The Coaching Carosel Questions

[Diamondback Jay]

So, in a previous thread, we've established Pete Carroll, Mike Martz, Dick Vermiel, Steve Mariucci, Bob Stoops and Bobby Petrino as the candidates to look at. I'm going to dissect each here and give my assessment of who I think the Cardinal coach should be.

Martz and Vermiel are both extensions of the type of coach Denny Green is, offense first, foremost and above all else. What would be the difference between those two and who the Cards currently have?

Mariucci? He did well in San Francisco but not so good in Detroit. Not every team is suited for the West Coast Offense, do you think Arizona's one of them? That's a pretty big upheaval, and is one that I see taking at LEAST another downtrodden season to get to.

Carroll, I just can't see leaving USC.. Not for the Cardinals. Actually, the ONLY job I see him leaving USC for this post-season is the Chargers, if Schottenheimer retires/is pushed out the door which has been rumored all year. San Diego's got all the pieces in place, and is on the cusp of taking that next step in to a Super Bowl regular. Plus, he gets to STAY in Southern California.

Stoops, I just don't envision as an NFL coach. I think he's one of that long list of "good college coaches" who should be nowhere near an NFL sideline.

Petrino, I think COULD be a good NFL coach being he has the roots, but I want to see what the guy does in more pressure situations as a coach. The Big East is solid, but I'm not sure it's on the same level as even a PAC 10.

I know noone wants this, but I honestly think Arizona's best bet is Denny Green.

Yes, I know.. Everyone else wants him gone.. So stop and exhale.. And hear my logic before you condone me to a lifetime of celibacy.

Green has cleaned house since he arrived in Arizona. He has turned over a lot of the personnel on the Cards. That takes time. Even the best of them needed time to turn things around.

It took Chuck Noll six years to appear in a Super Bowl. He was 12-30 in his first 3 seasons as Steeler head coach.

Jeff Fisher was 8-14 in his first two seasons as head coach of the Oilers/Titans and then posted 3straight 8-8 records before posting a 13-3 record in 1999.

Steve Mariucci took over a good (but aging) 49er team and did well in his first two seasons and then had to purge most of the team in '99 and '00 and posted a 10-22 record in those two seasons. He got them back to winning and posted two double digit win seasons before being dumped after the '02 season.

When a coach is turning over talent on a team, it takes longer to win. I understand with this offense, the bar has been raised expectationwise. However, given the problems on the o-line and defense, I don't know how high the bar should really have been raised.

Green has taken a systematic approach to the rebuilding of the Cardinals. In 04, he added Fitz through the draft to help his QBs and Bert Berry through Free Agency to shore up the pass rush. In '05, he added Robert Griffith and Antrel Rolle to help a weak secondary. Look at the offense now in comparison to what he had when he took over.. They have two World Class WRs, a QB of the Future and an All Pro HB, who is having some obvious troubles behind a porous O-Line, which is more of a sign that this line needs something more than what they have than it is a sign of Denny Green's lack of ability to coach.

On the starting defense, only Gerald Hayes and SS Adrian Wilson were in Arizona prior to Green's arrival. Of the starting offense, only Davis, Wells, and Boldin were in Arizona prior to Green's arrival.

Green has had some mis-steps along the way -- you don't hand big contracts to a RB and QB and then use waiver wire pickups to block for them. He had the now infamous "crown their asses" blowup and he's made some questionable personnel decisions at times. Noone's going to question his clock management skills more than I am. He's definitely made as many questionable personell moves as he has good ones, but by and large this team is much better than the one he inherited.

He just needs a little more depth, another impact player on defense, and some experience for his young guys. Oh, and of course, the glaring need.. A offensive line force.

I really don't think firing Green is the answer. He has acquired players he wanted. He's turned over most of the roster and he just needs a little more time and a few more players before things start clicking. If a new coach comes in, the team will be purged again and the whole process will start over and it will be another 3 years (at least) before the Cards will be competitive.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

carousel

 

[Pariah]

Martz and Vermiel are both extensions of the type of coach Denny Green is, offense first, foremost and above all else. What would be the difference between those two and who the Cards currently have?

Here's where I stopped reading, so if you go on to explain that Vermiel and Martz are very different in their approaches, then I apologize.

But, from this statement I gather you don't know much about Vermiel and simply assume he's te same type of coach as Martz (who IS very much like Denny, other than his offensive "system" is much more definable).

Vermiel is the opposite of DG. The biggest difference is in his player relationships. He makes a genuine effort to understand what makes his players tick, and by doing so creates a powerful relationship with his players--ask any former Vermiel player, they'll tell you they'd run through a brick wall for him.

Another enourmous difference is that Vermiel is first and foremost a collaborator. He takes input from anyone who has a good idea. DG's motto is "my way or the highway" ...and if you can't make "his way" work, you're fired.

Vermiel, if he's open to the idea, is an excellent choice, IMO. You'd never get anything other than 100% from him and his players. The problem is, I don't think he wants to coach anymore.

 

[BACH]

True, Green's team has more talent than we've seen before. But is the talent due to Green or Graves/Keim? (Probably a combination)

BUT, the blame for the utter lack of preparation and adjustments can only go one place.

