The Ayton Plan

[Covert Rain]

Not sure where you're pulling this 5% from. Ben Simmons is a PG on a contract the Suns could not add right now if they chose to pursue him had they signed Ayton because he's on a designated player max. So we'd be stuck watching someone else add him while our hole at PG goes unfilled. I'm confident a package of Bridges, Cam J, and picks is better than any deal they get outside of a Damien Lillard trade.

There will be more situations like that in the future that present themselves as we look to replace Paul after the next year or two. We're staying in a position to try and throw our hat in the ring rather than settling. I don't see that as a negative.

Stars aren't always available but once they are, you don't want to be limited or stopped from going after them. That's the hole point in keeping that second designated player spot open.

I was simply making the point that most trades don't involve max players. You don't need to pull up every trade to know that the vast majority of trades don't involve acquiring max contract players. Don't be ridiculous. The NBA doesn't revolve around the Suns. Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Even IF that scenario presented itself you have all of the other teams competing thinking the same thing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was simply making the point that most trades don't involve max players. You don't need to pull up every trade to know that the vast majority of trades don't involve acquiring max contract players. Don't be ridiculous. The NBA doesn't revolve around the Suns. Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Even IF that scenario presented itself you have all of the other teams competing thinking the same thing.

Exactly. Some are acting like the Suns decision here has revolutionized the wheel and previous teams that have had the opportunity to MAX out two young core pieces have been clueless as to needing “flexibility” moving forward.

Also, people REALLY need to start separating posters anger over a UNIVERSALLY DESTROYED move from the same posters excitement for the season. I think what we did was criminally stupid but I CANT WAIT to watch this team this year. Don’t start projecting that kind of BS on posters. It’s just gonna bring flame wars.

 

[Hoop Head]

Are you taking an official poll? Because I see lots of people simply upset by the unnecessary distraction this has become. I see people upset about the weaksauce reasoning all over the place form the Suns. I see people wondering what impact this is going to have on the team or Ayton himself. I see people upset that if Ayton wants eventually he can manipulate his way out of here and the chances of the Suns getting anything equal to fill isn't likely would have a cascade effect on the Suns.

Im fine with everything up to the bolded part because for Ayton to manipulate his way it will cost him a lot of money he can't recoup. If he takes the qualifying offer, for example, he's leaving about $16 million dollars on the table and he can't get that back. He can do so in order to sign a max deal elsewhere but it will be the same 4 year max the Suns wanted him to take. So he'd essentially give up $16 million to walk away? I'll believe that when I see it. No one has ever done that before in the NBA. He literally can't get that extra year anywhere else so while he can try and force his way out over that, it will be costly.

It seems money motivates him a great deal so it would really be going against almost all he's said and done over the last 3 seasons to when he declared for the draft.

I think his agents messed up more than the Suns did. If he only wanted to be here because of that 5th year then he probably didn't want to be here that bad. As said, he can actually make more money with a 4 year max which allows him to sign a new deal sooner. That's part of why players want opt out clauses because league rules permit a player to get 30% of the cap max salary after 6 years in the league, which he'd hit after 2 years of an extension. If he's going to ball out and play like a max guy then he'll benefit more financially quicker than his peers. Isn't it about making the most money possible?

 

[Mainstreet]

James Jones says the Suns were not interested in giving Ayton a 5 year max. That's the bottom line.

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[Covert Rain]

Im fine with everything up to the bolded part because for Ayton to manipulate his way it will cost him a lot of money he can't recoup. If he takes the qualifying offer, for example, he's leaving about $16 million dollars on the table and he can't get that back. He can do so in order to sign a max deal elsewhere but it will be the same 4 year max the Suns wanted him to take. So he'd essentially give up $16 million to walk away? I'll believe that when I see it. No one has ever done that before in the NBA. He literally can't get that extra year anywhere else so while he can try and force his way out over that, it will be costly.

It seems money motivates him a great deal so it would really be going against almost all he's said and done over the last 3 seasons to when he declared for the draft.

I think his agents messed up more than the Suns did. If he only wanted to be here because of that 5th year then he probably didn't want to be here that bad. As said, he can actually make more money with a 4 year max which allows him to sign a new deal sooner. That's part of why players want opt out clauses because league rules permit a player to get 30% of the cap max salary after 6 years in the league, which he'd hit after 2 years of an extension. If he's going to ball out and play like a max guy then he'll benefit more financially quicker than his peers. Isn't it about making the most money possible?

I call b.s. We have seen players manipulate their way out of town when they don't want to be there. Everybody is stuck on the short term gain. The vast majority of times I recall a player saying they are done with a team, want to be traded or simply said they are not returning have managed just that.

You have no idea where the player could go. If it's a big market team he can make up for it in a number of ways. Sure, he may not make it back in the short term but over the long haul I guarantee many players will give up the short term satisfaction over being somewhere they want to be. Overall how many times have you actually seen the opposite where a player truly doesn't want to be there and stays put?

