The Cost of Trading Up

[pinetopred]

I'm not on board with trading away a ton of draft capital to move up for any of these QBs. Last year a small move I up I was all for. My problem with the way we have drafted QBs or the lack of actually drafting them is we have had chances to take guys when we are on the clock and we find a reason to not draft them.

 

[Lagerfilled]

I'm not on board with trading away a ton of draft capital to move up for any of these QBs. Last year a small move I up I was all for. My problem with the way we have drafted QBs or the lack of actually drafting them is we have had chances to take guys when we are on the clock and we find a reason to not draft them.

I agree especially in light of all of the other team needs. Can we really afford to mortgage the future for a maybe? I’m also NOT seeing a vast difference in the Darnold’s/Rosen’s/Allen’s of this class and the Mayfield’s/Rudolph’s/Jackson’s/Lauletta’s. I’m just not seeing a Wentz, Luck, or Manning in any of these guys, which is why I personally wouldn’t take the gamble. Hell I’m not even seeing a Watson or Mahomes.

Ask yourself... Would you rather have Darnold (who can’t help you this year) and a bunch of later round stiffs the next 2-3 years minus Fitz OR say a Rudolph and a strong supporting cast that keeps the continuity going and probably gets you into the playoffs sooner rather than later.

Personally I opt for the later. Ideally I’d like to see us move down in the 1st round to say 21 - 25 range and grab our QB and with the extra 2nd or 3rd rounders grab - WR, CB, ILB, C, DT

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sam Darnold, the presumed #1 overall pick, is 20 years old and won't be 21 until June. He's specifically who I was referencing.

We can definitely put it off longer. We cannot afford to gut the rest of this roster for a "quarterback of the future" and expect him to transcendentally improve the play of the rest of the team, including a unit he does not play on. We are not a franchise one piece away. Our division is so difficult right now that we are not a team that is going to win now adding him to the roster, and we're absolutely going to waste his career if we cannot put weapons around him to compete.

But that’s just it, any team that is “just one player away” (which doesn’t really exist in today’s nfl) is never going to be in position to draft a franchise QB. So the very fabric of your argument faulty.

Here’s the reality, the cards are in a somewhat enviable not position from a rebuild perspective - most rebuilding teams don’t already possess a shutdown corner, an elite pass rusher, an offensive star and potentially their left tackle (although I’m dubious on DJ Humphries). Those are three (cb pass rusher and left tackle) of the most difficult and expensive slots to fill in a roster. You get a stud qb and you’ve filled the most difficult slots on a roster and then you backfill with mid level talents. That’s how you get to a Super Bowl these days.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree especially in light of all of the other team needs. Can we really afford to mortgage the future for a maybe? I’m also NOT seeing a vast difference in the Darnold’s/Rosen’s/Allen’s of this class and the Mayfield’s/Rudolph’s/Jackson’s/Lauletta’s. I’m just not seeing a Wentz, Luck, or Manning in any of these guys, which is why I personally wouldn’t take the gamble. Hell I’m not even seeing a Watson or Mahomes.

Ask yourself... Would you rather have Darnold (who can’t help you this year) and a bunch of later round stiffs the next 2-3 years minus Fitz OR say a Rudolph and a strong supporting cast that keeps the continuity going and probably gets you into the playoffs sooner rather than later.

Personally I opt for the later. Ideally I’d like to see us move down in the 1st round to say 21 - 25 range and grab our QB and with the extra 2nd or 3rd rounders grab - WR, CB, ILB, C, DT

If Darnold is materially better than Rudolph, and by all accounts he is, then I’d prefer Darnold and stiffs. Man some of you are so used to being bad because we’ve never had a decade long stud young QB that your willing to continue the Bad to mediocre trend. Baffling.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

If Darnold is materially better than Rudolph, and by all accounts he is, then I’d prefer Darnold and stiffs. Man some of you are so used to being bad because we’ve never had a decade long stud young QB that your willing to continue the Bad to mediocre trend. Baffling.

