The Ayton Plan

[JCSunsfan]

Just a reminder, the Suns tried multiple times to turn college centers, who just couldn't hack center in the NBA, into power forwards---Shumate, Perry, for ex.
They were better off when they had a weaker (but good shooting) center like Adams and put power forwards around him. Probably the only thing the late 80s early 90s team lacked was a solid center.

It's been an issue since the Alcindor coin flip.

True, but there is nothing in common between this team and those teams. Not one owner, coach, or front office person. The culture is completely new. The only thing the same is a few fans--

And Al McCoy.

 

[Drop_D]

Probably the only thing the late 80s early 90s team lacked was a solid center.

Umm, I think Mark West may have something to say about that. We don’t beat the Lakers in the playoffs for the first time without him.

 

[Hoop Head]

Umm, I think Mark West may have something to say about that. We don’t beat the Lakers in the playoffs for the first time without him.

I like Mark West but outside of a good playoff series or two, he's no better than average. He's good compared to some of the duds the Suns wheeled out there but he was never more than a stop gap type Center who should be only be used until a better player can be found. In no way was he someone you were happy about having when comparing starters with our opponents. How many times could you say "Well we got West at Center and they got ? so we have the advantage there."? I'd wager that only happened when our opponents starting Center was injured.

 

[TJ]

Umm, I think Mark West may have something to say about that. We don’t beat the Lakers in the playoffs for the first time without him.

Mark West was a walking six fouls on the court. Dude could foul out of a game in 15 min with the best of them

 

[elindholm]

Mark West was a walking six fouls on the court. Dude could foul out of a game in 15 min with the best of them

True, but in his defense, officials often called fouls on him just for taking the floor. It wasn't uncommon for him to be called for a foul when he had been nowhere near the play and hadn't done anything. It's just that this was before the days when players and coaches whined about every foul called. West figured it was his role to shut up and take the blame.

 

[JCSunsfan]

West was a smart guy. A friend of mine worked with him at a local brokerage after he retired. West got a call from Cleveland to come out of retirement and be a back up. He was going to get the vet min which I think was $1 million. My friend asked him if he was going to do it and West said "My wife told me I have to. It's a million dollars to watch basketball games from the best seat in the house!"

 

[Covert Rain]

Suns general manager James Jones told The Athletic's Sam Amick that Phoenix was open to discussing a three- or four-year max contract, but the two sides didn't have any "real negotiations." Ayton's agents, Bill Duffy and Nima Namakian, claimed that the Suns never offered a max deal of any kind.

"I mean, obviously, we're disappointed that we couldn't reach an extension agreement this offseason," Jones said. "Deandre is important for us. He means a lot to us and was vital in what we did and what we've done this past season."

Why Deandre Ayton, Suns failed to reach agreement on max contract extension | Sporting News

Why Ayton didn't sign max extension with Suns

www.sportingnews.com

So I guess that depends on which side you believe. I don't think the Suns EVER offered him a max or had any intention of doing so. They wanted to see how he plays this season and knew nobody could match their offer in the offseason.

 

[JCSunsfan]

So I guess that depends on which side you believe. I don't think the Suns EVER offered him a max or had any intention of doing so. They wanted to see how he plays this season and knew nobody could match their offer in the offseason.

I tend to believe what people say unless proven wrong. JJ said they were open to discussing three or four years of a max which kinda says that the discussion never happened. Easy to believe that both are telling the truth here.

Got a feeling it was Ayton's people who said "only come here with a 5 year max or dont bother at all." Sounds like JJ said,"ok, I won't make an offer then." Just reading between the lines. No way of really knowing for sure.

 

[Hoop Head]

I tend to believe what people say unless proven wrong. JJ said they were open to discussing three or four years of a max which kinda says that the discussion never happened. Easy to believe that both are telling the truth here.

Got a feeling it was Ayton's people who said "only come here with a 5 year max or dont bother at all." Sounds like JJ said,"ok, I won't make an offer then." Just reading between the lines. No way of really knowing for sure.

That was the most frustrating part once JJ's interview came out. He said they tried discussing a 3-4 year max but Ayton's team made it clear they weren't accepting anything less than the 5 year max. Ayton's team overplayed their hand and a lot of people believe their side of things simply because JJ didn't deny their narrative entirely. Both sides can be right in this but you need to look at the full picture to see that.

 

[Covert Rain]

I tend to believe what people say unless proven wrong. JJ said they were open to discussing three or four years of a max which kinda says that the discussion never happened. Easy to believe that both are telling the truth here.

