The Decline and Fall of Amare

[Covert Rain]

And I see no reason to discount the possibility that Amare's agent or representative has had unofficial conversations with Pat's agent or representative and that an unofficial meeting of the minds has occurred. It's my understanding that this kind of thing happens fairly regularly in pro sports.

Steve

Then I see no reason to discount that the Suns are in secret negotiations with LeBron's agent to bring him here.



In all seriousness, we just simply are not seeing the same things. You are looking at a stat sheet to justify your view. There is another thread on this very forum you might be interested in reading.

I too don't see the same Amare stat line. I see the same Amare though. If we make it past the Lakers and he continues to not put up numbers then maybe I will change my mind. We have to get past the Lakers first.

 

[Cheesebeef]

"I'm not giving him no hype right now; he had a lucky game in Game 1," Stoudemire said after Suns practice Tuesday at Staples Center. "We just got to make sure we box him out. I think I focused so much on [Pau] Gasol and [Andrew] Bynum to where he snuck in there and got 19 boards, so now we just got to make sure there's three guys out there that can rebound well [when] adding Odom. So, we got to do a better job on them."

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5199267

Amare just proved to me why he should never get a MAX contract from us. He NEVER takes responsibility for ANYTHING he does or doesn't do, thus in my eyes he will never be able to look at his own flaws (which are huge defensively) and do anything about them.

lucky... what a freaking joke that mental midget is.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Amare just proved to me why he should never get a MAX contract from us. He NEVER takes responsibility for ANYTHING he does or doesn't do, thus in my eyes he will never be able to look at his own flaws (which are huge defensively) and do anything about them.

lucky... what a freaking joke that mental midget is.

If he goes out tomorrow night and puts up 25 points and 15 boards, and holds Odom to 10 points and 3 rebounds, I'll buy into his warped strategy of call a dude "lucky" who just roasted your ass for 19 & 19. If he doesn't do this, then I'll agree with your assessment Cheese that he is indeed a mental midget...

 

[AzStevenCal]

In all seriousness, we just simply are not seeing the same things. You are looking at a stat sheet to justify your view. There is another thread on this very forum you might be interested in reading.

I too don't see the same Amare stat line. I see the same Amare though. If we make it past the Lakers and he continues to not put up numbers then maybe I will change my mind. We have to get past the Lakers first.

I've read the other thread. It has no bearing on my comments because my comments have nothing to do with the Lakers game. And I researched the stats BECAUSE of what I saw and not the other way around.

I came to the Amare to Miami conclusion more than a week ago because of the very reasons I offered today. In fact, I re-watched the first 2 Firefly episodes last night while the rest of you watched the game. I didn't even watch the game until today, well after I started this thread. It doesn't make me right but it really should dispel the notion that I am talking about last night's game.

Steve

 

[cly2tw]

where did this come from? Malone had a post-up game, was a great passer and rebounded no matter what kind of front line he played. Amare does none of those.

Malone had a face-up game, not a post-up game. Barkley had a post-up game. Sorry dude. Amare is a better offensive version of Malone barring further injuries.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Malone had a face-up game, not a post-up game. Barkley had a post-up game. Sorry dude. Amare is a better offensive version of Malone barring further injuries.

because he gets to the line as much... or because he's just as good of a passer... or because he has a go-to turn around jumper? The above isn't just wrong, it's hilarious.

And tell me this... if Amare's a better offensive version of Malone, why is his scoring average 5 POINTS BELOW Malone's (and that's with Malone's entire career thrown in, not just up to the same point, when Malone's scoring average was 7 points higher).

Like I said, a ludicrous statement, with absolutely zero proof to back it up.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Amare is a better offensive version of Malone barring further injuries.

Maybe today, but I wouldn't bet on it - Karl probably stays in shape. However, both in their prime Malone was a far superior offensive weapon than Amare has been so far. I don't think Amare has necessarily peaked yet so perhaps he'll close the gap.

Steve

 

[82CardsGrad]

Malone had a face-up game, not a post-up game. Barkley had a post-up game. Sorry dude. Amare is a better offensive version of Malone barring further injuries.