It's Keim mind control. Never draft a QB, so that when you pick up old vets your fans get crazy excited.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Rebuild both lines with young players. Get the OL to jell before getting the young QB. Get a 'star' at each level of the D---we need a dominant ILB. PP2 good for another two years. Draft someone like Vita Vea to anchor the DL for the next 10 years. . . then take a QB who will not have to 'do it all' but can flash without undue pressure.

See what happened to David Carr when he was drafted and put behind one of the worst OLs ever---guy got sacked to death and out-of-the league. Also, see how well Dak Prescott was able to perform behind a dominant OL and the addition of a superior RB.

The cowboys got lucky with Prescott. If anyone knew how reliable (and this year proved he’s not great) he’s have been drafted higher. I’m sick of the cards pinning hopes on retreads (which have an expiration date) and later picks which just don’t have the upside. In their time in the desert they’ve gambled on a first round QB exactly twice. That’s 28-29 years. Rosenbach and Leinart at the most important position. That’s not a model for sustainable success.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Good article on not over-drafting for a QB:

Excuse me for skipping ahead in this movie that's called the 2018 NFL Draft. I've seen how this story plays out, with teams disregarding their draft boards to grab quarterbacks who aren't worthy of being selected at the top. Sure, we can discuss the importance of the position and how it's a quarterback-driven league, but you'll never convince me that you should push signal-callers up the board just for the sake of landing someone who can take the snap from the center.

Now, I know this opinion diverges from those of many prominent talking heads, but based on how I was brought up in the scouting business, I believe you grade players based on their talent and potential -- regardless of position -- and rank them accordingly on the board. This is how I was taught with the Seattle Seahawks as part of a front office that included Mike Holmgren, Ted Thompson, John Schneider and Scot McCloughan -- all of whome were mentored by Ron Wolf during their time with the Green Bay Packers. (I spent parts of three seasons playing for the Packers from 1995 to '97, where I personally witnessed the philosophy play out on the field.)

Using a "BPA" (best player available) philosophy that's built on the premise of ranking and selecting the top football talents in the draft, teams shouldn't bypass good players to simply grab a prospect who fills a need. While some will take umbrage with that notion, I believe there are too many examples in previous drafts that validate my perspective.

For instance, in 2011, we watched four teams grab quarterbacks within the first 12 picks of a draft that was absolutely loaded at other positions. Cam Newton (No. 1 overall), Jake Locker (No. 8), Blaine Gabbert (No. 10) and Christian Ponder (No. 12) all flew off the board with premium picks, allowing non-QB-obsessed teams to scoop up Pro Bowl-caliber playmakers like linebacker Von Miller (No. 2), defensive tackle Marcell Dareus (No. 3), receiver A.J. Green (No. 4), cornerback Patrick Peterson (No. 5), receiver Julio Jones (No. 6), linebacker Aldon Smith (No. 7), offensive tackle Tyron Smith (No. 9) and defensive lineman J.J Watt (No. 11). That doesn't even include the likes of center Mike Pouncey (No. 15), defensive end Ryan Kerrigan (No. 16), offensive tackle Nate Solder (No. 17), defensive end Cameron Jordan (No. 24), running back Mark Ingram (No. 28), defensive end Muhammad Wilkerson (No. 30) and defensive end Cameron Hayward (No. 31).

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...-quarterbacks-plus-jpp-trade-fallout-and-more

 

[Stout]

Now you may not like the way the QB position has been addressed this off season but it has.

All the talk about 'getting your guy.' What if the guy SK identified as 'his guy' was Bradford and/or Glennon? The effort was made (via cap space and cash) to get both. SK took that route over trading away a boatload of draft picks. What if 'SK's guy' included a ranking of all the QBs available by both draft and FA and the top of the list were FA guys and that is where he went to 'get his guy?' From the outside, it looks to me that SK and Cards had Cousins as first option / Bradford / Glennon as backup and FQB. SK 'got his guys.'