Got a feeling it was Ayton's people who said "only come here with a 5 year max or dont bother at all." Sounds like JJ said,"ok, I won't make an offer then." Just reading between the lines. No way of really knowing for sure.

Being open and actually discussing are two different things. If the Suns WANTED to get it done, they would have put the offer out their regardless. If they felt he was a MUST resign they put it out there. I think the Suns had this planned all along in retrospect. I really think they had a strategy to not do anything this offseason all along. I think if Ayton's team did put a hard stop on anything less that 5? It was the perfect out.

 

[Yuma]

I am just logically thinking the Suns wanted a 3 or 4 year deal to get this over with. The other side wanted 5 years. The Suns know, this is just going to happen all over again this off season. What the Suns plan is at that point, forcing a 4 year deal because of matching an offer, who knows?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I am just logically thinking the Suns wanted a 3 or 4 year deal to get this over with. The other side wanted 5 years. The Suns know, this is just going to happen all over again this off season. What the Suns plan is at that point, forcing a 4 year deal because of matching an offer, who knows?

I think we offer him a 5 year max contract the moment we're allowed to and he either accepts it or they counter with the same deal plus a player option for the last year (or last two if that's allowed). AFAIC the biggest risk of this not happening centers around Sarver and the investigation.

 

[Finito]

I think we offer him a 5 year max contract the moment we're allowed to and he either accepts it or they counter with the same deal plus a player option for the last year (or last two if that's allowed). AFAIC the biggest risk of this not happening centers around Sarver and the investigation.

I think what Amin said about the situation is true Sarver didn’t pay him because he doesn’t have to right now. He’s not going to commit until he has no choice.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think what Amin said about the situation is true Sarver didn’t pay him because he doesn’t have to right now. He’s not going to commit until he has no choice.

Agree with this.

 

[Covert Rain]

Another discussion prompted me to see where Ayton ranks on RAW numbers all right now compared to his peers regular season, playoffs (both Active and All Time) and throwing out all the other accomplishments above. I had no idea and have to admit I am a bit surprised (for now). Forget the likelihood part of this continuing (it spoils everything. ). This is strictly a hypothetical.

If he was to stay on this pace to be a Top 10 Center in the regular season and arguably better in the playoffs for the duration of his career? He could have a legit shot at the HOF IMO. WAY TO EARLY I KNOW. IMO he would be measured against this era and his peers when it came down to votes. I am no way saying it's going to happen or that he can keep this up.

Active Centers (Historical) - Regular Season Rankings (Qualified):
16 PPG Ranks #6 (tied with Dwight Howard)
10.7 RPB Ranks #7
1.1 BPG Ranks #17 (tied with Robin Lopez)
.58 FG% Ranks #7

Right now among his peers he is top 6 in PPG , Top 7 RPG and FG%. That is really good out of 4 main categories in the regular season.

Active Centers (Historical) - Playoff Rankings (Qualified):
15.8 PPG Ranks #4
11.8 RPB Ranks #2 (tied with Dwight Howard)
1 BPG Ranks #12 (tied with JaVale McGee, Jarrett Alen, Andre Drummond)
65% Ranks #4

The caveat here is small sample size.

Centers All Time - Regular Season Rankings (Qualified):
16 PPG Ranks #27 (tied with Dwight Howard)
10.7 RPB Ranks #20 (tied with Alex Groza)
1.1 BPG Ranks #103 (tied with Mychal Thompson)
.58 FG% Ranks #9

So these numbers may not seem that impressive until you realize this is among all the centers in the NBA since 1946.

Centers All Time - Playoff Rankings (Qualified):
15.8 PPG Ranks #18
11.8 RPB Ranks #4 (tied with Dwight Howard)
1 BPG Ranks #71 (tied with Bosch, Chandler, McGee, Alen, Bradley, Perkins, Anthony, Drummond, Seiklay, Ervin Johnson, Illgauskas)
65% Ranks #8

The caveat here again is small sample size.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think what Amin said about the situation is true Sarver didn’t pay him because he doesn’t have to right now. He’s not going to commit until he has no choice.

Then why pay Shamet and Bridges? It's not like they were cheap. Server has paid guys early before, Booker also got a max extension early. The signs point more towards Ayton demanding more than the team was comfortable with rather than Server being cheap.

 

[Finito]

Then why pay Shamet and Bridges? It's not like they were cheap. Server has paid guys early before, Booker also got a max extension early. The signs point more towards Ayton demanding more than the team was comfortable with rather than Server being cheap.

Idk maybe just a little bit of a difference between paying Shamet a deal that’s not even guaranteed after two years. Same with Paul. Those deals are easy when there only guaranteed 2 years. You think it’s the same thing?

