The Ayton Plan

[Covert Rain]

Yeah, it is a valid concern but unless they've seen good reason to doubt or question his growth, it wouldn't be enough to keep me from giving him the deal he wanted.

I agree with this too. This really comes down to pro vs con thing for me. I see more risk NOT doing this than doing it for all the reasons vomited on this thread.

 

[Proximo]

And I don’t think you know what your watching or what we ask Ayton to do.

The fact you think guys like McGee, Turner or Jarret Allen can do what Ayton does is flat out ridiculous.

Basketball isn’t as easy as you think it is

McGee is a significantly worse player than Ayton - let me make that clear in case anybody misunderstands me. I don't think there is a huge difference with the other two however if they are only asked to fill the same role Ayton was last year.

Ayton's major advantage is his post defense and defensive rebounding - he is truly elite at both.

Offensively he is a joke though for a max player. That is the issue. I have literally watched every single Suns game he has played in - I know how bad he is offensively if he is asked to create his own shot.

 

[Finito]

McGee is a significantly worse player than Ayton - let me make that clear in case anybody misunderstands me. I don't think there is a huge difference with the other two however if they are only asked to fill the same role Ayton was last year.

Ayton's major advantage is his post defense and defensive rebounding - he is truly elite at both.

Offensively he is a joke though for a max player. That is the issue. I have literally watched every single Suns game he has played in - I know how bad he is offensively if he is asked to create his own shot.

He’s flat out elite on the perimeter aswell his feet for a big guy are about as good as it gets.

His offensive is still better than any of those 3 by a country mile. Yes could he improve of course considering he just had a historic run in the playoffs at 22 years old. That can’t be overstated he’s a kid.

Either way I’m tired of this Sarver is Sarver and will never change. The season starts tonight but this is going to be a cloud that hangs over us all year

 

[Yuma]

Caught some sports radio on the way home today.

Tom Chambers was saying that during the regular season Ayton would have a big game. They would think he turned the corner and were expecting big games every night. He said they were disappointed he would would not have those big games every night. It sounds through Chambers the Suns are looking for Ayton to have those big games he is capable of, on a nightly basis.

Luke Lapinsky was referencing when Ayton had a monster game at UofA after the coach was suspended where Ayton played in anger. Luke says that is what Monty is referring to when they want Ayton to "play with force." I don't know why Monty just doesn't say they want him to play with anger, but that is what Monty is looking for.

So it sounds like they want him to play with an attitude, at his peak level, night in and night out.

 

[Hoop Head]

The Suns could add their choice of SGA, Young, Morant or Fox to Booker AND CP3, and it won't matter a darn bit if they don't have a single above-average interior player, which is where losing Ayton leaves them. They then become the Harden/Westbrook Rockets that was a year away from being the worst team in the NBA.

We saw a glimpse of the Suns built with Booker as the man and Ayton as his primary sidekick, they missed the playoffs. We needed another star to supplant Ayton. When that happened we made it to the finals. You predicted Booker would want out if we didn't upgrade the #2 and now you're claiming treating Ayton like a #3 is a mistake and we have zero hope of adding a #2. You're a joke. All you want to do is nit pick and complain. You keep saying what can't be done while failing to acknowledge what has been and refuse to admit anything has changed.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't see either of those guys anchoring a D or holding up vs. Davis/Jokic like Ayton.

Jokic knows that Ayton owns him, and even says as much. Being able to match up with any other big in the conference is a huge deal!

Jokic hit all his averages or surpassed them in the Denver series. How did Ayton own him?

Ayton played him well and made him work but this claim he owns Jokic or that Jokic fears him is nothing but overeating Ayton.

 

[Muggz]

Caught some sports radio on the way home today.

Tom Chambers was saying that during the regular season Ayton would have a big game. They would think he turned the corner and were expecting big games every night. He said they were disappointed he would would not have those big games every night. It sounds through Chambers the Suns are looking for Ayton to have those big games he is capable of, on a nightly basis.

Luke Lapinsky was referencing when Ayton had a monster game at UofA after the coach was suspended where Ayton played in anger. Luke says that is what Monty is referring to when they want Ayton to "play with force." I don't know why Monty just doesn't say they want him to play with anger, but that is what Monty is looking for.

So it sounds like they want him to play with an attitude, at his peak level, night in and night out.

Don't you mean Suns Legend Tom Chambers?

That's the thing, we all want DA to play with anger but from past experience he may not be that guy.
He may be now tho! Someone stick a photo of Sarver on the rim every night.
I hope he comes out on a rampage maybe this is the kind of boot in the ass he needed.

