The Cardinals and a FRANCHISE QB

[seesred]

Dasnny White is a relative of Max Hall. It's not who you know it's what you do in the NFL once you get there. Everone loved than hated, than love Vince Young. It takes time. We have some good offensive players and will waste those years if we don't go after a kid like Kolb. We have two projects and maybe one of them, will in a few years get us to love him. Man love of course.
In the meantime get me Someone that had some proven ability in the NFL.

Our window will start closing quickly with the players we have Fits, Breaston, doucet etc.


GBR
40

 

[Duckjake]

After drafting Leinart...I'll never believe we have a franchise QB till it's shown.
Rooks are Rooks...the latest draft class to come out Bradford, McCoy and Tebow will be the best 3 QB's the NFL see's in awhile.
There isn't a franchise QB amungst the rest. They're all good players, but they can't read defenses worth a a pint, their O line gives them a month to throw the ball and they all lock onto receivers.
Franchise QB's come along less than franchise left tackles. There are very few Joe Thomas's out there....and a lot of Levi Brown's.

Leinart WAS our answer, but they didn't give him the shot he and the fans deserved.

Yell all you want about Leinart not being the answer, but he knew the system inside and out...his stats were solid and he got a lot more points than the two jokers we have now.

any new qb will have to learn the playbook and it'll take 3 years to do that...are you willing to sit back and have 3 bad years to wait for his development....no I didn't think so....you couldn't even let Leinart be a backup behind Hall and DA.

This is a doomed situation

I agree. It is really disheartening to see people talking about drafting another QBOF when we just drafted a QBOF in 2006 and let him go for nothing. Add in the long lead time required for rookies in Arizona these days and like you say we're likely in for a long stretch of bad football.

Then we have people talking about trading Fitz for some more first round picks when every other first round pick this Century is either gone or under performing.

The only immediate solution is a huge improvement in the offensive lines run blocking and pass defense and I just don't see that happening.

Sad times for Cardinal fans.

 

[desertdawg]

I agree. It is really disheartening to see people talking about drafting another QBOF when we just drafted a QBOF in 2006 and let him go for nothing. Add in the long lead time required for rookies in Arizona these days and like you say we're likely in for a long stretch of bad football.

Sad times for Cardinal fans.

I also agree, but I offered a couple QBs we should should go after. Who ya lookin at Duck?

 

[Shane]

Gimme Kolb or Vick before any draft pick. Last time we drafted a top QB prospect we sat him on the bench waited until the day before he gets his start to his career then cut him.

Completely false. Total revisionist history!

 

[BigRedMO]

They had this debate on ESPN this morning and Mike and Mike both seemed to agree if given the choice the Cards (tehy specifically talked about us) should go after Kolb. They said if Philly wants a 1 and a 3 and you have a pick in the middle of the first round where Locker or Mallett are the only options, you trade for Kolb. Golic said he'd take Kolb over Luck which I disagree with but I would take him over Mallett or Locker any day of the week.

Mike and Mike actually mentioned AZ? Wow. The Cards are like always a nonstory. I often think they have been disestablished. I know everybodies opinion about MN and Dallas down to the guy who washes the jocks.

 

[BigRedMO]

I don't think Shanahan handled it well but quite frankly for a veteran QB to be that flummoxed by a new offense is pretty startling. I've heard Dilfer talk about it several times now he says it's not a secret around the league that McNabb and Shanahan aren't getting along and that the main problem is Shanahan thinks McNabb doesn't know the offense, hasn't worked hard enough to learn the offense, and wants to do his own thing.

Shanahan has a pretty long and good history of working with NFL QB's, he is the one guy in the NFL that got Jake Plummer to play good football, he's not easy to play for he demands perfection, but the man can coach a QB.

I also think McNabb is the wrong QB for our team, he's never been an accurate thrower in the short and intermediate routes, he throws a great deep ball but he's not a guy that hits guys in stride. He's not DA bad of course but he's a vertical QB and we don't have vertical WR's.

Shanahan totally mishandled Haynesworrth. He achieved his goal by publicly humiliating him? He drove Plummer out of football by expecting him to be Elway. Now another high profile guy that Shanahan cant deal with. I think I see a pattern.

If one employee quits it may mean nothing but if several employees quit the problem may be the boss.

 

[Mulli]

Shanahan totally mishandled Haynesworrth. He achieved his goal by publicly humiliating him? He drove Plummer out of football by expecting him to be Elway. Now another high profile guy that Shanahan cant deal with. I think I see a pattern.