Getting a vet QB (even one with a history of severe injury) has brought in Warner and Palmer. So SK has a foundation or rationale that that might work. Bradford was a #1 pick in his draft who has been on awful teams and multiple OC coordinators---when he got with Minn he had some success even behind a bad OL and no running game in 2016---we had a glimmer of what could be on a team with an improved OL and a RB in his NO game this 2018. Injured again. Big gamble by SK to bet on Bradfords knee---but no less a gamble than the Packers betting on Roger's clavicles. As to SK's 'balls' ----what do you call putting his professional career on the line on a gamble that Bradford's knee will hold up or that Glennon will come in as the backup and succeed?

I challenged those who want to trade up by surrendering multiple top draft picks to find one situation where that has worked and provided a franchise QB (not just a one season wonder). If the guy goes out by injury---such as with RGIII---it counts against the trade just as much as SK's gamble with Bradford's knee will count against him.

No response to that challenge---usually when that type of challenge gets issued, someone wants to shut me up good with their response and grind in their superior knowledge by shutting me down. I'm still waiting and would really like to find out if that has ever truly worked as a method to bring in a QB. So, instead of repeating over and over again how angry you are---how about backing up your opinion with some examples to support your case????

Edit: Joe Flacco as a possible QB---except he was not traded for multiple future top picks. All the picks used to trade for him were from the same draft. Ravens did not mortgage future drafts by taking him. Traded by Texans as 2008 1st round pick (18th overall) to Ravens for 2008 1st round pick (26th overall, Duane Brown), 2008 3rd round pick (89th overall, Steve Slaton) and 2008 6th round pick (173rd overall, Dominique Barber). That year, Cards took DRC at 16 and passed on Flacco. That trade was positive for the Ravens and Flacco has had a decent career and SB win (with a dominating D).

Yeah, that's exactly what the eff scares me. What irks me, rather than scares me, is that so many people play ostrich and defend Keim and his criminal neglect of QBs in the draft. Maybe if he had a pair and had taken a few smaller chances along the way, we wouldn't be in this crap situation. Instead he tries to outsmart everyone by pissing away our first round picks on projects.

Let's not examine the past; let's look to the future, for once. Anyone that says "well, other teams weren't successful means NO one will" is making a flawed argument. Because the player himself doesn't develop doesn't mean other players won't. Draft picks are just draft picks; beyond pressure, they have NO bearing on how a player will be.

And many of those failed QBs were on giant contracts that were cost-prohibitive to their teams, meaning precious cap space to build the team wasn't as available. That's no longer the case today. Look, I'd hate to give up a bunch of draft capital, but Keim has put us in a crap situation, and we'll have to get creative to get out of it.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of the "we'll get our QBOF NEXT year", and I'm sick and tired of just trying to get by at the position. If THIS is Keim getting "aggressive", the team should be aggressive and fire his ass.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Yeah, that's exactly what the eff scares me. What irks me, rather than scares me, is that so many people play ostrich and defend Keim and his criminal neglect of QBs in the draft. Maybe if he had a pair and had taken a few smaller chances along the way, we wouldn't be in this crap situation. Instead he tries to outsmart everyone by pissing away our first round picks on projects.

Let's not examine the past; let's look to the future, for once. Anyone that says "well, other teams weren't successful means NO one will" is making a flawed argument. Because the player himself doesn't develop doesn't mean other players won't. Draft picks are just draft picks; beyond pressure, they have NO bearing on how a player will be.

And many of those failed QBs were on giant contracts that were cost-prohibitive to their teams, meaning precious cap space to build the team wasn't as available. That's no longer the case today. Look, I'd hate to give up a bunch of draft capital, but Keim has put us in a crap situation, and we'll have to get creative to get out of it.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of the "we'll get our QBOF NEXT year", and I'm sick and tired of just trying to get by at the position. If THIS is Keim getting "aggressive", the team should be aggressive and fire his ass.