 

[Hoop Head]

Caught some sports radio on the way home today.

Tom Chambers was saying that during the regular season Ayton would have a big game. They would think he turned the corner and were expecting big games every night. He said they were disappointed he would would not have those big games every night. It sounds through Chambers the Suns are looking for Ayton to have those big games he is capable of, on a nightly basis.

Luke Lapinsky was referencing when Ayton had a monster game at UofA after the coach was suspended where Ayton played in anger. Luke says that is what Monty is referring to when they want Ayton to "play with force." I don't know why Monty just doesn't say they want him to play with anger, but that is what Monty is looking for.

So it sounds like they want him to play with an attitude, at his peak level, night in and night out.

Haven't you heard enough Monty-isms to know the answer to that? Monty is way too nice of a guy to tell anyone to get angry. He coaches around it in his way, like you said regarding "playing with force". It's just how Monty talks though. I'm sure Chris Paul and Booker translate Monty's message for Ayton when necessary. Telling him to go out there and embarrass someone and their children. Attack like they insulted your mother.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Jokic hit all his averages or surpassed them in the Denver series. How did Ayton own him?

Jokic as the REIGNING MVP was played to a standstill by DA, and Jokic had his team swept. Honestly, do you remember even watching the series?

https://fansided.com/2021/06/10/deandre-ayton-nikola-jokic-matchup-swinging-series-suns-favor/

Ayton played him well and made him work but this claim he owns Jokic or that Jokic fears him is nothing but overeating Ayton.

Nikola Jokic just said Deandre Ayton is the center he’s had the most problems with this year

Someone is overeating, but it isn't me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Jokic as the REIGNING MVP was played to a standstill by DA, and Jokic had his team swept. Honestly, do you remember even watching the series?

https://fansided.com/2021/06/10/deandre-ayton-nikola-jokic-matchup-swinging-series-suns-favor/



Nikola Jokic just said Deandre Ayton is the center he’s had the most problems with this year

Someone is overeating, but it isn't me.

Saying another center is the one that gives you the most problems is not the same as saying you're afraid of him or anything like that. DA played well against Jokic but it's not like he shut him down.

Jokic still averaged 25 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists and a block against us in the playoffs which was pretty close to his regular season numbers. Don't get me wrong, there's not question that playing the MVP almost straight up is pretty impressive for a young big man.

 

[TJ]

Isn’t Sarver bad enough? You want to foist Paul upon us as well? A pox on you!

LOL I'll take Paul if it means making Sarver's life hell. Im disappointed in myself for giving Sarver the benefit of the doubt that he learned his lessons. Shame on me

 

[Covert Rain]

Jokic hit all his averages or surpassed them in the Denver series. How did Ayton own him?

Ayton played him well and made him work but this claim he owns Jokic or that Jokic fears him is nothing but overeating Ayton.

It wasn't as much as what Ayton did to stop Jokic as much as what Jokic being nullified by Ayton which is barely happens against Jokic. They had no answer for Ayton. It allowed the Suns to keep Jokic honest on defense which in turn opened up our offense. Jokic unlike most teams had to pay attention to the opposing center.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah and we’ve seen others run with or misunderstand that spin saying we can’t have three MAX contracts if they re-sign Ayton. And that’s just not true. The Lakers, Warriors, Nets, Denver and I think even the Heat all have three guys on MAX contracts. The Sixers have 2 and a massive contract with Harris. And don’t the Bucks have three guys on MAX deals also?

Are you really still not understanding the difference? It’s been explained to you already.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Using WHAT to trade? Landry Shamet, Saric and Stix? Sorry, the only way a trade for one of those guys happen is IF Ayton was used to close the deal. The idea that was the reason why we didn’t want to give Ayton 5 is incredibly specious to me.

If one of them demands their way out I’d be happy to have the flexibility to give them the Boris diaw and picks pupu platter. Maybe Bridges, stix (particularly if he can show he can play) and two firsts gets something done for one of them.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You’re making it out to be a plausible scenario that we could do that without trading away one of the MAX deal guys to make it happen. It’s spin by the Suns and the usual defenders of Sarver previously when we were awful have lined up to support it.

