believe in Stix (I don't, but they might), or they may have a specific target in mind (Thad Young0type scenario.)

i think that's spin. I was fine with it when I thought we'd sign Ayton to the extension because the Suns didn't want to go totally overboard spending, but in it's absence, a team "going for it" and sitting on cap space while having a big question mark at a key position that we have very little depth and killed us in the Finals last year doesn't sit right at this point.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Lakers would disagree.

The Lakers are different and you know it. That's an entire TEAM full of oldies. But even the Lakers aren't that short-sighted. They're not signing lots of long-term deals that are going clog the cap. They're going for bust with the golden oldies on one-year deals and can keep doing that so that once LeBron is gone, they can have a ton of cap space to build around Davis without the Shamets and Bridges' of the world taking up valuable cap space to get superstars. And the Lakers have actually shown the ability to get the HUGE FA. This team hasn't.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Read the article with James Jones' interview. It makes perfect sense. You can only have two true max contracts (off of rookie deals). If it's not a full max (five years), you are not boxing yourself in.

I guess it depends on if you buy that, or see it as an excuse to not go 5. Acquiring another true max guy without including Book/Ayton seems unlikely.

Using similar logic though, why wouldn't Ayton just accept the 4 year deal? He's getting the money, what's the problem? He can get so much more when the TV deals comes around and make more money in that 5th year than if he was locked in.

RESPECT. C'mon, you know it matters in the NBA. He sees lesser players get a 5 year max, and he doesn't want to take any less. I can't blame him. The market says he's a max player, and Sarver won't add one more year.

It's created a hell of a mess over one year, and the off chance of a future superstar acquisition. In the meantime, we might lose our own superstar, and the contract issue is hanging, and isn't going away.

 

[Yuma]

i think that's spin. I was fine with it when I thought we'd sign Ayton to the extension because the Suns didn't want to go totally overboard spending, but in it's absence, a team "going for it" and sitting on cap space while having a big question mark at a key position that we have very little depth and killed us in the Finals last year doesn't sit right at this point.

aside from not signing Ayton, who we have this year, I thought we upgraded our depth over last year.

 

[TJ]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Guess it could be worse

 

[Chris_Sanders]

So how is the plan going?

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's more complex than the TV deal making up for his deal if he underperforms. It limits our ability to add a designated max player until the deals done. A team can only have 2 of those, period, and we got Booker as 1.

Using similar logic though, why wouldn't Ayton just accept the 4 year deal? He's getting the money, what's the problem? He can get so much more when the TV deals comes around and make more money in that 5th year than if he was locked in.

what are you talking about? The Nets have 3. The Lakers have 3. I'm pretty sure the Warriors have 3 or did have 3... and even 4 at some point with KD. The Cavs teams LeBron was on had 3.

 

[Hoop Head]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Guess it could be worse

Thank you Sacramento for bungling the handling of a young player worse than the Suns!

Of course Ayton has proved more than Bagley, that's no question, but that is a whole different level of disrespect. There's no two sides there or spin that can be applied.

 

[Cheesebeef]

aside from not signing Ayton, who we have this year, I thought we upgraded our depth over last year.

again, in A GOING FOR IT year, leaving us with only two actually legit big men, when there was money to spend and people to spend it on, is taking a big risk. I really like the additions of McGee and Shamet, and we are very stacked at the wing, but McGee can be injury prone and he is literally the only real dependable beef we have on this team outside Ayton. There was money and room to bolster that in a "going for it" year, especially when we saw how critical big man depth was last year in the Finals.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thank you Sacramento for bungling the handling of a young player worse than the Suns!

Of course Ayton has proved more than Bagley, that's no question, but that is a whole different level of disrespect. There's no two sides there or spin that can be applied.

only difference is no one gives a poop about Bagley.

 

[Hoop Head]

what are you talking about? The Nets have 3. The Lakers have 3. I'm pretty sure the Warriors have 3 or did have 3... and even 4 at some point with KD. The Cavs teams LeBron was on had 3.

Designated player max deals. Those that come with the 5th year. Those other teams don't have those. The Suns offered max money for 4 years to Ayton. They are different kinds and if you read the James Jones interview or read up on designated player max deals then it's easier to understand. It's tough to explain concisely.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This is all on Sarver. He had an opportunity to quell this reputation and he subesequently crapped the bed.

Is it on Sarver or on Jones? Legit question.

 

[Yuma]

again, in A GOING FOR IT year, leaving us with only two actually legit big men, when there was money to spend and people to spend it on, is taking a big risk. I really like the additions of McGee and Shamet, and we are very stacked at the wing, but McGee can be injury prone and he is literally the only real dependable beef we have on this team outside Ayton. There was money and room to bolster that in a "going for it" year, especially when we saw how critical big man depth was last year in the Finals.

It was explained they need that spot open for potential trade ability since we may have to trade 2 for one. The Suns said they want to have flexibility. Some of the guys available earlier, I didn't see really helping us, so I wasn't upset we passed on them. Probably going to have to wait for other guys to become trade eligible, etc.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton's agent and his entourage is going to be in his ear on this. On the flip side, I think it's a bad signal to the team to ask a player to play a certain way, and when he does, you don't reward him.