Huh? Are you serious? Malone was a far more complete offensive threat than is Amare. Not even close.
That's not meant to be a total knock on Amare as I believe he is a tremendous offensive threat. But it's, well.... just ignorant to suggest that he is a better offensive version of Malone. Wow...

 

[cly2tw]

because he gets to the line as much... or because he's just as good of a passer... or because he has a go-to turn around jumper? The above isn't just wrong, it's hilarious.

And tell me this... if Amare's a better offensive version of Malone, why is his scoring average 5 POINTS BELOW Malone's (and that's with Malone's entire career thrown in, not just up to the same point, when Malone's scoring average was 7 points higher).

Like I said, a ludicrous statement, with absolutely zero proof to back it up.

I don't know how to take you serious when you started with Malone having a post-up game while he only had a face-up game. As to 5 POINTS below Malone, have you ever heard of someone named Stockton or Sloan? They were completely different from Nash and D'Antoni. Stockton deferred to Malone his whole career, while Nash has been the focal point on his own team with his commi Weltanschauung of 'sharing the welth' with everybody and let defense dictate who he passes the ball to. (Most recent example being his passing to Frye for contested 3s, three times in a row in 1st quarter in game loss to Lakers.] And Sloan built his offense around Malone while DA never wanted anything to do with developing a talent such as Amare.

Amare, when given the chance like since the 2nd half, has shown that he can pass very well for a bigman. The potential has been there without tapping. And where he has the quick steps followed with power for +1s, Malone only had sheer power and sharp elbows his entire career. Malone has not been a very good defender before he got old, aside swinging elbows for rebounds.

One thing tells me why they are comparable on offense: They have the great feel for space and set great picks/screens for teammates. That's not so common among bigmen with their scoring ability.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

because he gets to the line as much... or because he's just as good of a passer... or because he has a go-to turn around jumper? The above isn't just wrong, it's hilarious.

And tell me this... if Amare's a better offensive version of Malone, why is his scoring average 5 POINTS BELOW Malone's (and that's with Malone's entire career thrown in, not just up to the same point, when Malone's scoring average was 7 points higher).

Like I said, a ludicrous statement, with absolutely zero proof to back it up.

I hate debating with you because I generally agree with what you say. The reason for this has a lot to do with the lack of options the Jazz had outside of the Stockton/Malone duo. Phoenix for the most part has had much more offensive talent than the Jazz did.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't know how to take you serious when you started with Malone having a post-up game while he only had a face-up game.

Like I said, Malone could catch the ball in the post and kill people with his turn-around jumper and he could smash people down if he wanted for Layups. Amare can't do either one of those. Malone had the full package. Amare's got... ah, forget it, if you somehow think Amare's offensive game is as good or better than Malone's, I'll let you live on that island of one.

As to 5 POINTS below Malone, have you ever heard of someone named Stockton or Sloan? They were completely different from Nash and D'Antoni. Stockton deferred to Malone his whole career, while Nash has been the focal point on his own team with his commi Weltanschauung of 'sharing the welth' with everybody and let defense dictate who he passes the ball to. (Most recent example being his passing to Frye for contested 3s, three times in a row in 1st quarter in game loss to Lakers.] And Sloan built his offense around Malone while DA never wanted anything to do with developing a talent such as Amare.

I wouldn't trust him either considering how much of a mental midget Amare is. You don't put the ball in the hands of your dumbest (on and off the court) player and hope to be successful.

Amare, when given the chance like since the 2nd half, has shown that he can pass very well for a bigman. The potential has been there without tapping.

can pass very well for a bigman... to the tune of ONE assist per game... pretty much the same amount for his ENTIRE CAREER. Just because he actually started to pass doesn't mean he did it well.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Like I said, Malone could catch the ball in the post and kill people with his turn-around jumper and he could smash people down if he wanted for Layups. Amare can't do either one of those. Malone had the full package. Amare's got... ah, forget it, if you somehow think Amare's offensive game is as good or better than Malone's, I'll let you live on that island of one.



I wouldn't trust him either considering how much of a mental midget Amare is. You don't put the ball in the hands of your dumbest (on and off the court) player and hope to be successful.



can pass very well for a bigman... to the tune of ONE assist per game... pretty much the same amount for his ENTIRE CAREER. Just because he actually started to pass doesn't mean he did it well.

