The Official Bradley Sowell Era Thread

[Mulli]

why aren't you giving LevI credit for singlehandedly getting the Cardinals to the Super Bowl five years ago?

 

[kerouac9]

With the QB play we had the last few years, going 10 yards in 3 downs proved difficult enough, so it could be argued that just about any penalty that made that more difficult was a "drive killer". But I know that won't satisfy you, so I will endeavor to provide more data behind my assertion.

I am not going to look at every OL in the League because doing this sort of analysis on a team I know well took me a couple of hours. So let's just say Levi doesn't have to be compare with the league-wide. Let's keep this limited to the Cardinals.

Since 2009 (excluding last year because of his injury), the Cardinal Offensive line was responsible for 78 penalties for 539 yards. Each of those years, Levi was the top penalty-getter for our OL. By himself, he accounted for 24 penalties for 160 yards. Put another way, he was responsible for 1/3 of the penalties the OL got over those 4 years.

We can go a little deeper. Levi was called for 5 holding penalties over that period, while the rest of the OL was flagged 23 times. That's probably about an appropriate distribution of that penalty. Now let's look at false-starts, the drive-killingest penalty in the book, IMO, because it is pre-snap. In the last 4 years, the Cardinals OL (besides Levi) had 19 false starts. Levi had 15!!!

Nine of his penalties came on 1st and 10. 8 came on 2nd down and (10, 9, 2, 10, 5, 12, 4, 10). 7 came on 3rd down and (8, 8, 20, 1, 6, 5, 6). Wish I could do analysis on the outcomes of those drives, but that data is not readily available. However, if drive-killing penalties are equally distributed amongst the total penalties given, the Levi would have had more than his fair share. That's all I can off at this point, other than what my eyes have told me since he came into the league.

Link to data is here: http://www.nflpenalties.com/

Thanks for finding that site. I'm insanely busy right now, and you deserve a more thoughtful response than I can make at this particular moment.

What I can say for sure is that the definition of "Drive-killing penalties" shouldn't be "all penalties, anywhere and all situations." Surely a false start on 3rd and one seems awful. But to define it primae faciae as a "drive killer" doesn't go deeply enough. Because if we got the first down, then it isn't a drive-killer, is it?

Similarly, a false start on first-and-10 can't really be considered a drive killer unless we know that (a) the Cards failed to pick up the first down and (b) the Cards failed to find themselves in a favorable situation on the next snap or two. If a drive that ends up 1st and 15 after a false start still gets the first down, I don't think that counts as a drive-killer.

I'm fine with people naming actual anecdotal examples of where this happened. Leonard Davis absolutely got a reputation for "drive killing" penalties after that unfortunate clock-runoff example, but it's not like that was a scenario that happened all the time.

And I'm not saying that Levi didn't commit penalties that killed drives; I'm sure I'll find examples where he did. But to say that "Thank God we're rid of this guy; I'm tired of him committing all these drive-killing penalties" without proper evidence just reeks of bias without the information.

Levi Brown is gone; Bradley Sowell seemed to play as effectively as Brown did against Tampa. We'll see what more information brings.

 

[Mulli]

Prima facie.

 

[Mulli]

Thanks for finding that site. I'm insanely busy right now, and you deserve a more thoughtful response than I can make at this particular moment.

What I can say for sure is that the definition of "Drive-killing penalties" shouldn't be "all penalties, anywhere and all situations." Surely a false start on 3rd and one seems awful. But to define it primae faciae as a "drive killer" doesn't go deeply enough. Because if we got the first down, then it isn't a drive-killer, is it?

Similarly, a false start on first-and-10 can't really be considered a drive killer unless we know that (a) the Cards failed to pick up the first down and (b) the Cards failed to find themselves in a favorable situation on the next snap or two. If a drive that ends up 1st and 15 after a false start still gets the first down, I don't think that counts as a drive-killer.

I'm fine with people naming actual anecdotal examples of where this happened. Leonard Davis absolutely got a reputation for "drive killing" penalties after that unfortunate clock-runoff example, but it's not like that was a scenario that happened all the time.

And I'm not saying that Levi didn't commit penalties that killed drives; I'm sure I'll find examples where he did. But to say that "Thank God we're rid of this guy; I'm tired of him committing all these drive-killing penalties" without proper evidence just reeks of bias without the information.