But did he completely? I mean, Monty was actually in the press about him wanting Ayton to play more physical and draw more fouls abd that just never occurred.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That's an interesting point. I wouldn't pay him because then I'd be asking how to make this team a title contender and the answer would likely be add a defensive big who can lock down the paint. It's tough but look at how Paul was an upgrade from Rubio for an example of that. Rubio was worth the money we paid him but Paul was worth twice what Rubio was because of his impact. Is Ayton really the absolute best Center we can add? I'm not sure. Like I've said before I think there are centers making less than max money who could produce what Ayton does and we see similar results.

I am not sure about this. Ayton is one of the better centers as far as the combo of offense and defense. He is just behind Embiid and Jokic.

The question is whether the center position is valued enough for him to the max deal. This can still be managed. The Suns can match any deal he is offered. He will be motivated this year. One of the most dangerous things I think we were going to face this year was a lazy Ayton after he got his second deal. I trust Jones on this. He seems to have a really good read on players.

 

[boisesuns]

It might be a huge risk, but I wonder if they are giving themselves some flexibility. Sounds like there’s no mid season sign and trade option?

I assume cp3 has a good evaluation of ayton behind closed doors. It was obvious he got on him all year then we saw him taking a jump to the next level. Would that have happened without cp3? I don’t know but that’s why we’re having the conversation of him getting paid the max. He’s shown it more lately he’s worth it and you hope he doesn’t go backwards.

 

[Chaplin]

The Lakers are different and you know it. That's an entire TEAM full of oldies. But even the Lakers aren't that short-sighted. They're not signing lots of long-term deals that are going clog the cap. They're going for bust with the golden oldies on one-year deals and can keep doing that so that once LeBron is gone, they can have a ton of cap space to build around Davis without the Shamets and Bridges' of the world taking up valuable cap space to get superstars. And the Lakers have actually shown the ability to get the HUGE FA. This team hasn't.

Sorry to tick you off, wasn't my intention. Signing an entire team of old vets is pretty short-sighted, especially if you are considered a championship contender.

Doesn't matter -- I'm done on this board for now. It's become unbearable.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Maybe its an excuse but if the plan is to try and replace Paul with a DeAaron Fox or Ja Morant type of young player then we'd be removing ourselves from the equation entirely by giving Ayton the max.

Another thing it limits is a teams ability to take Ayton in a trade also. If they already have 2 designated max deals then they can't trade for Ayton if he were on a Designated max. So it does limit options in a few ways, especially when there is no debate about our need to replace Paul in 2-3 years. You don't want to go into that period handcuffed.

This might be the main issue. Ayton is clearly the #3 player on this team, and is probably a #3 player on any championship-level team. They do not want to put him the pay category of a #1 or #2 player. That would limit their ability to replace Paul in the future.

The NBA is full of big players that looked near the top of the league and then gradually their limitations made their contracts look much less desirable: Cousins, Drummond, Adams, Gobert, Horford, Blake Griffin, DJordan, Whiteside, Capella, and more. In fact, with bigs, it seems to be more the rule than the exception. I love Ayton. I think he is an important part of this team. Hope this gets worked out.

 

[Yuma]

I am not sure about this. Ayton is one of the better centers as far as the combo of offense and defense. He is just behind Embiid and Jokic.

The question is whether the center position is valued enough for him to the max deal. This can still be managed. The Suns can match any deal he is offered. He will be motivated this year. One of the most dangerous things I think we were going to face this year was a lazy Ayton after he got his second deal. I trust Jones on this. He seems to have a really good read on players.

My understanding is the most another team can offer in restricted free agency is 4 years. The team can match. This would keep it from an NBA Rookie max, and keep the Suns signing flexibility alive.

I have been asking if Centers are valued enough in today's NBA to get a Max as easily as other positions. That's a question in today's NBA.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sorry to tick you off, wasn't my intention. Signing an entire team of old vets is pretty short-sighted, especially if you are considered a championship contender.

Doesn't matter -- I'm done on this board for now. It's become unbearable.

why do you have to do this Chap? merely answering your question doesn't mean I'm pissed off. please don't go back to this guy trying to start fights again with people who simply disagreed with your statement and then gave the reasons why. That makes the board unbearable because it just provokes fights where none should exist.

 

[Hoop Head]

My understanding is the most another team can offer in restricted free agency is 4 years. The team can match. This would keep it from an NBA Rookie max, and keep the Suns signing flexibility alive.

I have been asking if Centers are valued enough in today's NBA to get a Max as easily as other positions. That's a question in today's NBA.

You're correct except the language is a little different. A 5 year max is considered a designated player max and a team can only have 2, regardless of whether they signed the player to it themselves or traded for them. So the 4 year max we can match, that he'd get in the open market, keeps us from having 2 designated players. It's all fine print in contracts and deals that is meant to restrict player movement or encourage players to stick with their current team longer. That extra year is the issue. Apparently we tried to get a 4 year max salary deal done but Ayton's team wasn't receptive.