The Fix

[kerouac9]

We will know by halftime of the next game if they did anything to fix anything. That first 30 minutes of football will tell us where this team is headed for the rest of the year. Wholesale changes need to be made and we will know if they took advantage of the bye to right the ship. 30 minutes of football will tell all.

Nonsense. The Cards are not a bad football team. We're 13th in DVOA—just outside the playoff picture. San Francisco is 29th in DVOA. We have an exceptional defense (4th) and terrible offense and special teams. San Francisco is terrible in all three phases of the game.

The only way we'll know something significant in the first half is if we're down 27-6 and Palmer's getting sacked over and over again. We were up 7-7 at halftime in Thursday night football. What did that teach us?

 

[kerouac9]

Fix is to build up more talent on defense and OL. That is what the draft and FA should be focused on. You can win the SB with a strong running game and dominant defense it has been proven. Keim needs to start hitting on his first and second round picks, ARZ cannot afford to red shirt guys, immediate help is needed if they want to win SB in the next couple of years.

We're 4th in offensive DVOA and made high-profile draft picks and free agent signings on the offensive line the last three years (Cooper, Veldheer, Iupati, Humphries, Mathis). What more do you want?

 

[Metcalf Rules]

But the losses, and the way we lost, to NE, LA, and Seattle(don't care what anybody says, a tie the way it came felt like a loss) are going to be the games that bite us in the arse. .

It will be a shame if we miss the playoffs due to a missed chip shot fg or a bad snap.

 

[cardpa]

Nonsense. The Cards are not a bad football team. We're 13th in DVOA—just outside the playoff picture. San Francisco is 29th in DVOA. We have an exceptional defense (4th) and terrible offense and special teams. San Francisco is terrible in all three phases of the game.

The only way we'll know something significant in the first half is if we're down 27-6 and Palmer's getting sacked over and over again. We were up 7-7 at halftime in Thursday night football. What did that teach us?

I don't see how you can say nonsense other than to disagree because you like to disagree with posters. If they come out and play similar to the way they have played in the first 7 games this year, it is a pretty good indicator that not much has been changes or fixed over the bye. You do realize they have scored a grand total of 7 points in the first quarter all season so far. The second quarter hasn't been much better with 7, 24, 7, 7, 7, 7, 3, and 7 points. You take away the TB game which is a statistical anomaly and this team has scored a total of 52 points in 7 games in the first half. That is less than one TD per game on average for the first half. If we see similar results in the next game no matter who the opponent is we can make a reasonable conclusion that nothing has improved over the course of the bye week. All I am saying is if we see the game unfolding in a very similar manner as we have seen in the previous contests played out before this one then with the same style of play, the same mistakes, the same stale offense and poor special teams then we will be able to make a pretty accurate assumption that nothing was done to make changes or improvements that would result in better play by this team than we have seen in the previous 8 games. I think this is a really simple concept to understand.

You also unwittingly made a statement that supports my theory. "The only way we'll know something significant in the first half is if we're down 27-6 and Palmer's getting sacked over and over again."

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nonsense. The Cards are not a bad football team. We're 13th in DVOA—just outside the playoff picture. San Francisco is 29th in DVOA. We have an exceptional defense (4th) and terrible offense and special teams. San Francisco is terrible in all three phases of the game.

The only way we'll know something significant in the first half is if we're down 27-6 and Palmer's getting sacked over and over again. We were up 7-7 at halftime in Thursday night football. What did that teach us?

That it's possible to be up while tied?!

 

[Jetstream Green]

You know what would make me smile. We defer if we win the toss (yup, change anything you can to right the ship down to our coin flip decisions), defense forces the punt and we have a solid drive with points... then something has been fixed

 

[overseascardfan]

We're 4th in offensive DVOA and made high-profile draft picks and free agent signings on the offensive line the last three years (Cooper, Veldheer, Iupati, Humphries, Mathis). What more do you want?

I would like a 2015 - 2016 DEN defense and an OL not tied for second in sacks allowed this year, how about that?

 

[WildBB]

I would like a 2015 - 2016 DEN defense and an OL not tied for second in sacks allowed this year, how about that?

It's up to the coaching staff to make the adjustments to ensure it doesn't continue the whole season. Even more so now.

 

[overseascardfan]

It's up to the coaching staff to make the adjustments to ensure it doesn't continue the whole season. Even more so now.