Levi Brown is gone; Bradley Sowell seemed to play as effectively as Brown did against Tampa. We'll see what more information brings.

What more needs to be said? He did it, and people are tired of it.

 

[D-Dogg]

I have no problem arguing that Levi gave up some bad sacks. The issue that I took with your post was that Levi was somehow susceptible to giving up game-killing penalties. Now it seems like you're uncomfortable substantiating that assertion, and you're moving the goal posts all over the place.

So now, according to you, pretty much every penalty or sack (or, apparently, hit or even hurry) is considered "drive-killing." I think that's probably a little too expansive to be useful.

According to me, this is what I said:

had a knack to make a stupid mistake at the dumbest possible time

You said drive-killing penalties in an attempt to pin it down on something, and I simply placed the goal posts back where they belonged.

And you didn't take issue with my post, you took issue with crisper's post, who did say "drive killing penalties."

I previously had the above more broad view of stupid mistake at the dumbest time, which includes sacks and shoving your guy into the QB's throwing lane, and blah blah blah.

 

[Mulli]

I am also happy that Bradley Sowell didn't have any "be the first back to help the QB up, because I was the last to move at the snap" moments.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

Thanks for finding that site. I'm insanely busy right now, and you deserve a more thoughtful response than I can make at this particular moment.

What I can say for sure is that the definition of "Drive-killing penalties" shouldn't be "all penalties, anywhere and all situations." Surely a false start on 3rd and one seems awful. But to define it primae faciae as a "drive killer" doesn't go deeply enough. Because if we got the first down, then it isn't a drive-killer, is it?

Similarly, a false start on first-and-10 can't really be considered a drive killer unless we know that (a) the Cards failed to pick up the first down and (b) the Cards failed to find themselves in a favorable situation on the next snap or two. If a drive that ends up 1st and 15 after a false start still gets the first down, I don't think that counts as a drive-killer.

I'm fine with people naming actual anecdotal examples of where this happened. Leonard Davis absolutely got a reputation for "drive killing" penalties after that unfortunate clock-runoff example, but it's not like that was a scenario that happened all the time.

And I'm not saying that Levi didn't commit penalties that killed drives; I'm sure I'll find examples where he did. But to say that "Thank God we're rid of this guy; I'm tired of him committing all these drive-killing penalties" without proper evidence just reeks of bias without the information.

Levi Brown is gone; Bradley Sowell seemed to play as effectively as Brown did against Tampa. We'll see what more information brings.

You guys should consider Personal Messaging each other...

This discussion is sort of like posting about each of our fantasy teams. Nobody cares.

 

[crisper57]

I have no life...

Thanks for finding that site. I'm insanely busy right now, and you deserve a more thoughtful response than I can make at this particular moment.

Let me make your case for you, since you may be right. Here is a brief history of Levi's penalties since 2009:

9/20/2009 (JAX) 3rd and 6 on JAX 25. False start moves team back. Rackers misses the FG. Potentially on Levi

9/20/2009 (JAX) Illegal touch pass (probably more on Warner than Levi). Cards still move down field for a FG. Not a Drive-Killer

9/27/2009 (IND) 3rd and 5. Cards complete 8 yard pass that is offset by a holding penalty. On the next play (3rd and 13), Warner throws and INT. Warner may not throw that ball at another down/distance. Definitely on Levi.

10/11/09 (HOU) 2nd and 10 becomes 2nd and 15 after a false start. Cards punt 2 plays later. Partially on Levi

10/18/09 (SEA) False start, but Cards eventually score a TD. Not a drive-killer.

10/18/09 (SEA) False start turns 2nd and 4 into 2nd and 9. Cards eventually get a 1st down. A few plays later, Levi gives up a sack/fumble. Penalty not a drive-killer, but the sack/fumble hurt.

10/25/09 (NYG) 2nd and 12. A 4 yard pass offset by illegal chop block. Cards punt 2 plays later. Partially on Levi.

11/1/09 (CAR) False start turns 1st and 10 into 1st and 15. Cards score a TD 6 plays later. Not a drive-killer.

11/22/09 (STL) 2nd and 5 at midfield turns into 2nd and 10 after a false-start. 10 second runoff. Time expires on the half 1 play later. Penalty and runoff cost the Cards one more chance to run a play before halftime.

