The Decline and Fall of Amare

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AzStevenCal

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Well since 2007-2008 (the year Gasol was traded to the Lakers) the Suns have played 10 games vs the Lakers. In those 10 Amare has averaged 20.2 points and 8.3 rebounds. This whole idea is completely stupid. Do you have any actual source on this or is it all made up? If there is a shred of truth to this then the Heat will be completely screwed. Remember Joe Smith and the Timberwolves? They lost a ton of picks, some $3 million fine, and McHale was suspended for a year if I remember correctly. How about people not get so riled up after 1 game. Let's see what tomorrow brings us.

No, I do not have any source on this. It's pure conjecture on my part and I've stated that several times. But why bring up the Amare vs Lakers history? Have we been playing the Lakers for the 13 game stretch that has seen Amare's average drop 6 points and 3 rebounds per game? And again, the TWolves incident involved a signed contract. Nobody would likely be that foolish again.

Steve
 

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Griffin

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Although my memory about the wording is not 100%, Bruce Cooper said on channel 12 local news Sunday something to the effect, Sarver said the Suns may not be able to keep Amare.
That's interesting, because just the other day Kerr said that the Suns will be able to afford to re-sign Amare. So if the Suns can afford to pay Amare the max, why would they not be able to re-sign him? (Assuming Amare prefers to stay). I wonder how Sarver would spin that.

Anyway, this may be a moot point, because if Amare continues to play like he did in game 1 and we lose to the Lakers, perhaps re-signing him may not be the most desirable option.
 

Mainstreet

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That's interesting, because just the other day Kerr said that the Suns will be able to afford to re-sign Amare. So if the Suns can afford to pay Amare the max, why would they not be able to re-sign him? (Assuming Amare prefers to stay). I wonder how Sarver would spin that.

Anyway, this may be a moot point, because if Amare continues to play like he did in game 1 and we lose to the Lakers, perhaps re-signing him may not be the most desirable option.

The key word may be "afford." The Suns could afford JJ but they could not keep him.
 

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No, I do not have any source on this. It's pure conjecture on my part and I've stated that several times. But why bring up the Amare vs Lakers history? Have we been playing the Lakers for the 13 game stretch that has seen Amare's average drop 6 points and 3 rebounds per game? And again, the TWolves incident involved a signed contract. Nobody would likely be that foolish again.

Steve

So the Spurs series where Amare went 21 and 9 doesn't count. This is stupid to bring up. If there is no truth to this then why even bring it up? Amare averaged 23 and 9 this season it's not like he is playing at a crappy level. It seems like you have a grudge or just plain don't like Amare and that is fine, it is not a reason to get people riled up because of some crazy conspiracy theory.
 

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"I'm not giving him no hype right now; he had a lucky game in Game 1," Stoudemire said after Suns practice Tuesday at Staples Center. "We just got to make sure we box him out. I think I focused so much on [Pau] Gasol and [Andrew] Bynum to where he snuck in there and got 19 boards, so now we just got to make sure there's three guys out there that can rebound well [when] adding Odom. So, we got to do a better job on them."

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5199267
 

jagu

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Amare is an effing joke, he should shut his mouth and admit he got schooled by Odom.
 
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AzStevenCal

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So the Spurs series where Amare went 21 and 9 doesn't count. This is stupid to bring up. If there is no truth to this then why even bring it up? Amare averaged 23 and 9 this season it's not like he is playing at a crappy level.

I don't have a grudge against Amare. I'm grateful for all the great moments he's given this franchise but I'm frankly bewildered and searching for answers given his play of late. His stats are down and for me, he fails the eye test also.

I'll give the numbers once more. For the past 13 games he's averaged 21 points and 7 rebounds. For the 13 prior games he averaged 27 points and 10 rebounds. Now guess what his last three postseason averages were - 26 points and 10 rebounds (from 06, 07 and 08). If you're satisfied that such a significant drop from the second half of the season or from previous postseasons is due to superior competition then I'm sure you're happy with his effort. For myself, I have doubts.

It seems like you have a grudge or just plain don't like Amare and that is fine, it is not a reason to get people riled up because of some crazy conspiracy theory.

I guess I could apologize for riling people up. I mean, what was I doing offering an opinion for all the world to see. For shame. In case you didn't see it, I gave my hand a good slap.