If one employee quits it may mean nothing but if several employees quit the problem may be the boss.

Drove Plummer out? Huh, what? He made Plummer throw picks?

 

[BigRedMO]

Drove Plummer out? Huh, what? He made Plummer throw picks?

He gave up football in his 30s. That isnt unusual for a guy who made the Pro Bowl the year before and got Den to championship game? QBs are in such short supply he couldnt play for someone? I would take him right now over Dee Anderson.

You dont seem to notice that Shanahan is in the news twice in same year for not being able to get along with a player? There are not more productive less public ways to get results?

OT - Shanahan is going to stroke out in next 5 years. Look at how red his face is. He didnt used to look like that.

 

[Mulli]

He gave up football in his 30s. That isnt unusual for a guy who made the Pro Bowl the year before and got Den to championship game? QBs are in such short supply he couldnt play for someone? I would take him right now over Dee Anderson.

You dont seem to notice that Shanahan is in the news twice in same year for not being able to get along with a player?

OT - Shanahan is going to stroke out in next 5 years. Look at how red his face is. He didnt used to look like that.

Correlation does not equal causation. Plummer has a questionable work ethic to begin with, if I recall correctly.

 

[BigRedMO]

Correlation does not equal causation. Plummer has a questionable work ethic to begin with, if I recall correctly.

In the case of Haynesworth if you found him unmanagable it will make him more managable by publicly humiliating him? Publicly humiliating him increases his trade value if you cant manage him?

 

[oaken1]

Jake retired because the Broncos traded him to Tampa,......cant blame him, at the time Tampa was really bad....not sure I would want to relocate there either.

 

[chickenhead]

I agree. It is really disheartening to see people talking about drafting another QBOF when we just drafted a QBOF in 2006 and let him go for nothing. Add in the long lead time required for rookies in Arizona these days and like you say we're likely in for a long stretch of bad football.

It is, though Leinart is going to remain an unknown most likely. I'd rather have cut him by the end of this year then extend him without him really being the answer. I guess his success (or lack of) elsewhere might give us some insight, but then many players have had success elsewhere that they didn't have with Arizona.

 

[Duckjake]

It is, though Leinart is going to remain an unknown most likely. I'd rather have cut him by the end of this year then extend him without him really being the answer. I guess his success (or lack of) elsewhere might give us some insight, but then many players have had success elsewhere that they didn't have with Arizona.

It doesn't matter what Leinart does now or why the Cards released him. He was a top 10 draft pick that didn't pan out and now we have a serious QB problem in Arizona.

 

[john h]

If the Cardinals are in position (and it looks like they will be) to take a franchise QB they MUST pull the trigger. By franchise QB I mean Luck, Mallett, or Locker. (This of course is assuming they don't pick up a big time FA in the off-season. That is not their m.o. and I don't believe they get that done.)

A team is rarely in position to take a franchise QB and must roll the dice if they are. Of the 32 teams in the NFL 17 of them start a 1st rounder and four start a QB taken no later than the early 2nd round.

Since 2000 26 QB's have been taken in the 1st round and 15 of them have been good to great. Three have been mediocre. Seven have been busts a la Leinart and one I give an incomplete grade (Tebow). Not one team that has had a chance twice in that decade at a franchise QB has completely whiffed both times. Just so you know, the guys I gave good to great grades to are: Pennington, Vick, Palmer, E. Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Young, Cutler, Ryan, Flaco, Stafford (he's been injured a lot but looks good when he's in), Sanchez, Freeman, and Bradford.

Including the three moderates (Leftwich, Grossman, and Campbell) plus the incomplete (Tebow) in with the 15 good to greats, thats 18 qb's out of 26 that the Cards would be better off with than what they have now. Plus, those odds look pretty good to me.

I am aware that the Cardinals need some other positions very badly such as OLB and O-line. In fact the O-line must be addressed via draft, trade, or free-agency along with picking a franchise QB or else it will seriously stunt his growth. The Cards offensive line gave up 93 QB hits in 2009. That's incredible considering K. Warner had one of the quickest releases in the NFL.

The bottom line is that after a terrible year, a rebuilding must occur. Why not start that rebuilding with the most important player on the field?