11/29/09 (TEN) False start on first play of drive. Cards get a FG 11 plays later. Not a drive-killer

9/12/10 (STL) False start. Cards get 1st down 2 plays later, but it was a strange drive. 12 plays, 6 total yards and a punt. Not a drive-killer.

9/19/10 (ATL) Illegal formation declined because the Falcons intercepted the pass on that play. Not a drive killer.

11/14/10 (SEA) Final drive of game. False start. Cards still pick up first down but fail to score. Not a drive killer.

11/21/10 (KC) Holding penalty offsets an 8 yard reception. Cards go 4-and-out after this penalty. Drive killer.

11/29/10 (SF) Holding penalty offsets a 4 yd rush. Cards eventually get a first down and a FG. Not a drive killer.

12/5/10 (STL) 3rd and 20 on STL 39. False start makes it 3rd and 25. Out of field goal range??? We punt 1 play later. Partially on Levi, but the 10 yard holding penalty by another OL didn't help either.

9/18/11 (WSH) 2nd and 9. False start. Punt 2 plays later. Partially on Levi.

10/2/11 (NYG) Roughing the passer penalty puts Cards on NYG 30 yard line. Levi gets a holding penalty the next play. 8 plays later, Cards get a FG. Not a drive killer. Maybe a momentum speed bump?

10/30/2011 (BAL) 3rd and 8 on own 40 turns into 3rd and 13 after a false start. A sack 1 play later by a blitzing DB forces the Cards to punt. Drive-killer? Maybe.

12/4/11 (DAL) Overtime. False start. Doesn't matter. The next play, LSH takes that little dump pass 52 yards to the house and wins the game. Not a drive killer at all.

1/1/12 (SEA) 3rd on goal on Seattle 8 yard line. Personal Foul moves the Cardinals back 15. Field Goal. Yes, they got points, but Levi potentially cost them more.

1/1/12 (SEA) 2nd and 10. False start makes it 2nd and 15. Cards punt 2 plays later. Drive-killer. Cards were moving the ball before the penalty but did nothing after.

9/8/13 (STL) Holding penalty negated an 8 yard pass, but Cardinals score TD on the drive. Not a drive killer.

9/29/13 (TB) 1st and 10 on TB 11 yard line. False start pushes the Cardinals back. 2 plays later Palmer intercepted in end zone. Partially on Levi.

 

[crisper57]

You guys should consider Personal Messaging each other...

This discussion is sort of like posting about each of our fantasy teams. Nobody cares.

With the number of people jumping in on this conversation, it appears you are wrong.

 

[crisper57]

Since 2009 (52 games), Levi Brown Gave up 34 sacks, 38 hits, 127 hurries.

He had 24 penalties for 160 yards, the majority of which were pre-snap, mental errors.

He had nearly as many false-starts as the rest of the OL combined.

Let those numbers sink in for a moment, because even though I was familiar with how bad Levi was, the depth of his suckage still made my jaw drop.

BA was right when he said there was no risk in trading him because the position could not be played any worse. And if you look at where he struggled, SEA and STL seemed to have his number more than any other teams.

Sowell has a long way to go to be good/great, but he doesn't have a very tough climb to be an improvement.

So far, so good!

 

[Cheesebeef]

You guys should consider Personal Messaging each other...

This discussion is sort of like posting about each of our fantasy teams. Nobody cares.

wha? it's a discussion about our team and the impact Brown had on it. i think it's pretty interesting to see just how much of a detriment Levi was penalty wise.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Since 2009 (52 games), Levi Brown Gave up 34 sacks, 38 hits, 127 hurries.

He had 24 penalties for 160 yards, the majority of which were pre-snap, mental errors.

He had nearly as many false-starts as the rest of the OL combined.

Let those numbers sink in for a moment, because even though I was familiar with how bad Levi was, the depth of his suckage still made my jaw drop.

BA was right when he said there was no risk in trading him because the position could not be played any worse. And if you look at where he struggled, SEA and STL seemed to have his number more than any other teams.

Sowell has a long way to go to be good/great, but he doesn't have a very tough climb to be an improvement.

So far, so good!

As I said earlier in some other post, I'm amazed that the unloading of Levi Brown stirred up the type of debate and attack on Keim as was unleashed over the past few days...
Good riddance Levi!

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I think he did pretty good....

http://espn.go.com/blog/arizona-cardinals/post/_/id/1502/lt-sowell-seen-but-not-heard-from-sunday

Thanks for the link. Good read about Sowell.