Steve
 

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LOL, Amare is definitely not the brightest crayon in the box. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. It doesn't take a genius to know it is highly unlikely Odom is going to get 19 reb again. He just need to learn how to channel all his blabbing to the hardwood.
 

azsportsfan01

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I'll give the numbers once more. For the past 13 games he's averaged 21 points and 7 rebounds. For the 13 prior games he averaged 27 points and 10 rebounds. Now guess what his last three postseason averages were - 26 points and 10 rebounds (from 06, 07 and 08). If you're satisfied that such a significant drop from the second half of the season or from previous postseasons is due to superior competition then I'm sure you're happy with his effort. For myself, I have doubts.

You keep quoting these numbers yet your forgetting a very big number. The last 13 games he has played the teams have averaged a record of 51-31 while the previous 13 were against teams with an average record of 35-47. That is a huge gap in talent. Numbers mean only so much when you look at the context in which they were put up.
 
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AzStevenCal

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You keep quoting these numbers yet your forgetting a very big number. The last 13 games he has played the teams have averaged a record of 51-31 while the previous 13 were against teams with an average record of 35-47. That is a huge gap in talent. Numbers mean only so much when you look at the context in which they were put up.

In the past, Amare has stepped it up in the playoffs. Facing stiffer competition is a fairly common occurrence in the playoffs but this is easily his worst postseason since his rookie playoff appearance. Considering how much he supposedly has improved that's a surprise to me. Also, he just doesn't seem to be as active out there as he used to be. I may have drawn the wrong conclusion but I really believe something is wrong.

Steve
 

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On a related note, Amare is a tool-

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/BobYoung/83645

He didn't say that, did he? A report from The Day After.

Oh yes he did, and there is little doubt the Lakers and their fans will be talking about it.

Suns forward Amar'e Stoudemire told reporters before the club's Tuesday practice that Lakers forward Lamar Odom had a "lucky game" in the 128-107 beat down the Lakers put on the Suns in Game 1 of the Western Conference Finals Monday night at the Staples Center.


If only he would put as much effort into rebounding and playing D as he does into talking. :bang:

Next, Amare is going to tell us that the Suns "beat themselves".
 

elindholm

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"I think I focused so much on [Pau] Gasol and [Andrew] Bynum to where he snuck in there and got 19 boards"

LOL! Odom was easy to ignore as he got his first 19 rebounds, but after that, he had the Suns' attention. That's why he didn't get to 20. I mean, come on, anyone can get to 19. You just sneak in there.

That's why Stoudemire was held to 3 rebounds, because the Lakers weren't letting him sneak around. Otherwise, he would have had 19 too, easy.
 

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Steve, I agree with you that Amare's play has recently declined, but not to the extent that warrants a tampering conspiracy.

My logic: Amare before the 2010 playoffs always KNEW he was the #1 option on offense. You can see it in his body language. Even before Nash crosses mid-court, Amare is waiting in the wings ready to set a pick. The bread and butter play would sometimes allow Amare to reel off 10-20 pts consecutively for the Suns (a la LBJ in the detroit series). We had wing players in Bell and Marion but they were hardly reliable. Thus, Amare fed off the notion that he was the go-to-guy.

Fast forward to the 2010 playoffs. We have a TON more options: Frye and Dudley on the corners. J Rich driving to the hoop. Even when Amare is in with Barbosa and Dragic, you rarely see the pick and roll because we are spreading the floor to try to either get an open 3 or penetrate and draw a foul. The emergence of our bench coupled with the play of Hill and J Rich allows Amare to become less of a DEFINITE #1 option and more of a "well-if-the-open-shot-isn't-available-let's-run-the-pnr-with-10-sec-left" option. Once again, you can see it in his body language. If he doesn't get going early, he starts playing really lazy and lacksadaisical. It even borders indifference.

It's really worrisome that a potential MAX player can become indifferent in the WCF, perhaps the best chance he's had at going to the finals in his 8 years here. A MAX player like Kobe or KG will will his team to a victory - diving for loose balls, yelling at teammates, doing whatever it takes.

If Amare wants to be the superstar that he thinks he is, he needs more passion on the court and instill it in his teammates.
 

Arizona's Finest

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Amare will end up in Miami. But thats not a conspiracy theory.

Thats common sense.
 
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AzStevenCal

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Amare will end up in Miami. But thats not a conspiracy theory.

Thats common sense.

The biggest difference between what you've said and what I'm saying is that Amare also knows it. But, regardless, I agree there are good reasons to expect he'll land in Miami. Maybe we'll get lucky and it will be as part of a sign and trade deal rather than a complete loss.