And they did not identify their guy as Bradford, but Cousins which I would not have appreciated because he is no franchise stud and would have put off attempting to get a young QB while having another vet QB which is slightly younger but not up to Palmer when we got him considering his tenure in Cincy before he became a Raider. Could we just draft our damn young QB already... and for all those who are scardy cats (including Keim if he is gun shy), then you have no freaking clue how to build a winning franchise or should have a job in this profession, I know I am not qualified to select the young guy but I sure the hell know you need one and would be willing to act

 

[CardNots]

I have a strong feeling that if Michael was in charge and even Keim when we had Plummer, it would have been a much different story with the player exodus that the old man allowed following the playoff run

It had been stated the old man upon the playoff win over Dallas, he said something like oh great now everybody will want more money. Basically the defense was ransacked because of flat ass cheapness. Back in those days the team was the main source of revenue for the Bidwill family.

I understand your statement but the financial situation would have been the same as with his father therefore the outcome would have had little difference at that time. The deal of the stadium and surrounding ventures changed the outlook of this team and nothing else.

I’m really interested in how much influence BA had over Keim as it relates to draft strategy.

 

[Lagerfilled]

If Darnold is materially better than Rudolph, and by all accounts he is, then I’d prefer Darnold and stiffs. Man some of you are so used to being bad because we’ve never had a decade long stud young QB that your willing to continue the Bad to mediocre trend. Baffling.

This is where we disagree. How do you know that Darnold et al are appreciably better than Rudolph? Will Darnold and all those missing draft picks garner better results than Rudolph? Didn’t elevate USC to an NCAA title.

Darnold’s 2 Years:
64.9%. 7229yds. 8.5ypa 57td / 22int
Record 21-6

Rudolph 3+ Years:
63.2% 13618yds. 9.4yoa 92td / 26int
Record 30-9 (not counting 2014; only played in 3 games)

Based on the facts and not some arbitrary scouting grade, I don’t see much of a difference. And oh btw, Rudolph has shown to be a smart, tough, team leader that eats, sleeps, and breathes football. If that’s being “bad,” then I’ll take that everyday and at 1 or 2pm on Sunday’s.

 

[Jetstream Green]

It had been stated the old man upon the playoff win over Dallas, he said something like oh great now everybody will want more money. Basically the defense was ransacked because of flat ass cheapness. Back in those days the team was the main source of revenue for the Bidwill family.

I understand your statement but the financial situation would have been the same as with his father therefore the outcome would have had little difference at that time. The deal of the stadium and surrounding ventures changed the outlook of this team and nothing else.

I’m really interested in how much influence BA had over Keim as it relates to draft strategy.

I find it very very very hard to believe that the Cardinal franchise was the main source of revenue for the Bidwill family. Unless, you are one of the selected few as Dallas, a majority are just breaking even in relation to the major business which provided them to buy the franchise in the first place. Owning a professional football team is a hobby, like golf on a bigger scale, for the elite rich and not what keeps them afloat financially

 

[GimmedaBall]

Name the franchise that went from a #15 (or below) up to #4 or higher and paid the price of several #1, #2, etc draft picks over several drafts to complete the trade who then got a winning team out of the deal?

 

[Jetstream Green]

This is where we disagree. How do you know that Darnold et al are appreciably better than Rudolph? Will Darnold and all those missing draft picks garner better results than Rudolph? Didn’t elevate USC to an NCAA title.

Darnold’s 2 Years:
64.9%. 7229yds. 8.5ypa 57td / 22int
Record 21-6

Rudolph 3+ Years:
63.2% 13618yds. 9.4yoa 92td / 26int
Record 30-9 (not counting 2014; only played in 3 games)

Based on the facts and not some arbitrary scouting grade, I don’t see much of a difference. And oh btw, Rudolph has shown to be a smart, tough, team leader that eats, sleeps, and breathes football. If that’s being “bad,” then I’ll take that everyday and at 1 or 2pm on Sunday’s.