Key here isn't the money. Ayton has made no such declaration he wants out. Hey may not. I don't think he does. However, if he does? It's all she wrote regardless of him losing money. He will find a way out.

 

[Covert Rain]

James Jones says the Suns were not interested in giving Ayton a 5 year max. That's the bottom line.

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According to Ayton's camp they did not offer a max PERIOD. The Suns better be careful about talking about this. It's just going to piss the Ayton camp off even more.

 

[Mainstreet]

According to Ayton's camp they did not offer a max PERIOD.

I was not involved in negotiations so it's trying to put the pieces together and figure it out.

Perhaps Ayton's camp was stuck on a 5 year contract. Both sides could be technically correct if that was the only contract put up for discussion.

 

[Hoop Head]

According to Ayton's camp they did not offer a max PERIOD. The Suns better be careful about talking about this. It's just going to piss the Ayton camp off even more.

Saying they didn't offer the max period is semantics. Sure, he can be frustrated because he didn't get the 5 year max but his team said they weren't considering anything less than that. What James Jones is saying shouldn't be that upsetting since it does not contradict what his team is saying.

 

[Covert Rain]

I was not involved in negotiations so it's trying to put the pieces together and figure it out.

Perhaps Ayton's camp was stuck on a 5 year contract. That could be true for both sides if that was the only contract put up for discussion.

My issue with the Suns is "multitude of reasons". It appears they are trying to control the narrative by coming up with all these "reasons". According to the Suns it was "evident" and yet they still discussed 3 to 4 year max. While also saying there really wasn't negotiations. Huh?!?!!? The Suns are all over the place. Ayton's camp denies it. How do you peace that together?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly. Some are acting like the Suns decision here has revolutionized the wheel and previous teams that have had the opportunity to MAX out two young core pieces have been clueless as to needing “flexibility” moving forward.

Also, people REALLY need to start separating posters anger over a UNIVERSALLY DESTROYED move from the same posters excitement for the season. I think what we did was criminally stupid but I CANT WAIT to watch this team this year. Don’t start projecting that kind of BS on posters. It’s just gonna bring flame wars.

Those two sentences collide.

 

[Proximo]

Jokic hit all his averages or surpassed them in the Denver series. How did Ayton own him?

Ayton played him well and made him work but this claim he owns Jokic or that Jokic fears him is nothing but overeating Ayton.

Nobody stops Jokic, but Ayton makes him far less efficent.

I will give Ayton this, nobody plays Jokic as well as he does, and Jokic has said as much.

 

[Hoop Head]

I call b.s. We have seen players manipulate their way out of town when they don't want to be there. Everybody is stuck on the short term gain. The vast majority of times I recall a player saying they are done with a team, want to be traded or simply said they are not returning have managed just that.

You have no idea where the player could go. If it's a big market team he can make up for it in a number of ways. Sure, he may not make it back in the short term but over the long haul I guarantee many players will give up the short term satisfaction over being somewhere they want to be. Overall how many times have you actually seen the opposite where a player truly doesn't want to be there and stays put?

Key here isn't the money. Ayton has made no such declaration he wants out. Hey may not. I don't think he does. However, if he does? It's all she wrote regardless of him losing money. He will find a way out.

I remember Eric Gordon telling New Orleans not match the max offer sheet the Suns signed him to and they opted to do so anyway and he stayed there and moved on.

Can you think of an instance where a player left so much money on the table to walk away? I can't. In today's digital world market really doesn't matter as much as it used to. That's a lot of money to make up. Not that it can't be but it's unlikely he could in short order.

 

[Mainstreet]

My issue with the Suns is "multitude of reasons". It appears they are trying to control the narrative by coming up with all these "reasons". According to the Suns it was "evident" and yet they still discussed 3 to 4 year max. While also saying there really wasn't negotiations. Huh?!?!!? The Suns are all over the place. Ayton's camp denies it. How do you peace that together?

If a 5 year, $207 million max was the only contract Ayton's camp wanted there would not be much to discuss if the Suns were unwilling to do a 5 year contract.

We do know that Robert Sarver personally met with Ayton and there is a picture to prove it.

 

[Covert Rain]

I remember Eric Gordon telling New Orleans not match the max offer sheet the Suns signed him to and they opted to do so anyway and he stayed there and moved on.

Can you think of an instance where a player left so much money on the table to walk away? I can't. In today's digital world market really doesn't matter as much as it used to. That's a lot of money to make up. Not that it can't be but it's unlikely he could in short order.

So he did move on. I don't remember the logistics of that. I don't pay much attention to the money left on the table but yes I do seem to recall that coming up before. Again, that's not key. What is key is a player who truly doesn't want to be with this team that got out verses didn't get out. In the last 10 players who wanted out I seriously doubt the majority stayed. Ayton hasn't declared he wants out so that is where it has to start. I don't think he would stay money left on the table or not. You can disagree.