Steve
 

Covert Rain

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Actually, unless you really intend to call me a liar there is every reason not to assume I'm talking about last night because I have said repeatedly that I'm not talking about last night.

I think you missed the point. I was being sarcastic because your point completely differs from what I have seen.


So it's your contention that this year each of our 3 playoff opponents has decided to focus on Amare and in year's past they let him have his way? The Amare I watched was sporadic in his effort, occasionally boxing out and occasionally playing defense and occasionally making a force of himself on offense. Think Randy Moss. The Amare of a month ago was Jerry Rice.

It's my contention that this is arguably this biggest front line if not the best that Amare has faced in the playoffs. Do you know of another team who had 3 guys around 7 feet that Amare had to contend with? That's called a match-up issue...not an effort one.


It's hard to believe that so many are bringing up this argument when so many here apparently believe all kinds of NBA related conspiracies. Again, I'm not suggesting there is a signed deal in place, merely a loose agreement. A lot of things happen backchannel, why is this so difficult to imagine? I don't have a problem if someone finds my speculation absurd but I don't understand the "it couldn't possibly happen" crowd.

Do you realize how absurd this sounds? Loose agreement? You have no proof, no rumor, no inside information. Nothing. You might as well say the Suns have a sign and trade "loose agreement" in place to bring Lebron here.


Pat has a lot of PR "egg on his face" problems already from having previously thrown a head coach under the bus. Why would he voluntarily do so again unless he was laying the ground work for something. If he had no previous knowledge of an FA interest in him as a coach then the worst thing he could do would be to broach this subject unnecessarily. I may well have drawn the wrong inference but I smell a rat, one way or the other.

I smell a team desperate to get another big free agent in so they can tell their own impending free agent they are doing the right things to contend. If Wade doesn't feel they are doing enough..he walks. Enticing a free agent to sign by saying you "might" coach again is not only logical but smart IMO.

Riley is still one of the most respected coaching figures in all basketball. Players in this league would love to play for him.

And here is our biggest difference. I don't see him putting all his effort into anything. I've seen him lose focus like this before, even for prolonged stretches but not in the playoffs. I have not been satisfied with his intensity in any of these postseason games. Apparently, you have. And again, apparently, many of you see no problem with him averaging 21 points and 7 rebounds over the past 13 games.

Do you even realize how many PF's in the NBA have averaged over 20 points in their careers in the playoffs? Again, Amare's problem has been lack of focus and stupid play at times. However, I have never walked away from a post season feeling like Amare was slacking off, unmotivated or lacking effort. I have criticized Amare over and over for the things mentioned above. I don't see a guy jogging down court. I don't see a guy trying not to score. I don't see a guy not trying to box out. I don't see a guy not trying to put a body on other players. When I see that...then I will agree with you.

I heard the rest of the Amare interview today. He not only called Odom out but says it won't happen again. You do realize that Amare just said..if he does it again it's on me? That doesn't sound like someone unmotivated or lacking effort. Players that are unmotivated or lacking effort don't call out another player in the national media if they are dogging it. Not unless you think Amare is trying to set a new trend?
 
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Superbone

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The biggest difference between what you've said and what I'm saying is that Amare also knows it. But, regardless, I agree there are good reasons to expect he'll land in Miami. Maybe we'll get lucky and it will be as part of a sign and trade deal rather than a complete loss.

Steve

Plus a little thing called tampering.
 
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AzStevenCal

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However, I have never walked away from a post season feeling like Amare was slacking off, unmotivated or lacking effort.

I decided to ignore most of what you said because it mostly ignores what I said but this I'll discuss. This is the first post season that I've felt this way about Amare. As a matter of fact, I started noticing a difference in his play at the end of the regular season.

He's not laying down, he's not disinterested, he's not horrible, he's just not the Amare I'm used to. 6 fewer points per game and 3 fewer rebounds per game this postseason compared to his 3 previous postseasons (there's been a noticeable drop in other areas also such as blocks and steals). Explain that. I can't, and so I began looking for possible reasons. I can't rule out injury, illness or exhaustion but I believe my purely speculative offering is also in the realm of the possible.

He may well flip a switch and begin playing consistently like the Amare of previous playoffs but even that won't dissuade me from my precarious perch. In fact, it might well convince me further as it will likely remove the injury or exhaustion explanation.

And I see no reason to discount the possibility that Amare's agent or representative has had unofficial conversations with Pat's agent or representative and that an unofficial meeting of the minds has occurred. It's my understanding that this kind of thing happens fairly regularly in pro sports.

Steve
 

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