Wrong, there is nothing arbitrary about a franchise's scouting grade. They know what to look for in a quarterback and grade various aspects accordingly. Even the freaking Browns scouting staff would make us all look like morons when discussing a quarterback's attributes and what they see, we tend to be the arbitrary guys on this forum. It seems a majority of this forum, since we are not privy to the wealth of knowledge people in the league have and their credentials, base our opinions off of stats which lack variables out the ass for definite statements. I am not saying you hype on that Lager but the use of stats on this forum has become complete lunacy. For example, unless Rudolph was able to play the same offense, look across his line of scrimmage and have the same teammates, the same coach, in the same conference, basically play at USC... tell me how his stats have a meaningful comparison to why he is just as good as Darnold, they do not

 

[GimmedaBall]

I find it very very very hard to believe that the Cardinal franchise was the main source of revenue for the Bidwill family. Unless, you are one of the selected few as Dallas, a majority are just breaking even in relation to the major business which provided them to buy the franchise in the first place. Owning a professional football team is a hobby, like golf on a bigger scale, for the elite rich and not what keeps them afloat financially

Cards were indeed the single income source for Mr. B for many years. Not a hobby but the sole income. Cards had their origin as one of the original pro-league football teams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Chicago_Cardinals

St. Louis Cards could never muster the private funds to get their own stadium up-and-running and had to share with the baseball Cardinals. Lack of a football stadium---and the money that pours in from everything associated with a home facility---is what prompted the Cards to abandon St. Louis for Phoenix. And it took another threat to move before we got the Toaster.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Yeah, that's exactly what the eff scares me. What irks me, rather than scares me, is that so many people play ostrich and defend Keim and his criminal neglect of QBs in the draft. Maybe if he had a pair and had taken a few smaller chances along the way, we wouldn't be in this crap situation. Instead he tries to outsmart everyone by pissing away our first round picks on projects.

Let's not examine the past; let's look to the future, for once. Anyone that says "well, other teams weren't successful means NO one will" is making a flawed argument. Because the player himself doesn't develop doesn't mean other players won't. Draft picks are just draft picks; beyond pressure, they have NO bearing on how a player will be.

And many of those failed QBs were on giant contracts that were cost-prohibitive to their teams, meaning precious cap space to build the team wasn't as available. That's no longer the case today. Look, I'd hate to give up a bunch of draft capital, but Keim has put us in a crap situation, and we'll have to get creative to get out of it.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of the "we'll get our QBOF NEXT year", and I'm sick and tired of just trying to get by at the position. If THIS is Keim getting "aggressive", the team should be aggressive and fire his ass.

Not playing ostrich. Just looked at the QB talent coming out this year and don't see anyone that warrants draft pick bankruptcy. Just watched the Allen Pro-day on NFL Live---hard pressed to see any difference between his play/stats/performance over our guy John Skelton.

Drafts are seldom more than 1 or at most 2 deep in QB talent---we are looking to trade up for the 4th-5th guy? Really? That is your aggressive solution?

Sorry that you are SICK AND TIRED. Trading the farm is not going to solve that. You'll end up sick and tired of having no draft picks when the average QB you traded for falls flat.

Both SW and SK got 4 year deals on their contracts. MB has given both time to rebuild (or reload if you prefer) within that time frame. Get some vitamins and iron supplements because you are most likely in for more SICK AND TIRED time.

 

[Solar7]

Not playing ostrich. Just looked at the QB talent coming out this year and don't see anyone that warrants draft pick bankruptcy. Just watched the Allen Pro-day on NFL Live---hard pressed to see any difference between his play/stats/performance over our guy John Skelton.

Drafts are seldom more than 1 or at most 2 deep in QB talent---we are looking to trade up for the 4th-5th guy? Really? That is your aggressive solution?

Sorry that you are SICK AND TIRED. Trading the farm is not going to solve that. You'll end up sick and tired of having no draft picks when the average QB you traded for falls flat.

Both SW and SK got 4 year deals on their contracts. MB has given both time to rebuild (or reload if you prefer) within that time frame. Get some vitamins and iron supplements because you are most likely in for more SICK AND TIRED time.

Completely agreed.

 

[GimmedaBall]

Taking the big leap actually worked here:

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[Solar7]

That’s a fair assessment. That is one way to look at it. You could also argue, though, that those teams and their fanbase are probably satisfied with the moves. What more do you want than hope and excitement? I know the jury is still out with those quarterbacks, but both of us know that in todays NFL, no one on this board, no one from the entire fanbase and probably none of the coaches or front office guys are going to give a quarterback three years free pass. It’s about results right now. Those teams got their guy.