How anyone can argue with these facts is lost on me... Amare is a very, very good offensive player. However, he's not in the same league as Malone in terms of offensive skills. Not even in the same area code!!
Get real people!!!

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd wager that if you polled a random group of NBA fans that have at least 20 years experience following the league and ignored anyone that is a Suns fan, a Jazz fan, an Amare fan or a Malone fan you'd need a sampling in the thousands before you found someone who would rate Amare above Malone at either end of the court. In fact, I think you'd be just as likely to find someone select Amare as the better defensive player of the two. Not because he's a better defender but simply because you'd have to have a private agenda/bias to favor Amare's game over Malone's.

Steve

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I'd wager that if you polled a random group of NBA fans that have at least 20 years experience following the league and ignored anyone that is a Suns fan, a Jazz fan, an Amare fan or a Malone fan you'd need a sampling in the thousands before you found someone who would rate Amare above Malone at either end of the court. In fact, I think you'd be just as likely to find someone select Amare as the better defensive player of the two. Not because he's a better defender but simply because you'd have to have a private agenda/bias to favor Amare's game over Malone's.

Steve

I'll take Amare's game over Malone's at this time in the league. I think that the speed and quickness of the league would hinder Malone. His jumper to 18' would still be good, as well as his turn around jumper. If Malone was without Stockton and would have had to rely on an average PG, I think he would have been considerably worse.

I don't believe that Amare has, or will have the better career than Malone though.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'll take Amare's game over Malone's at this time in the league. I think that the speed and quickness of the league would hinder Malone. His jumper to 18' would still be good, as well as his turn around jumper. If Malone was without Stockton and would have had to rely on an average PG, I think he would have been considerably worse.

I don't believe that Amare has, or will have the better career than Malone though.

Well, fortunately as a Suns fan you're excluded from the sampling but still I must admit I'm surprised.

I think Karl would fail in today's league in much the same way that Tim Duncan would fail in today's league. That is to say, he would have incredible success. Most of the changes in this league have occurred on the perimeter which would in no way hamper Karl's game. He'd have to learn to play without spreading and swinging his elbows on every play but that's about the only problem I see.

Steve

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Well, fortunately as a Suns fan you're excluded from the sampling but still I must admit I'm surprised.

I think Karl would fail in today's league in much the same way that Tim Duncan would fail in today's league. That is to say, he would have incredible success. Most of the changes in this league have occurred on the perimeter which would in no way hamper Karl's game. He'd have to learn to play without spreading and swinging his elbows on every play but that's about the only problem I see.

Steve

I didn't say fail, I'd say considerably worse. He wouldn't have gone down as arguably the best PF in league history if he played now. He score around 20ppg and make a few All Star teams. In fact, I'd hypothetically gauge his success to that of Pau Gasol right now.

Malone wasn't even as close to Duncan in the post. Duncan has a variety of move with both hands, something Malone didn't really have.

 

[Cheesebeef]

boy, I think people REALLY forget what Karl Malone, in his prime, was like. When he was getting those Jazz teams to the Finals, he was already in decline. The guy was ridiculously powerful and was quick on the perimeter, besides being a beast of a physical specimen. At age 27, he was averaging 30, 12 and 3 assists. Those are SILLY numbers. That guy was frightening but those Jazz teams just never had enough talent around him and Stockton to do anything until all the West Superpowers pretty much died off. By then, he was 33-34. I think that's how people remember him when in reality, in his 20's, in his prime, he was an unstoppable force.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'll take Amare's game over Malone's at this time in the league. I think that the speed and quickness of the league would hinder Malone. His jumper to 18' would still be good, as well as his turn around jumper. If Malone was without Stockton and would have had to rely on an average PG, I think he would have been considerably worse.