For me the most frustrating this abut Green is, that the solution for some improvement are fairly simply, but Green's stubbornness/"My way or the highway"-approach is hurting this team.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

There is no freakin way Bob Stoops is coming to ARZ.

Not saying I wouldn't mind, but Stoops is like royalty in OK and OU's 06' two-deep is loaded with Fr. and sophs.

Also, He's making big money for a college coach, and he doesn't want to move his kids around too much.

Maybe five or ten years from now he'll make a move, but not now.

No chance. None. Nada. Zero.

 

[Mitch]

Here's where I stopped reading, so if you go on to explain that Vermiel and Martz are very different in their approaches, then I apologize.

But, from this statement I gather you don't know much about Vermiel and simply assume he's te same type of coach as Martz (who IS very much like Denny, other than his offensive "system" is much more definable).

Vermiel is the opposite of DG. The biggest difference is in his player relationships. He makes a genuine effort to understand what makes his players tick, and by doing so creates a powerful relationship with his players--ask any former Vermiel player, they'll tell you they'd run through a brick wall for him.

Another enourmous difference is that Vermiel is first and foremost a collaborator. He takes input from anyone who has a good idea. DG's motto is "my way or the highway" ...and if you can't make "his way" work, you're fired.

Vermiel, if he's open to the idea, is an excellent choice, IMO. You'd never get anything other than 100% from him and his players. The problem is, I don't think he wants to coach anymore.

I thoroughly agree, Pariah. Excellent response. Green is hands off and Vermeil is hands on. And I would add that Vermeil's work ethic and film preparation are extraordinary...legendary, even.

If Green stays we will see more of the same...it's not a matter of time until things click. Team morale will remain a problem, as will poor preparation and illogical clock management decisions.

 

[Mitch]

There is no freakin way Bob Stoops is coming to ARZ.

Not saying I wouldn't mind, but Stoops is like royalty in OK and OU's 06' two-deep is loaded with Fr. and sophs.

Also, He's making big money for a college coach, and he doesn't want to move his kids around too much.

Maybe five or ten years from now he'll make a move, but not now.

No chance. None. Nada. Zero.

I agree, CW. Stoops wants another shot at the NCAA Championship. He can recruit with the best of them, and his league (the Big 12) has the inside track year after year at the BCS Championship game...while the SEC right now is the odd man out.

 

[Goodyear Card]

Sun Devil,

I agree with you but I don't if anyone else will. I don't think we need a new head coach and a new system. It is obvious the team has under performed but I don't think Green deserves all of the blame. Let Green finish out his contract. I would like to see Fassel as our OC. We haven't had a good OC since he left.

 

[Mitch]

SunDevilJay: Good, thoughtful and well-written post. Thank you.

While I disagree with your conclusion...I do understand your trepidation that a new coach will need 3 more years to turn things around.

However, as we have seen this year thus far in New Orleans and New York (Jets)...losers can transform into winners in one year, provided the players buy into the new coach's philosophy and feel like they have the edge they've been needing and looking for.

Just because Green came in and turned the roster upside down, doesn't mean the next coach will. In fact, with the current talent on the Cardinals' roster, a new coach here will probably hang on to the majority of the players.

Also, roster turnover is a ramification of today's draft and free agency policies. Many teams have a much different roster than what they had three years ago.

The ONE thing that needs to remain the same: good coaching. And the sooner the Cardinals get a good coach in place the sooner they will have a chance to win.

Dennis Green is not a good coach. Period.

I would actually rather have Mike Martz because at least Martz has proven he can call plays and derive offensive schemes well enough to win a Super Bowl.

That said, Martz needs to focus strictly on offense, which makes him vulnerable as a head coach.

Vermeil, on the other hand, delegates authority to his assistant coaches, but he coordinates the decision making and game planning across the board. He's a hands-on coach who puts the onus of winning strictly on his shoulders...which is why his modus operandi is to develop working relationships and streams of communication with all his coaches and players. In this respect, he is the antithesis of Dennis Green, as Pariah so aptly pointed out.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Here's where I stopped reading, so if you go on to explain that Vermiel and Martz are very different in their approaches, then I apologize.

But, from this statement I gather you don't know much about Vermiel and simply assume he's te same type of coach as Martz (who IS very much like Denny, other than his offensive "system" is much more definable).

Vermiel is the opposite of DG. The biggest difference is in his player relationships. He makes a genuine effort to understand what makes his players tick, and by doing so creates a powerful relationship with his players--ask any former Vermiel player, they'll tell you they'd run through a brick wall for him.

That is Dick Vermeil's approach in a nutshell. I DON'T think the two are similar coaches, but their offensive philosophy of build up the offense and worry about the defense later are where they are drastically similar. THAT my friend is where I drew the comparison lines. I'm assuming to come here, Vermiel is going to want full control of the team, and although that will bode extremely well for the offense as a whole and the offensive line (Vermiel's a huge proponent of building up the line, or at least he was in St. Louis and KC), it does little for the defensive side of the football. Then again, if Clancy's the defensive coach everyone says he is, then this might be not such a bad idea.