Just like I saw it. He started out getting pushed around and grew stronger as the game progressed. Good debut IMO

 

[BigRedRage]

What more needs to be said? He did it, and people are tired of it.

I watch cardinal football, no data needed, levi was the game killer.

 

[TJ]

As I said earlier in some other post, I'm amazed that the unloading of Levi Brown stirred up the type of debate and attack on Keim as was unleashed over the past few days...
Good riddance Levi!

Complainers will always find a reason to complain.

 

[D-Dogg]

Since 2009 (52 games), Levi Brown Gave up 34 sacks, 38 hits, 127 hurries.

He had 24 penalties for 160 yards, the majority of which were pre-snap, mental errors.

He had nearly as many false-starts as the rest of the OL combined.

Let those numbers sink in for a moment, because even though I was familiar with how bad Levi was, the depth of his suckage still made my jaw drop.

BA was right when he said there was no risk in trading him because the position could not be played any worse. And if you look at where he struggled, SEA and STL seemed to have his number more than any other teams.

Sowell has a long way to go to be good/great, but he doesn't have a very tough climb to be an improvement.

So far, so good!

Wow, major kudos to you! That is amazing work to get those stats from wherever you drudged them up.

No wonder that's the prevailing perception of the bum, he was a presnap idiot and post-snap disaster.

 

[crisper57]

Wow, major kudos to you! That is amazing work to get those stats from wherever you drudged them up.

No wonder that's the prevailing perception of the bum, he was a presnap idiot and post-snap disaster.

Thanks!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Complainers will always find a reason to complain.

and people who can't just talk football want to try and pick fights will always be people who just try to pick fights.

 

[TJ]

and people who can't just talk football want to try and pick fights will always be people who just try to pick fights.

a) Pot meet kettle

b) Apparently, you believe you fit the criteria of my previous post; otherwise, you wouldn't have responded

c) It's become clear that you have a vendetta since you've been targeting me with this same garbage for a few weeks now. Frankly, I don't care what your beef is with me, but all of your posts (particularly ones like the above mentioned) aren't worth anyone's bandwidth.

Feel free to respond, but you're now on "ignore."

 

[40yearfan]

With the QB play we had the last few years, going 10 yards in 3 downs proved difficult enough, so it could be argued that just about any penalty that made that more difficult was a "drive killer". But I know that won't satisfy you, so I will endeavor to provide more data behind my assertion.

I am not going to look at every OL in the League because doing this sort of analysis on a team I know well took me a couple of hours. So let's just say Levi doesn't have to be compare with the league-wide. Let's keep this limited to the Cardinals.

Since 2009 (excluding last year because of his injury), the Cardinal Offensive line was responsible for 78 penalties for 539 yards. Each of those years, Levi was the top penalty-getter for our OL. By himself, he accounted for 24 penalties for 160 yards. Put another way, he was responsible for 1/3 of the penalties the OL got over those 4 years.

We can go a little deeper. Levi was called for 5 holding penalties over that period, while the rest of the OL was flagged 23 times. That's probably about an appropriate distribution of that penalty. Now let's look at false-starts, the drive-killingest penalty in the book, IMO, because it is pre-snap. In the last 4 years, the Cardinals OL (besides Levi) had 19 false starts. Levi had 15!!!

Nine of his penalties came on 1st and 10. 8 came on 2nd down and (10, 9, 2, 10, 5, 12, 4, 10). 7 came on 3rd down and (8, 8, 20, 1, 6, 5, 6). Wish I could do analysis on the outcomes of those drives, but that data is not readily available. However, if drive-killing penalties are equally distributed amongst the total penalties given, the Levi would have had more than his fair share. That's all I can off at this point, other than what my eyes have told me since he came into the league.

Link to data is here: http://www.nflpenalties.com/

Let me make your case for you, since you may be right. Here is a brief history of Levi's penalties since 2009:

9/20/2009 (JAX) 3rd and 6 on JAX 25. False start moves team back. Rackers misses the FG. Potentially on Levi

9/20/2009 (JAX) Illegal touch pass (probably more on Warner than Levi). Cards still move down field for a FG. Not a Drive-Killer

9/27/2009 (IND) 3rd and 5. Cards complete 8 yard pass that is offset by a holding penalty. On the next play (3rd and 13), Warner throws and INT. Warner may not throw that ball at another down/distance. Definitely on Levi.