- The Rams found their game manager with Jared Goff. He doesn’t need to do more than what he did last season.

- The Eagles found a quarterback who had probably been the offensive player of the year had he not gotten injured. He took the team to the playoff, and there was absolutely no reason to believe that he would suddenly struggle in the playoffs.

- The Chiefs found a quarterback that was blowing the draft community away leading up to the draft, and who they traded their successful veteran quarterback away to make room for.

- The Texans found a quarterback that is more than good enough to complement their potentially dominant defense.

- Mitch Trubisky stabilized the Bears’ offense. I have a good friend who is a huge Bears-fan. He told me that their fanbase is boiling over with excitement.

You don’t really think those organizations and fanbases where more happy and thrilled with their previous starting quarterbacks, including Brock Osweiler, Tom Savage, Matt Barkley, Brian Hoyer and the bad version of Case Keenum, do you?

Look, we all want the generational talent that can lead the Cardinals to multiple Super Bowls and be the offensive player of the year every season. The more realistic scenario, though, is to get hope and belief installed in the fanbase, and as a fan, that’s really all I am asking for. I didn’t like the years with John Skelton, Ryan Lindley, Kevin Kolb, Max Hall and all the others, and a huge part of that was that I did not for one second believe that the team could challenge any other teams in the long run. I have always been advocating for not trading up, and actually I have usually much rather wanted to trade down to stockpile more picks. This time, though, they don’t have Kurt Warner or Carson Palmer. I want the quarterback that can make me believe, and I am willing to take risks to get him.



I'll admit that I am probably getting distracted by being a fan that wants to be believe my team can win, also in the long run. Yes, I might get dissapointed, but at least I got to feel excited.

-Goff definitely needs to do more than he did last season if they are going to win a Super Bowl. He needs to throw for 4,000 yards. He needs to be responsible for playcalling at the line, not Sean McVay. He needs to prove he can take over a game. He's the #1 overall pick, he needs to better than "game manager." If we trade away three years of picks, we sure as hell better be getting more than a competent "game manager" whose flaws are hidden by DJ.

- Plenty of amazing QBs have been flops in the playoffs. Peyton Manning was derided for not winning the big one and not being able to get over the hump. Aaron Rodgers couldn't do it for a long time. Drew Brees only has one Super Bowl to his name. Same with Elway, Marino, Kelly, Moon, Cunningham, Fouts. Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Philip Rivers, Andrew Luck. Wentz is a second year player. Let's not imagine the spotlight may potentially have been too big for him, when some of these Hall of Fame QBs couldn't do it.

- The Chiefs have reason to be excited, and they made a smart move when the time was right, without giving up too much. They have an awesome roster and aren't too much worse off for not having next year's pick. But there was never a doubt that roster was talented enough to not be bottom-5. We're not so lucky.

- The Texans are in a bad spot. Their defensive stars are struggling with age and injury. Watson's on a second ACL tear and is in really bad shape. He had 6 great fantasy football games, but only a 3-3 record, and we'll see if he comes back. I can't tell you that I think they're better off with Watson than say, Ryan Ramczyk or Dalvin Cook and the #4 overall pick this year.

-Trubisky... fine, whatever, be excited, but he didn't do much, and they only moved up one pick. They didn't sell the farm like we're planning on doing.

I don't think their fanbases are thrilled, but if Goff takes 4 years and doesn't win a playoff game, then comes up for a $30 million per year extension, how happy will they be? If Wentz takes a full year to recover and creates a Foles-Wentz controversy in Philly, how happy will they be? If Mahomes comes out and throws 25 TDs but 20 INTs and the Chiefs falter like they have the past few years, how happy will they be? If Watson never returns to form and Saquon Barkley is the league's best RB, how happy will they be?

The QB cannot fix the rest of your roster. Look at the Chargers. Look at the Lions. No one would argue with you that those teams have quarterbacks most teams dream of. Unfortunately, they're on the outside looking in almost every year. That's not exciting.