I'm talking about for next season, all that can be done now is to now as you suggest make game to game adjustments and try to make the playoffs but that is now going to be a real challenge.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Honestly, anyone here who is suggesting to 'blow up' the current roster must have a interesting dramatic profile on social media. Get that OL fixed which comes down to a center and a guard and they do not have to be all-pros. As far as defense, it really is not that bad. The future can be accomplished as far as QB if we get lucky (yes, lucky with a young guy because even picking number one does reflect ultimate success at the position) meaning keep Palmer and groom that young kid in the wings and hope we can draft well enough and get lucky... but we have to draft the young kid now

 

[Cards_Campos]

Guys if we go 6-2 it's a guarantee we make the playoffs. The wild card trams are like 1 or 1.5 games ahead with us playing a few of the contenders. But all these teams play each other. If we go 6-2 that is 9-6-1 which get 1 of the wild card spots. We could win the division of Buffalo wins tonight. But guys the NFC is a bunch of flawed teams that if they get hot could make the super bowl. It reminds of the 2 years the Giants won it all. They were 9-7. And wild card teams. The NFC is wide open right now. Heck what's crazy is that the number 1 seed is technically still possible if we saybwin our next 3....at 6-4-1 and with wins over Minnesota and Atlanta....we would be right there.....it's up to them. We have the ability. Let's see if we can do it.

 

[kerouac9]

First round pick Humphries is on pace for 11 sacks and 10 penalties in his first season as a starter.

Fourth round pick Bobby Massie started as a rookie and had 13.5 sacks and 4 penalties in 16 starts. This season he's allowed 3 sacks and committed 2 penalties in 8 games (all starts).

 

[Beaver]

Fortunately for AZ, rest of NFC, except DAL, isn't playing that great now. Could see a 9-7 playoff team this year?

 

[Chopper0080]

We're 4th in offensive DVOA and made high-profile draft picks and free agent signings on the offensive line the last three years (Cooper, Veldheer, Iupati, Humphries, Mathis). What more do you want?

This is a good point. Unlike previous regimes, Keim has invested in the offensive line. I don't believe it is feasible to just continue to throw money and resources at it while also fielding a solid team. It has come to the point where the coaching staff needs to develop these linemen. We are married to Veldheer, Iupati, and Humphries for the near future. Boehm is going to need to start next year. We will have a RG spot open which we will fill with someone on the roster to use a draft pick on. We can count on Veldheer, Iupati, Humphries, Boehm, Wetzel, and Toner next year. I'm not sure if Watford and Shipley will be brought back. Mathis will most likely retire. My guess is that we will stay out of free agency in regards to the line unless we can get a vet for cheap.

K9 and I disagree in relation to Palmer. I see a guy who is looking to move once his back foot hits because that is when he is getting pressure. I also see a QB who gets hit whne he tries to move up in the pocket. Our most underserved position in my opinion is the C. I don't know where Boehm is in regards to development, but hopefully he can demonstrate an ability to set the front of the pocket better than Shipley. If we can somehow generate consistency up front, I believe Palmer can get into a rhythm and make the necessary plays.

 

[Jetstream Green]

This is a good point. Unlike previous regimes, Keim has invested in the offensive line. I don't believe it is feasible to just continue to throw money and resources at it while also fielding a solid team. It has come to the point where the coaching staff needs to develop these linemen. We are married to Veldheer, Iupati, and Humphries for the near future. Boehm is going to need to start next year. We will have a RG spot open which we will fill with someone on the roster to use a draft pick on. We can count on Veldheer, Iupati, Humphries, Boehm, Wetzel, and Toner next year. I'm not sure if Watford and Shipley will be brought back. Mathis will most likely retire. My guess is that we will stay out of free agency in regards to the line unless we can get a vet for cheap.

K9 and I disagree in relation to Palmer. I see a guy who is looking to move once his back foot hits because that is when he is getting pressure. I also see a QB who gets hit whne he tries to move up in the pocket. Our most underserved position in my opinion is the C. I don't know where Boehm is in regards to development, but hopefully he can demonstrate an ability to set the front of the pocket better than Shipley. If we can somehow generate consistency up front, I believe Palmer can get into a rhythm and make the necessary plays.