10/11/09 (HOU) 2nd and 10 becomes 2nd and 15 after a false start. Cards punt 2 plays later. Partially on Levi

10/18/09 (SEA) False start, but Cards eventually score a TD. Not a drive-killer.

10/18/09 (SEA) False start turns 2nd and 4 into 2nd and 9. Cards eventually get a 1st down. A few plays later, Levi gives up a sack/fumble. Penalty not a drive-killer, but the sack/fumble hurt.

10/25/09 (NYG) 2nd and 12. A 4 yard pass offset by illegal chop block. Cards punt 2 plays later. Partially on Levi.

11/1/09 (CAR) False start turns 1st and 10 into 1st and 15. Cards score a TD 6 plays later. Not a drive-killer.

11/22/09 (STL) 2nd and 5 at midfield turns into 2nd and 10 after a false-start. 10 second runoff. Time expires on the half 1 play later. Penalty and runoff cost the Cards one more chance to run a play before halftime.

11/29/09 (TEN) False start on first play of drive. Cards get a FG 11 plays later. Not a drive-killer

9/12/10 (STL) False start. Cards get 1st down 2 plays later, but it was a strange drive. 12 plays, 6 total yards and a punt. Not a drive-killer.

9/19/10 (ATL) Illegal formation declined because the Falcons intercepted the pass on that play. Not a drive killer.

11/14/10 (SEA) Final drive of game. False start. Cards still pick up first down but fail to score. Not a drive killer.

11/21/10 (KC) Holding penalty offsets an 8 yard reception. Cards go 4-and-out after this penalty. Drive killer.

11/29/10 (SF) Holding penalty offsets a 4 yd rush. Cards eventually get a first down and a FG. Not a drive killer.

12/5/10 (STL) 3rd and 20 on STL 39. False start makes it 3rd and 25. Out of field goal range??? We punt 1 play later. Partially on Levi, but the 10 yard holding penalty by another OL didn't help either.

9/18/11 (WSH) 2nd and 9. False start. Punt 2 plays later. Partially on Levi.

10/2/11 (NYG) Roughing the passer penalty puts Cards on NYG 30 yard line. Levi gets a holding penalty the next play. 8 plays later, Cards get a FG. Not a drive killer. Maybe a momentum speed bump?

10/30/2011 (BAL) 3rd and 8 on own 40 turns into 3rd and 13 after a false start. A sack 1 play later by a blitzing DB forces the Cards to punt. Drive-killer? Maybe.

12/4/11 (DAL) Overtime. False start. Doesn't matter. The next play, LSH takes that little dump pass 52 yards to the house and wins the game. Not a drive killer at all.

1/1/12 (SEA) 3rd on goal on Seattle 8 yard line. Personal Foul moves the Cardinals back 15. Field Goal. Yes, they got points, but Levi potentially cost them more.

1/1/12 (SEA) 2nd and 10. False start makes it 2nd and 15. Cards punt 2 plays later. Drive-killer. Cards were moving the ball before the penalty but did nothing after.

9/8/13 (STL) Holding penalty negated an 8 yard pass, but Cardinals score TD on the drive. Not a drive killer.

9/29/13 (TB) 1st and 10 on TB 11 yard line. False start pushes the Cardinals back. 2 plays later Palmer intercepted in end zone. Partially on Levi.

Excellent work C57!!! This was a lot of research and time involved and I appreciate all your effort. Thanks.

 

[ajcardfan]

It is laughable that Levi Brown's play was defended by so many, right up until the trade, and a guy is signed off the street who plays a decent game and now everyone wants to make out with Keim and Arians over it. Well, or at least send their sister into the closet with them.

 

[D-Dogg]

It is laughable that Levi Brown's play was defended by so many, right up until the trade, and a guy is signed off the street who plays a decent game and now everyone wants to make out with Keim and Arians over it. Well, or at least send their sister into the closet with them.

I don't recall much defense of levi ever.

 

[ajcardfan]

I don't recall much defense of levi ever.

Either your short term memory is SHOT, or you were avoiding the Levi threads.

 

[D-Dogg]

Either your short term memory is SHOT, or you were avoiding the Levi threads.

I guess I blew right past the Levi threads.

 

[Hollywood]

I don't recall much defense of levi ever.

I will admit that I defended him until about 3 weeks ago. That was when I had had enough and turned.