Wouldn’t have to be one of the max guys. Like I said, could be Bridges and stix plus picks or even cam Johnson instead of stix. That’s not garbage. And yeah it would hurt our depth, but starting with a core of morant/Booker/Ayton or fox/Booker/Ayton I’m pretty sure we could find bets willing to come ride the championship train.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Answers to everything else you've asked have been given, you can ignore them but that doesn't create answers that you will like. As to this point though the market doesn't really dictate years in a contract, it dictates money. Ayton could have received max money but he wanted 5 years and only 1 team can give that, the Suns. They chose not to. You can dislike that and so can Ayton but there are reasons for that. The market can't offer him a 5 year deal. At most he can get a 4 deal elsewhere. The Suns can still offer more money by way of larger salary increases annually and have the right to match any offer he receives next summer.

Unless he does something to change the front offices mind, they aren't giving him 5 years, even then it's not a guarantee they will. He'd need to play out his qualifying offer in the following season to leave to his preferred destination and then sign for 3 years there in hopes they'll offer a 5 year deal at that time. So it'll take 4 years for him to get a 5 year deal elsewhere, if that's what he's set on.

This post is just so accurate it makes me question how it made it onto our board of hysteria.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I hope you're right, but part of me worries it's cover for a financial decision, not a basketball one.

That could very well be true too given . . . Sarver.

I’ve never been so in the middle of a decision where I see valid points almost evenly counterbalancing the other as I see in the Ayton non-extension. It’s an uncomfortable feeling not having a strong reaction in a singular direction.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ha, you can call them answers if you like, some might call them excuses.


Wrong, it's both! If other lesser players get 5 years, then the expectation is set. Ayton wanted a 5 year max for that reason, you understand this, right?


Of course! That's their leverage, and what they tried to use to get Ayton to sign a lesser deal.


Yeah, and this is why Sarver has chosen to alienate a young superstar, and you among others have accepted the rationale behind it, in spite of 10+ years of mismanagement. In case you hadn't noticed, this is an all in league. If you're making decisions based on financials and not basketball, you will not win a championship.

I hope it's not a distraction, I hope it motivates Ayton and works out in the end, and I hope that we'll add another superstar down the line, but we could have saved a lot of headaches by just extending him.

I bet you won't be so understanding if this all blows up in our faces.

I gotta say I worry about it being a distraction to Ayton. But if it is and he sucks and our season suffers because of it, so will his contract at years end. So I can’t see him doing anything but maximizing this year. Now, he could be so butthurt that he doesn’t want to sign with the suns long term, but there’s four primary reasons I don’t see that happening:

1. The suns can still offer the longest and most $$$ - he’s clearly motivated by that. And it’s a primary motivation.
2. He’s a RFA - so suns can match anything
3. I don’t see him playing for the QO
4. I think he genuinely loves his teammates. And yes, lots of players leave teammates they love. But Ayton is still a big kid. A big puppy dog. If he gets his bags and still can play with his buddies I think he shrugs his Jamaican shoulders and says “no worries” and is a sun for a long time.

None of that changes the criticism the suns will face all season. And yeah some may be chirping in Ayton’s ear. But who gets to talk with him the most? Paul, book and Monty. And that’s greatly in our favor.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So much this. It's a razor thin excuse in which the Suns seem to have moved the goal post multiple times in their "explanation". I get what Hoop is saying that it's not just about rookies. Still....you have to have the assets to make a move to get said player worthy of a max. You likely would need to give up Booker or Ayton to get said player. It's a miracle scenario. It's why the excuse is such weaksauce.

No you wouldn’t and it’s been proven over and over again on this very thread. If there’s a disgruntled player we would actually likely be an enviable position to get him with Bridges, cam Johnson, shamet, maybe stix and all of our draft picks to sling at a team. Most teams couldn’t match that.

 

[Covert Rain]

No you wouldn’t and it’s been proven over and over again on this very thread. If there’s a disgruntled player we would actually likely be an enviable position to get him with Bridges, cam Johnson, shamet, maybe stix and all of our draft picks to sling at a team. Most teams couldn’t match that.

Again, it's not a matter of could it happen but would it happen. Look at all the trades that go down by teams in a given season. This is likely what 5% of the total trades where a team ends up with a star max player?!?! Less?!?! Coming up with a plausible scenario is not the same thing as a likely one.

 

[Hoop Head]

No you wouldn’t and it’s been proven over and over again on this very thread. If there’s a disgruntled player we would actually likely be an enviable position to get him with Bridges, cam Johnson, shamet, maybe stix and all of our draft picks to sling at a team. Most teams couldn’t match that.

I can get peoples anger and frustration to an extent. It sucks Ayton isn't signed, there's no two ways about that, but I can't handle the negative cascade it's created where since he's not signed everything is now falling apart or impossible.