 

[Covert Rain]

If a 5 year $207 million max was the only contract Ayton's camp wanted there would not be much to discuss if the Suns were unwilling to do a 5 year contract.

We do know that Robert Sarver personally met with Ayton and there is a picture to prove it.

Ayton's camp is denying that they were offered any length of contract for the MAX. You don't bring that up if you were not at least willing to listen. Why bring it up then? Ayton's team is trying to say that the Suns wouldn't come to the table for any max. There is a difference.

 

[Proximo]

My issue with the Suns is "multitude of reasons". It appears they are trying to control the narrative by coming up with all these "reasons". According to the Suns it was "evident" and yet they still discussed 3 to 4 year max. While also saying there really wasn't negotiations. Huh?!?!!? The Suns are all over the place. Ayton's camp denies it. How do you peace that together?

There is obviously something they don't want to discuss in public. It's that simple.

 

[Covert Rain]

There is obviously something they don't want to discuss in public. It's that simple.

No doubt. We are NEVER going to get the full story. Both sides likely don't want to sabotage future talks.

 

[Proximo]

If a 5 year, $207 million max was the only contract Ayton's camp wanted there would not be much to discuss if the Suns were unwilling to do a 5 year contract.

We do know that Robert Sarver personally met with Ayton and there is a picture to prove it.

Yeah, and I think you have to be really naive to think contract terms were not discussed in some form during that meeting.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ayton's camp is denying that they were offered any length of contract for the MAX. You don't bring that up if you were not at least willing to listen. Why bring it up then? Ayton's team is trying to say that the Suns wouldn't come to the table for any max. There is a difference.

Do we know that the parameter's of an extension was not put down by Ayton's side? It sounds like Ayton wanted 5 years and the Suns didn't.

Why did Sarver bother to talk with him if there was no interest in making a deal. I'm sure the Suns would have been interested in a shorter contract or less years guaranteed.

 

[Covert Rain]

Do we know that the parameter's of an extension was not put down by Ayton's side? It sounds like Ayton wanted 5 years and the Suns didn't.

Why did Sarver bother to talk with him if there was no interest in making a deal. I'm sure the Suns would have been interested in a shorter contract.

On the flipside why bring up that the Suns never offered less of a max even though allegedly this was only about 5 years and 5 years only? Why did James say 3 to 4 years was discussed if there really was never a negotiation? None of this adds up.

My guess is Sarver wanted a home town discount. Maybe he was banking on the talk getting him to sign for less to help save on luxury tax. Who knows.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ayton's camp is denying that they were offered any length of contract for the MAX. You don't bring that up if you were not at least willing to listen. Why bring it up then? Ayton's team is trying to say that the Suns wouldn't come to the table for any max. There is a difference.

And so is James Jones, he said there was no negotiation because Ayton's agent said they wanted a 5 year full max and nothing else. It wasn't clear to me what Jones was saying about the 4 year max, - it sounded like he probably threw it out like "so you're saying you won't even consider a 4 year max or a 3 year max". But anyway, he also agrees that they never made a formal offer, of any kind, because Ayton's people made it clear there was no room for negotiation.

 

[Covert Rain]

And so is James Jones, he said there was no negotiation because Ayton's agent said they wanted a 5 year full max and nothing else. It wasn't clear to me what Jones was saying about the 4 year max, - it sounded like he probably threw it out like "so you're saying you won't even consider a 4 year max or a 3 year max". But anyway, he also agrees that they never made a formal offer, of any kind, because Ayton's people made it clear there was no room for negotiation.

You see that's not how it sounded to me. It sounded to me like well they never offered ANY MAX at all. So that's another reason there was not a negotiation. There are definitely two sides to this. Why deny it out of Ayton's camp unless the intention was to point out the Suns were not willing to do any max at all. Doesn't make much sense either.

 

[Mainstreet]

On the flipside why bring up that the Suns never offered less of a max even though allegedly this was only about 5 years and 5 years only? Why did James say 3 to 4 years was discussed if there really was never a negotiation? None of this adds up.

My guess is Sarver wanted a home town discount. Maybe he was banking on the talk getting him to sign for less to help save on luxury tax. Who knows.

Do we know Ayton's camp was willing to discuss a shorter contract? I haven't heard they were.

 

[Covert Rain]

Do we know Ayton's camp was willing to discuss a shorter contract? I haven't heard they were.

Do we know if the Suns were willing to do any max at all? Sounds like the answer was no. To come down from a 5 year max is one thing. To come down to ZERO years at MAX would be a hard pill to swallow. As I stated sounds like there were two sides to this. Maybe both were to blame for the talks breaking down?!?!?

 

[Mainstreet]

Do we know if the Suns were willing to do any max at all? Sounds like the answer was no. To come down from a 5 year max is one thing. To come down to ZERO years at MAX would be a hard pill to swallow. As I stated sounds like there were two sides to this. Maybe both were to blame for the talks breaking down?!?!?

This is fair. I think the Suns could have pushed harder to make a deal but James Jones was comfortable with the hand dealt.