Agree with what you say. Kiper has two QBs in top ten picks. Luck is in #1 position. Mallet is #8. It will be a close call if we are in a position to take Mallet at #8. Clearly Luck will be taken. Yes, the QB is absolutely the most important player on a team. No team is going to the Superbowl with a mediocre QB. We need to sign the best available FA QB and take a QB with our first pick in the draft for the future. I do not know how the Cards will line up the QBs as to ability but if they draft in the top 8 they should have a good idea of who has a good chance of making it. I just hope they do not think they are smarter than all the other teams and gurus and make some way out pick. Looking at our schedule I can see where we can very easily win only one more game. We could actually lose all of them and will likely be the underdog in all of them unless lighting strikes.

 

[Duckjake]

Drove Plummer out? Huh, what? He made Plummer throw picks?

Sad that Jake Plummer is the only Cardinal to QB a win in an advancing playoff game between 1947 and 2008.

 

[desertdawg]

In the case of Haynesworth if you found him unmanagable it will make him more managable by publicly humiliating him? Publicly humiliating him increases his trade value if you cant manage him?

Didn't Haynesworth just lay down on a play live on Monday Night Football? While the other team scored a TD because of no pass rush by the Skins?
That is unmanageable. He humiliates himself.

 

[BigRedMO]

Jake retired because the Broncos traded him to Tampa,......cant blame him, at the time Tampa was really bad....not sure I would want to relocate there either.

You dont think his relationship with Shanahan might have had any impact on his decision? You dont think that maybe he had his love of football driven from him. Maybe you should read the recent interview of Plummer where he talks about Shanahan..

 

[john h]

Just because a guy is a rookie does not mean he is not ready to win now.

Look back over just the past three years. Five out of the seven QB's taken in the first round were ready to start and play well right from opening day. (Ryan, Flaco, Stafford, Sanchez, and Bradford)

Plus, the way of thinking in which you pass on a franchise QB for some immediate yet short lived success is the way teams get into this up and down constantly in need of a franchise QB problem.

Also, the Eagles probably aren't going to let Kolb go and the Cardinals are too meek to go out and do whatever they have to to get him even if they did.

The way to win in the NFL is with a FRANCHISE QB, not some other teams back-up who hasn't even played a full season.

The St Louis rookie QB sure looks like a winner to me. Look out for them next year. Did you know Peyton Manning is a FA this year? He should be given part ownership of he team. He probably already has enough money to buy the team.

 

[Russ Smith]

Shanahan totally mishandled Haynesworrth. He achieved his goal by publicly humiliating him? He drove Plummer out of football by expecting him to be Elway. Now another high profile guy that Shanahan cant deal with. I think I see a pattern.

If one employee quits it may mean nothing but if several employees quit the problem may be the boss.

Agreed on Haynesworth but Jake I totally disagree with. Shanahan's problem with Jake was, and he said it very publicly after he made Cutler the starter and Jake left, was Jake didn't work hard. He said it's nice to have a QB who actually loves the game enough to work hard, to spend hours watching film because he wants to get better not because I tell him he has to. I posted the quote here several years ago. Obviously Cutler hasn't been great but Shanahan was pretty blunt about it, I had to force Jake to work on his game.

Nobody expected Jake to be Elway, they completely tweaked the offense to give him stuff he could run, all those rollouts and stuff were designed to emphasize what Jake did well and hide what he did poorly.

Good coaches aren't easy to play with. McNabb was in one system his entire career, he apparently doesn't like Shanahan's offense. I think Shanahan should have handled it differently the public comments were out of line, but I do think he's probably right about McNabb's lack of grasp of his offense.

 

[Russ Smith]

He gave up football in his 30s. That isnt unusual for a guy who made the Pro Bowl the year before and got Den to championship game? QBs are in such short supply he couldnt play for someone? I would take him right now over Dee Anderson.

You dont seem to notice that Shanahan is in the news twice in same year for not being able to get along with a player? There are not more productive less public ways to get results?

OT - Shanahan is going to stroke out in next 5 years. Look at how red his face is. He didnt used to look like that.

He looked like that when he was an assistant in SF, when he was in Oakland, and when he was in Denver. He always looks like he's constipated and about to choke someone.

 

[Russ Smith]

You dont think his relationship with Shanahan might have had any impact on his decision? You dont think that maybe he had his love of football driven from him. Maybe you should read the recent interview of Plummer where he talks about Shanahan..

I read it and it confirmed what I always said about Jake, he didn't work hard at the game to be better and he didn't like being told to work harder.