In 17+ years only 2 guys have gotten the max from Sarver

But what do I know. Sarver does have a great reputation when it comes to money around the league so maybe you are right

 

[Covert Rain]

Then why pay Shamet and Bridges? It's not like they were cheap. Server has paid guys early before, Booker also got a max extension early. The signs point more towards Ayton demanding more than the team was comfortable with rather than Server being cheap.

Who here is up to date on our cap? Would have signing Ayton to the Max this year put us in the luxury tax next year? If so, that explains it all. I don't care what Sarver says. He has only paid the luxury tax once in 2009-2010 season. Never since. When they signed Shamet to a 4 year $43 million dollar contract I thought that might seal that Ayton wasn't getting his extension this season.

Again not up on the cap or the implications but I think the tax line is projected around 145 million next year. I bet Smith and Dario are not on this roster when they extend Ayton just to save money. Dario takes up 9.2 million correct? I won't be shocked if the Suns make moves to keep them under the threshold. That would only solidify this was more about limiting tax liability more than anything. The Suns knew they didn't have to do anything right now.

Look I don't think Sarver is as "cheap" as some people think he is but he isn't Balmer either. Sarver has his limits and he has proven over and over he will interject if he doesn't like the load on the pocket book.

 

[Hoop Head]

Who here is up to date on our cap? Would have signing Ayton to the Max this year put us in the luxury tax? If so, that explains it all. I don't care what Sarver says. He has only paid the luxury tax once in 2009-2010 season. Never since. When they signed Shamet to a 4 year $43 million dollar contract I thought that might seal that Ayton wasn't getting his extension this season.

Again not up on the cap or the implications but I think the tax line is projected around 145 million next year. I bet Smith and Dario are not on this roster when they extend Ayton just to save money. Dario takes up 9.2 million correct? I won't be shocked if the Suns make moves to keep them under the threshold. That would only solidify this was more about limiting tax liability more than anything. The Suns knew they didn't have to do anything right now.

Look I don't think Sarver is as "cheap" as some people think he is but he isn't Balmer either. Sarver has his limits and he has proven over and over he will interject if he doesn't like the load on the pocket book.

Ayton's extension has zero bearing on the cap or luxury tax this season.

 

[Hoop Head]

Idk maybe just a little bit of a difference between paying Shamet a deal that’s not even guaranteed after two years. Same with Paul. Those deals are easy when there only guaranteed 2 years. You think it’s the same thing?

In 17+ years only 2 guys have gotten the max from Sarver

But what do I know. Sarver does have a great reputation when it comes to money around the league so maybe you are right

Ayton is not a sure thing like Amare or Booker were. I don't see the fault in not believing Ayton is worth the 5 year max. You can twist that however you want but even here there have been plenty of questions of whether he's worth that much. James Jones was clear that the team was open to a 3-4 year max but Ayton's people weren't receptive to any less than the full 5 year max so there was no real negotiations to be had.

 

[Finito]

Ayton is not a sure thing like Amare or Booker were. I don't see the fault in not believing Ayton is worth the 5 year max. You can twist that however you want but even here there have been plenty of questions of whether he's worth that much. James Jones was clear that the team was open to a 3-4 year max but Ayton's people weren't receptive to any less than the full 5 year max so there was no real negotiations to be had.

Didn’t Sarver give Amare his contract after he got hurt

 

[Hoop Head]

Didn’t Sarver give Amare his contract after he got hurt

I don't recall the timeline exactly. I believe his knee was bothering him but it wasn't known he'd require microfracture surgery yet. It was after Nash's first year back when we lost to San Antonio in 5.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't recall the timeline exactly. I believe his knee was bothering him but it wasn't known he'd require microfracture surgery yet. It was after Nash's first year back when we lost to San Antonio in 5.

yup. he got the contract the summer after we lost to the Spurs, but they didn't realize he needed micro until right before training camp.

 

[AzStevenCal]

yup. he got the contract the summer after we lost to the Spurs, but they didn't realize he needed micro until right before training camp.

Yeah and for many of us we couldn't escape the Eric Swann, Andre Wadsworth and Penny Hardaway memories.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah and for many of us we couldn't escape the Eric Swann, Andre Wadsworth and Penny Hardaway memories.

That was just a terrible day when that news broke. I was already bummed, crushed recently after having been dumped by my ex and I remember talking to her around that time to figure out how to get some clothes back to me. She made some crack, ribbing me about the Cardinals and I said “yeesh... why don’t you just bring up Amare’s microfracture?” And even her response was “Oh... I wouldn’t do that to you.”