I have a honest question though, does not the offense Arians has usually require for plays to develop longer than other offenses. In other words, the nature of his offense in the passing game usually gets the QB hit a lot and I think it was the same in Pittsburgh... maybe that, and we have a new right side (granted the inexperience of Humphries and the deficiencies of Shipley) accounts for all the sacks

 

[Chopper0080]

I have a honest question though, does not the offense Arians has usually require for plays to develop longer than other offenses. In other words, the nature of his offense in the passing game usually gets the QB hit a lot and I think it was the same in Pittsburgh... maybe that, and we have a new right side (granted the inexperience of Humphries and the deficiencies of Shipley) accounts for all the sacks

Yes, Arians likes to throw the ball down the field which requires QBs to hold on to the ball longer. He also does not like to keep players in to help block which puts more pressure on the QB to identify the defense and get the ball out. His QBs will always get hit more than quick passing offense QBs, but there are benefits to it as well. My main concern regarding Arians offense is how it will be for a young QB to adapt to. I knw he has had success teaching it to Roethlisberger and Luck, but they were very solid QB prospects.

Arians offense does showcase our deficiencies along our offensive line. That is the big issue right now. We are not getting the payoff from Palmer which makes it worse. In my opinion, this is something that can be fixed, but it depends on a bunch of moving parts to do so.

 

[overseascardfan]

Yes, Arians likes to throw the ball down the field which requires QBs to hold on to the ball longer. He also does not like to keep players in to help block which puts more pressure on the QB to identify the defense and get the ball out. His QBs will always get hit more than quick passing offense QBs, but there are benefits to it as well. My main concern regarding Arians offense is how it will be for a young QB to adapt to. I knw he has had success teaching it to Roethlisberger and Luck, but they were very solid QB prospects.

Arians offense does showcase our deficiencies along our offensive line. That is the big issue right now. We are not getting the payoff from Palmer which makes it worse. In my opinion, this is something that can be fixed, but it depends on a bunch of moving parts to do so.

So not sure about your post, you seem to contradict yourself. Your saying the offense has a problem protecting the QB but you don't think we should invest anymore resources or money to fix? So I assume you are proposing BA change his system (fat chance) or Palmer to become more mobile or quicken his release or decision making (fat chance again). The only was to fix the problem is to get a mobile QB or bring in immediate help for Palmer next year because despite ARZ using draft picks on OL, none have panned out so far. Only Watford & Humphries are ARZ draftees that are in the starting lineup but that is only because no better options are available at this point.

 

[Chopper0080]

So not sure about your post, you seem to contradict yourself. Your saying the offense has a problem protecting the QB but you don't think we should invest anymore resources or money to fix? So I assume you are proposing BA change his system (fat chance) or Palmer to become more mobile or quicken his release or decision making (fat chance again). The only was to fix the problem is to get a mobile QB or bring in immediate help for Palmer next year because despite ARZ using draft picks on OL, none have panned out so far. Only Watford & Humphries are ARZ draftees that are in the starting lineup but that is only because no better options are available at this point.

Ok, I'm not sure I understand where you are seeing the contradiction.

We have already invested so much into the offensive line, it isn't feasible to invest more. This means it is up to the coaching staff to coach up the players we have or adjust how they are doing things. As an organization you can't spend 8 mil on each of the 5 offensive line spots. You also can't invest a first round pick in all of the offensive line spots. We are paying 10 mil per year to Veldheer, 9 mil to Iupati, and have invested a first rounder in Humphries. We also had a failed first rounder in Cooper. At some point we have to identify the root of the problem and fix it. Throwing more money and picks at it will only hurt the rest of our roster.

 

[overseascardfan]

Ok, I'm not sure I understand where you are seeing the contradiction.

We have already invested so much into the offensive line, it isn't feasible to invest more. This means it is up to the coaching staff to coach up the players we have or adjust how they are doing things. As an organization you can't spend 8 mil on each of the 5 offensive line spots. You also can't invest a first round pick in all of the offensive line spots. We are paying 10 mil per year to Veldheer, 9 mil to Iupati, and have invested a first rounder in Humphries. We also had a failed first rounder in Cooper. At some point we have to identify the root of the problem and fix it. Throwing more money and picks at it will only hurt the rest of our roster.