I don't believe that Amare has, or will have the better career than Malone though.

i love that people on here are discounting malone b/c he played with stockton while ignoring the fact that amare is playing with nash. hilarious. just this morning i heard an unbiased host talking about how much poorer of an offensive player amare would be without nash. and while i don't necessarily concur with that point, i think it's equally silly to make the pg argument about one of these guys without making it about the other.

btw, for whomever said the jazz never had any additional offensive firepower around malone, you're wrong. horny was a serious offensive threat, as was thurl bailey in his time, and bryon russell.

these arguments are grasping at straws. i figure those on here that are arguing that amare is a better offensive player than was malone are younger and didn't really have an opportunity to watch the mailman in his prime. malone is still considered in the argument for best PF of all time. amare wouldn't (yet) be mentioned in that conversation.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i love that people on here are discounting malone b/c he played with stockton while ignoring the fact that amare is playing with nash. hilarious. just this morning i heard an unbiased host talking about how much poorer of an offensive player amare would be without nash. and while i don't necessarily concur with that point, i think it's equally silly to make the pg argument about one of these guys without making it about the other.

btw, for whomever said the jazz never had any additional offensive firepower around malone, you're wrong. horny was a serious offensive threat, as was thurl bailey in his time, and bryon russell.

They got Horny when Horny was already in decline, Thurl Bailey was a decent offensive player and... Bryon Russel?! Come on dude.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think I figure out what Amare really is... he's the PF version of Vince Carter. Came into the league with all this fire and people thought he was going to be one of the greats... but then injuries hit and that little bit of extra explosiveness was taken away and they became very good, but ultimately number 2 superstars who thought they were still what they were. Both have a tendency to disappear in the clutch/miss FTs, make ridiculously stupid plays, both have never committed to defense and both have had their hearts questioned numerous times.

bottom line - they're both soft.

 

[Bufalay]

I think I figure out what Amare really is... he's the PF version of Vince Carter. Came into the league with all this fire and people thought he was going to be one of the greats... but then injuries hit and that little bit of extra explosiveness was taken away and they became very good, but ultimately number 2 superstars who thought they were still what they were. Both have a tendency to disappear in the clutch/miss FTs, make ridiculously stupid plays, both have never committed to defense and both have had their hearts questioned numerous times.

bottom line - they're both soft.

Number 2 superstar has two meanings. One meaning applies to Amare, the other applies to Carter. Please don't compare Amare to Carter. Amare has played well in many more big games than Carter has.

 

[Renz]

boy, I think people REALLY forget what Karl Malone, in his prime, was like. When he was getting those Jazz teams to the Finals, he was already in decline. The guy was ridiculously powerful and was quick on the perimeter, besides being a beast of a physical specimen. At age 27, he was averaging 30, 12 and 3 assists. Those are SILLY numbers. That guy was frightening but those Jazz teams just never had enough talent around him and Stockton to do anything until all the West Superpowers pretty much died off. By then, he was 33-34. I think that's how people remember him when in reality, in his 20's, in his prime, he was an unstoppable force.

Maybe it's an age/generational thing. From '87 to '98 Malone was insanely good. "The Mailman" was the gold standard, no matter how you felt about the Jazz. He wasn't just good, he was tough!

Anyone who would take Amare over Malone in their primes is loony, IMO.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Anyone who would take Amare over Malone in their primes is loony, IMO.

DITTO!! It shouldn't even be debated... You would never hear this debate anywhere else but on this board.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Number 2 superstar has two meanings. One meaning applies to Amare, the other applies to Carter. Please don't compare Amare to Carter. Amare has played well in many more big games than Carter has.

since the micro-fracture surgery, can you remember a game or a playoff series where Amare was a huge factor? Vince Carter has had a lot of big games in the playoffs also, that ultimately contributed to very little.

 

[SirStefan32]

boy, I think people REALLY forget what Karl Malone, in his prime, was like. When he was getting those Jazz teams to the Finals, he was already in decline. The guy was ridiculously powerful and was quick on the perimeter, besides being a beast of a physical specimen. At age 27, he was averaging 30, 12 and 3 assists. Those are SILLY numbers. That guy was frightening but those Jazz teams just never had enough talent around him and Stockton to do anything until all the West Superpowers pretty much died off. By then, he was 33-34. I think that's how people remember him when in reality, in his 20's, in his prime, he was an unstoppable force.

I couldn't agree more. Every time somebody starts comparing Amare to Malone, I feel like pulling my hair out.

Malone was a perfect power forward. There was nothing that he couldn't do. People also forget just how tough Malone was, and how incredibly smart he was on the court.

While Amare is an amazing player on offense, comparing him to Malone is doing Malone a great disservice.