Motivation wise, none are better than Vermiel. You are dead on in your assessment that players would run through fire for him, and in that level the Cardinals would grow greatly.

Here's my big deal with Vermiel in a nutshell. Are we looking for a quick fix or are we looking for a long term solution? Granted, maybe Denny's not the latter, but realistically neither is Vermiel. If he DOES come out of retirement, I see him lasting 4 years, tops.

Another enourmous difference is that Vermiel is first and foremost a collaborator. He takes input from anyone who has a good idea. DG's motto is "my way or the highway" ...and if you can't make "his way" work, you're fired.

Understand what your saying, and don't take this as a comparison of the two, but wasn't that the big thing that made Dave McGinnis popular, his laid back, collaboration approach to things?

After Mac, this team needed someone to come in and use the crack the whip philosophy. Sorry, but when you got players admittedly dogging it because they didn't want to be here, getting someone in like Denny Green was a must have.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

SunDevilJay: Good, thoughtful and well-written post. Thank you.

While I disagree with your conclusion...I do understand your trepidation that a new coach will need 3 more years to turn things around.

However, as we have seen this year thus far in New Orleans and New York (Jets)...losers can transform into winners in one year, provided the players buy into the new coach's philosophy and feel like they have the edge they've been needing and looking for.

Mitch, I do agree that there CAN be the quick fix done in the NFL, both New York and New Orleans this year, and Miami last year proved that. In this era, it's NOT unfathomable to see a team go from 2-4 wins one year to 8-10 in the next. It's not out of the blue that this could happen here, the pieces are certainly there, just some minor tinkering here and there. Thus my arguement, and the main thing new coaches push for is a total overhaul of the coaching staff. Even the coordinators now want to bring their own people in. I dunno, after 20 years, new regime after new regime, new coaching philosophy after new coaching philosophy, I'm kind of hoping for some continuity for a change.

Just because Green came in and turned the roster upside down, doesn't mean the next coach will. In fact, with the current talent on the Cardinals' roster, a new coach here will probably hang on to the majority of the players.

Also, roster turnover is a ramification of today's draft and free agency policies. Many teams have a much different roster than what they had three years ago.

Point well taken. I really DON'T forsee whoever takes over doing massive upheaval changes (with the exception perhaps of on the offensive line, but that NEEDS blown up and rebuilt), merely some tinkering.

 

[conraddobler]

Mooch gets dismissed too fast IMO.

The reason he'd be a good fit here is that Leinart and our two WR's are made for the WC offense.

Boldin should be a yac machine with the proper route designs and Fitz is money on 3rd downs, you simply need a speedy WR deep threat that could be found in the 3rd round, I'd try to find that and trade Johnson for something.

Mooch is not a bad coach Detroit is an unmitigated disaster because of the GM plain and simple.

So I like Mooch and Vermeil has grown on me as a choice, Rivera I don't know enough about, Martz is an awful idea, he'll ruin Leinart for at least a year while he rebuilds everything he does.

Pete Carrol, not a big fan but I wouldn't throw up in my mouth, other than that I'd side with the guy pimping Cam Cameron or go with Al Saunders if he gets a strong DC.

 

[Pariah]

I'm assuming to come here, Vermiel is going to want full control of the team,

You know what they say about assuming, right?

I don't think he'd want full control. But, I don't think he'd come here because unless there was a strong GM in place.

Understand what your saying, and don't take this as a comparison of the two, but wasn't that the big thing that made Dave McGinnis popular, his laid back, collaboration approach to things?

You're confusing "collaboration" with "laid-back." The two are not the same, and don't have to be found in the same coach. Mac was both, Vermiel isn't.

After Mac, this team needed someone to come in and use the crack the whip philosophy. Sorry, but when you got players admittedly dogging it because they didn't want to be here, getting someone in like Denny Green was a must have.

Denny's NOT a good disciplinarian. A good disciplinarian will take trouble makers and make them productive players that aren't a distraction (see Tom Coughlin; see Bill Parcells). Denny's soultion to problem players/coaches is to get rid of them, despite what might be in best interest of the team.

Also, you contend that VErmiel is an offense-first guy. I'd disagree. His defense stunk in KC; I'll give you that. But his defense in St. Louis was under-rated and his defense wasn't an afterthought in Philly.

 

[sportznutt]

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=79445
NFL sources have said Bob Stoops and Jim Fassel have been looking into the Cards’ job. Pete Carroll’s name continues to crop up, as does Bears defensive coordinator Ron Rivera.



http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=79445

 

[Crimson Warrior]

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=79445
NFL sources have said Bob Stoops and Jim Fassel have been looking into the Cards’ job. Pete Carroll’s name continues to crop up, as does Bears defensive coordinator Ron Rivera.



http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=79445

Stoops just won the big XII south again. He's the king of OK with a great young nucleus of players.

Maybe five years from now he'll tire of college enough to throw the dice in the pros.

But I get the vibe that being a college coach is much more fun than the NFL, where he margin between winning and losing, even if you're a great coach, is thin.

Maybe he digs a challenge though. I dunno.