The root problem is that we have not been able to develop the OL we've drafted thus we've had to bring in FA's for every spot except RT which Humphries is really struggling with pass protection. Couple that with the fact that 2 starters are FA's at the end of the year, so your saying don't use early round picks or sign FA's to replace them...go with late round guys and hope the OL coach can coach them up next year? I would rather sign 2 FA's and draft replacements for Campbell, Minter, Palmer, Floyd & Marcus Cooper, at least we've been able to develop a lot of our defensive draft picks.

 

[cardpa]

Ok, I'm not sure I understand where you are seeing the contradiction.

We have already invested so much into the offensive line, it isn't feasible to invest more. This means it is up to the coaching staff to coach up the players we have or adjust how they are doing things. As an organization you can't spend 8 mil on each of the 5 offensive line spots. You also can't invest a first round pick in all of the offensive line spots. We are paying 10 mil per year to Veldheer, 9 mil to Iupati, and have invested a first rounder in Humphries. We also had a failed first rounder in Cooper. At some point we have to identify the root of the problem and fix it. Throwing more money and picks at it will only hurt the rest of our roster.

So the root of the problem is the present Oline better than the previous infamous Oline coach Russ Grimm. Neither one could develop players into at the very least decent run and pass blockers. In fact I would argue that Veldheer has gotten worse instead of better.

 

[Chopper0080]

The root problem is that we have not been able to develop the OL we've drafted thus we've had to bring in FA's for every spot except RT which Humphries is really struggling with pass protection. Couple that with the fact that 2 starters are FA's at the end of the year, so your saying don't use early round picks or sign FA's to replace them...go with late round guys and hope the OL coach can coach them up next year? I would rather sign 2 FA's and draft replacements for Campbell, Minter, Palmer, Floyd & Marcus Cooper, at least we've been able to develop a lot of our defensive draft picks.

I know that is what we would like to do, but it is not cost effective. Is it feasible to spend $6 in a long term deal for another RG? A player of AQ Shipley's quality is worth around 800k. Same with Watford. Toner, Boehm, Wetzel cost 575k. You can't just buy into overpriced free agent contracts to cure you. That leads to having an old expensive unit with little depth. I'm not saying you can't use a 2nd or 3rd rounder on a OG to fill in the gaps left by Mathis and Watford. Hell, you can even re-sign Watford if you like. But we can't go out and keep dumping resources into the offensive line and expect to be able to field a solid roster. A high draft pick limits our ability to add a young QB, LB, CB or DL. A quality FA OL will cost us the ability to re-sign our own players like Campbell, John Brown, Chandler Jones, Markus Golden, Bucannon, and Tony Jefferson.

 

[cardpa]

There is no continuity on the Oline. Between changes on the line and injuries this team hasn't put the same 5 guys out there in quite some time. They haven't been able to keep even 3 out of 5 positions together for 3 straight years. I am willing to bet the better Olines have at least 3 players who they have been able to run out there for 3 straight years and some 4 or even 5 players have stayed the same.

2016
Veldheer/Wetzel
Iupati/Wetzel
Shipley
Mathis/Watford
Humphries

2015
Veldheer
Iupati
Sendlein
Cooper/Larsen
Massie

2014
Veldheer
Larsen
Sendlein
Fanaika
Massie

 

[Garthshort]

We just have to play better. The OL is a concern, and John Wetzel is the key. If we perform (OL) like we did in the Carolina game, then we just have to start getting ready for the Draft. And as for the Draft, we don't have to worry about spending a high (1 or 2) pick on a offensive or defensive lineman, because they don't seem to work out anyway.

 

[cardpa]

The Oline pass protection has been pretty awful this year. Only 2 other teams (Indy, Cleveland) have given up more sacks and only 3 teams (Indy, Cleveland, Atl) have given up more QB hits. They are middle of the road in rushing (15th in yds. and 17th in avg.)

IN 2015 they were 4th best in sacks (27) and 24th in QB hits (103). They were 8th in rushing yds. and 15th in avg. In 2016 they have already given up 25 sacks.

 

[JeffGollin]

Our 1Q struggles suggest that we come into games unprepared; relying on our ability to adjust to bring us back in games.

Problem with that is - we're always digging our way out of holes (i.e. the house is playing with our money).

Are we still scripting the first 15 or so offensive plays? (Do we script the first 15 or so defensive schemes)?

Whatever we do, we don't seem to be doing it as well as we used to.