 

[GimmedaBall]

The Texans may be looking at a QB this year as well after the 2nd ACL by Watson. They were looking at LJackson---probably hoping that he may drop down to them. They need a backup---and maybe a starter.

Bears moved up ONE spot to get Trub. Here's the price: Traded • 2017 first round pick (#3-Solomon Thomas) • 2017 third round pick (#67-Alvin Kamara) • 2017 fourth round pick (#111-Tedric Thompson) • 2018 third round pick (?-?) to 49ers for • 2017 first round pick (#2-Mitchell Trubisky) on 2017-04-27. That may not be trading the farm but it selling off the lower 40 acres and the milk cow---for One spot.

 

[Gandhi]

-Goff definitely needs to do more than he did last season if they are going to win a Super Bowl. He needs to throw for 4,000 yards. He needs to be responsible for playcalling at the line, not Sean McVay. He needs to prove he can take over a game. He's the #1 overall pick, he needs to better than "game manager." If we trade away three years of picks, we sure as hell better be getting more than a competent "game manager" whose flaws are hidden by DJ.

No, he doesn’t have to do more. They will obviously want him to, and they might even expect him to, but no, he doesn’t have to for them to be a serious contender.

- Plenty of amazing QBs have been flops in the playoffs. Peyton Manning was derided for not winning the big one and not being able to get over the hump. Aaron Rodgers couldn't do it for a long time. Drew Brees only has one Super Bowl to his name. Same with Elway, Marino, Kelly, Moon, Cunningham, Fouts. Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Philip Rivers, Andrew Luck. Wentz is a second year player. Let's not imagine the spotlight may potentially have been too big for him, when some of these Hall of Fame QBs couldn't do it.

We all know that history, and that’s all fine. I just think there is a major difference between knowing that someone might struggle in the playoff based on their individual history and then to expecting someone to struggle in the playoffs. Like I said, I don’t think there was any reason to believe that Wentz would struggle.

- The Chiefs have reason to be excited, and they made a smart move when the time was right, without giving up too much. They have an awesome roster and aren't too much worse off for not having next year's pick. But there was never a doubt that roster was talented enough to not be bottom-5. We're not so lucky.

Oh, there is always doubt. Basically every season you will see teams with huge expectations crumble to one of the worst teams in the league. That said, trying to predict the future, like you just did, will obviously keep you from taking risks exactly because there will always be doubts.

- The Texans are in a bad spot. Their defensive stars are struggling with age and injury. Watson's on a second ACL tear and is in really bad shape. He had 6 great fantasy football games, but only a 3-3 record, and we'll see if he comes back. I can't tell you that I think they're better off with Watson than say, Ryan Ramczyk or Dalvin Cook and the #4 overall pick this year.

I don’t play fantasy football so I don’t know that, but I can tell you that he had six inspiring games that gave that fanbase hope and expectations for the future. Sure they are nervous, but it’s not even remotely farfetched that they have reason for optimism.

-Trubisky... fine, whatever, be excited, but he didn't do much, and they only moved up one pick. They didn't sell the farm like we're planning on doing.

I guess it depends on the definition of selling the farm. I don’t think giving up, for example, three first round picks are selling the farm. Giving up multiple picks in the same draft would be selling the farm.

We can probably keep arguing if drafting quarterbacks have given those fanbases excitement, and I think it depends on the perspective you look at it from. Maybe that’s the real difference in opinions between us? That there simply are not a prospect that would get you excited as a Cardinals fan? If so, I completely understand that you don’t want to trade up. If they drafted a certain prospect only for the sake of showing that they could, that would obviously be an inexcusable scandal.

I don't think their fanbases are thrilled, but if Goff takes 4 years and doesn't win a playoff game, then comes up for a $30 million per year extension, how happy will they be? If Wentz takes a full year to recover and creates a Foles-Wentz controversy in Philly, how happy will they be? If Mahomes comes out and throws 25 TDs but 20 INTs and the Chiefs falter like they have the past few years, how happy will they be? If Watson never returns to form and Saquon Barkley is the league's best RB, how happy will they be?