There's a chance James Jones is in spin mode, I won't deny that, but the spin he's put on it seems to indicate he knows the intricacies of his position much better than anyone playing armchair GM because the things he brought up were never even floated as theories prior everything happening. Spin usually involves leaning hard into an existing narrative and the complexities of NBA contracts and designated player max deals werent on anyones mind. Spin to me would have been pushing the motivation narrative that was prevalent amongst Suns fans and those who have followed Ayton.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think it's been brought up but it's going to be hard to beat out OKC if a star become available (they covet) using no more than a mediocre trade package. I've lost count of the number of first round picks they have, maybe 16-17.

Most likely if the Suns trade for another star it's going to need to include Ayton unless a player like Bridges blossoms into a star in his own right this season.

Ayton can be bundled with other players (which has already been discussed) in a trade for a player like Karl-Anthony Towns.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So much this. It's a razor thin excuse in which the Suns seem to have moved the goal post multiple times in their "explanation". I get what Hoop is saying that it's not just about rookies. Still....you have to have the assets to make a move to get said player worthy of a max. You likely would need to give up Booker or Ayton to get said player. It's a miracle scenario. It's why the excuse is such weaksauce.

That's a hell of a gamble to take on a 23 year old big man who anchored our D to 2 games from a title.

Big men take longer to develop, that's to be sure. There also is no replacement for Ayton anywhere in the league. Who else can guard Jokic/AD, and score as efficiently as Ayton?

it's pretty ridiculous. Did we see any team previously do this while building their team with two young potential superstars or guys that would definitely get the MAX on the open market? Tell one of them "well, it's not that you're not MAX worthy, we think you are, but we want you on a shorter deal so we can get a better MAX worthy guy on a better contract possibly later".

Wouldn’t have to be one of the max guys. Like I said, could be Bridges and stix plus picks or even cam Johnson instead of stix. That’s not garbage. And yeah it would hurt our depth, but starting with a core of morant/Booker/Ayton or fox/Booker/Ayton I’m pretty sure we could find bets willing to come ride the championship train.

Sorry, but a 3 and D great role player like Bridges isn’t going to be enough of a centerpiece of a trade for a Ja Morant/Trey Young type. And yes, I think it’s ridiculous to even bring those guys up at this point or anyone approaching that obvious MEGASTARDOM. Those are legit franchise guys.

 

[Covert Rain]

I can get peoples anger and frustration to an extent. It sucks Ayton isn't signed, there's no two ways about that, but I can't handle the negative cascade it's created where since he's not signed everything is now falling apart or impossible.

There's a chance James Jones is in spin mode, I won't deny that, but the spin he's put on it seems to indicate he knows the intricacies of his position much better than anyone playing armchair GM because the things he brought up were never even floated as theories prior everything happening. Spin usually involves leaning hard into an existing narrative and the complexities of NBA contracts and designated player max deals werent on anyones mind. Spin to me would have been pushing the motivation narrative that was prevalent amongst Suns fans and those who have followed Ayton.

Are you taking an official poll? Because I see lots of people simply upset by the unnecessary distraction this has become. I see people upset about the weaksauce reasoning all over the place from the Suns. I see people wondering what impact this is going to have on the team or Ayton himself. I see people upset that if Ayton wants eventually he can manipulate his way out of here and the chances of the Suns getting anything equal to fill isn't likely and would have a cascade effect on the Suns.

That's all reasonable. I don't see many people already mailing it in and deciding that there is no reason to play the season.

In terms of spin? Spin to me is indicated by inconsistent statements. Spin to me is reaching for every plausible scenario to control the narrative.

No need to jump off the cliff just yet. I think the team can still be great this season. I also believe that winning cures all ills (at least temporarily).

 

[Hoop Head]

Again, it's not a matter of could it happen but would it happen. Look at all the trades that go down by teams in a given season. This is likely what 5% of the total trades where a team ends up with a star max player?!?! Less?!?! Coming up with a plausible scenario is not the same thing as a likely one.

Not sure where you're pulling this 5% from. Ben Simmons is a PG on a contract the Suns could not add right now if they chose to pursue him had they signed Ayton because he's on a designated player max. So we'd be stuck watching someone else add him while our hole at PG goes unfilled. I'm confident a package of Bridges, Cam J, and picks is better than any deal they get outside of a Damien Lillard trade.

There will be more situations like that in the future that present themselves as we look to replace Paul after the next year or two. We're staying in a position to try and throw our hat in the ring rather than settling. I don't see that as a negative.

Stars aren't always available but once they are, you don't want to be limited or stopped from going after them. That's the hole point in keeping that second designated player spot open.