His first year in Denver there was a big article one day about a blowup in practice. Jake had rolled out and thrown the ball up for grabs and it got intercepted. Shanahan screamed at him that he has to throw the ball away and Jake said something like "it's practice, in a game I'd throw it away." Shanahan stopped the practice and said no you wouldn't, you haven't your whole career that's why you have so many interceptions. If you don't do it here in practice you won't do it in games.

It was very clear what he was doing, he wasn't trying to kill Jake's passion he was trying to get him to understand why after six years in the NFL he was still making stupid rookie mistakes game after game, because he didn't take it seriously. He bought into all the he's better improvising stuff, he didn't think he needed to learn.

When Jake left here he admitted he'd never been to the Cards voluntary offseason workout program, he made a comment about how good Denver's was and then admitted he'd never actually been to the Cards one. He also talked about how Shanahan taught him how to watch game film, he'd never done it in Arizona.

Now go back and remember all the stuff we read about how Jake didn't get along with Marc Trestman and what an idiot Trestman was. Guess where Trestman and Shanahan learned their trade, same place.

As you said if it happens twice maybe it's not an accident. Twice Jake was coached by people who learned under Bill Walsh, and twice Jake didn't like it, maybe that's because Jake didn't want to work as hard as it was necessary to be great?

 

[Mulli]

OT It is too bad Shanahan never taught Cutler to not throw picks in the red zone.

 

[Seandonic]

It's amusing to read all these comments about how the Cards should just pick up a veteran QB and win NOW. Look, I get it. Anyone would be a little weary after the Leinart situation didn't pan out for what could be a myriad of reasons. Heck even I thought he was going to be the Cards savior back in 06.

For all you gun-shy little buckaroos out there that don't want to pick a QB again in the first round I'd like to share this info regarding just this past decade: The Jets picked Pennington in the 1st in 2000. He was good but didn't pan out due to injuries so they picked up Sanchez 9 years later...check. Atlanta picked Vick and he killed dogs so they went out and got Matt Ryan...check. Detroit picked Harrington and when he bombed they got Stafford...check. Baltimore swung and missed on Boller but that didn't stop them from taking a shot with Flaco...check.

What if all those teams had said?: (In a whining voice) I'm too scared to take a QB with a high pick again.

As far as Kolb goes I just want to ask?: How long have many of you been Cards fans to actually think they will do what is necessary, including giving up a HIGH 1st rounder and a 3rd, to get him? I wouldn't mind that scenario but the Bidwills will never allow that to happen.

The way to go about this off-season IMHO is to dump DA. Move Hall to the practice squad (so what if someone else gets him) and keep Skelton. Next, go out and sign a veteran like Bulger for insurance and then with your very high 1st round pick: GET A FRANCHISE QB!

 

[BigRedMO]

I read it and it confirmed what I always said about Jake, he didn't work hard at the game to be better and he didn't like being told to work harder.

His first year in Denver there was a big article one day about a blowup in practice. Jake had rolled out and thrown the ball up for grabs and it got intercepted. Shanahan screamed at him that he has to throw the ball away and Jake said something like "it's practice, in a game I'd throw it away." Shanahan stopped the practice and said no you wouldn't, you haven't your whole career that's why you have so many interceptions. If you don't do it here in practice you won't do it in games.

It was very clear what he was doing, he wasn't trying to kill Jake's passion he was trying to get him to understand why after six years in the NFL he was still making stupid rookie mistakes game after game, because he didn't take it seriously. He bought into all the he's better improvising stuff, he didn't think he needed to learn.

When Jake left here he admitted he'd never been to the Cards voluntary offseason workout program, he made a comment about how good Denver's was and then admitted he'd never actually been to the Cards one. He also talked about how Shanahan taught him how to watch game film, he'd never done it in Arizona.

Now go back and remember all the stuff we read about how Jake didn't get along with Marc Trestman and what an idiot Trestman was. Guess where Trestman and Shanahan learned their trade, same place.

As you said if it happens twice maybe it's not an accident. Twice Jake was coached by people who learned under Bill Walsh, and twice Jake didn't like it, maybe that's because Jake didn't want to work as hard as it was necessary to be great?

My point was meant to be about the pattern with Shanahan. I am so beyond discussing Plummer. We have disagreed on this before and we just have to agree to disagree about Plummer.

 

[BigRedMO]

He looked like that when he was an assistant in SF, when he was in Oakland, and when he was in Denver. He always looks like he's constipated and about to choke someone.

I have seen footage of him in early years in Denver and he was not that red. That is not a healthy color.