If, if, if. The problem is that you can always say that, and you can always argue why a certain quarterback might become a problem. I think that being afraid of failure will hold you back, and that also goes for the development of a team. If you don’t think there is a quarterback worth trading up for, then I would have absolutely no problem with it. Being afraid to pay the prize because of what might happen is an entirely different matter, in my opinion.

The QB cannot fix the rest of your roster. Look at the Chargers. Look at the Lions. No one would argue with you that those teams have quarterbacks most teams dream of. Unfortunately, they're on the outside looking in almost every year. That's not exciting.

Well, I would like to have Matthew Stafford or Philip Rivers on the Cardinals’ roster right now, even though I know what they have accomplished with their teams, but that’s just me.

 

[oaken1]

It's a prerequisite for blowing off your best way to acquire elite talent for the next few years. Your QB better be good enough to completely make the rest of the team better, enough that you're going to abandon growing parts of the rest of the team. If we traded up to get our QB of the future and he didn't take us to the playoffs before we owed him an extension, he probably wouldn't be worth it, right?

This all depends on how much you think the QB can completely transform the team. Considering there isn't a consensus #1 yet, it's one hell of a gamble. Winston and Mariota haven't been able to do it for their teams yet.


Trust me, I was stumping for moving up for a QB last year. I think the "wait, next year's QBs will be better" argument is terrible. You have to take risks.

But risks need to be calculated and have some kind of a parachute built in. If "whatever it takes to go get him" means we trash the franchise, is it going to be worth it to you so you can say "at least we tried?"

QB desperate teams don't just move away from franchise, all-time players. This team will be stuck trying to make whoever we picked at #1 work for at least three years, with no other players to show for it. It's one thing to whiff if you're in the top 5 and he sucks. It's a completely different thing to whiff when you discarded your future.

"elite" talent... yeah... only four positions on an NFL team do you need "Elite" talent. Cornerback,... pass rusher,... left tackle,...and quarterback.(even corner is debatable if you have a strong pass rush)

we already have the "elite" guys on defense.... Keim thinks he has him at LT...so all that leaves us is QB.. if those positions are filled the rest can all be journeymen...average players.

because of those guys we have Keim is not going to draft an elite edge rusher, an elite corner, or an elite left tackle... its a wasted pick because in a few years you have to pay them and we cannot afford to pay two of them. He may do so in a few years, when PP21 is creeping towards decline... but not now.... Pending how DJHump pans out this season we may well draft another LT before we draft a top corner or edge rusher... this is basically his contract year since if he doesnt play well we will need to draft his replacement before we are due to sign him to a fat contract(I realize he has two years left but I dont think they will wait until his final year to draft a guy if Hump isnt panning out)

it is fairly common for guards, centers and RT's to come out of the later rounds and be developed into good players... this years most coveted, andrew Norwell, was a fourth round guy.

we continually do the "wait till next year" thing. But unfortunately next year the QB prospects kinda suck.... there is maybe one who can be seen as a top 10 pick... which means he will likely go #1 overall.

Dont worry though. Keim is prepping us for a third round "steal" thats gonna take the league by storm

 

[GimmedaBall]

Oaken1, You came out early for Darnold. Do you still see him as the QB you like?

If so, what would you offer the Browns to move to pick #1 to select him in this draft?

 

[pinetopred]

I have one question for every one saying let's sell the farm to get one of these QBs. Which team in the top 5 are you expecting to take the offer to drop to 15 this year. I just don't see any of them wanting out of the top 10 picks. If I was a GM in the top 5 I'd be asking for our 1st and 2nd this year our 1st next year a proven younger starter (Golden/ DJohnson ) a 3rd this year and a 3rd next year,,. JMO If a QB slides and we like him forsure go get him around 10 we aren't killing our future for an unknown. But just saying we should do it you still need some team willing to trade out and I'm not seeing it

 

[oaken1]

Oaken1, You came out early for Darnold. Do you still see him as the QB you like?

If so, what would you offer the Browns to move to pick #1 to select him in this draft?

depends... if it is just picks??

first and third 2018, 2019, 2020

thats to swap obviously so we would be losing two additional first and three thirds...