The Reality of Josh McCown - and other musings . . .

[This_Guy]

In terms of game experience, McCown still is a rookie. He's just completed the first half of his rookie year. Compare that to the actual NFL game experience for the others that you mentioned. You combine this with the fact that the guy is on his third OC in as many years and that starts to explain why he's not as far along as guys like Harrington and Carr. Fact is, I don't know if McCown will ever be as good as Carr as Carr looks to be a pretty damn good player.

2 years of sitting around on the bench, going through the motions doesn't mean jack. Getting game experience does. McCown is doing that now and he's making progress.

No. You do not get a free pass and get to call this your rookie season. Even so, 3 TD passes and 1 win is not good for a rookie. And King is now on his 5th OC in 6 seasons, but he didn't have a problem picking up a new offense, so that excuse don't fly either.

Ouchie,

My take is continually discounted because I have an "agenda", but what you are seeing is exactly what I've been saying since pre-season. The arm, the size, the speed all mean nothing if you don't have the intangibles. If you look at the top QBs in the game, most of them have no athleticism and not much of an arm. Brady, Pennington, Gannon, Bulger, Hasselbeck and Trent Green have almost zero in the "potential" category. All they have is poise, accuracy, leadership and a winner's instinct, none of which McCown has shown to date.

The "athletic" QBs who do succeed, McNabb, Culpepper, Carr and Brooks had all shown more than potential by year 3.

 

[Russ Smith]

My take is continually discounted because I have an "agenda", but what you are seeing is exactly what I've been saying since pre-season. The arm, the size, the speed all mean nothing if you don't have the intangibles. If you look at the top QBs in the game, most of them have no athleticism and not much of an arm. Brady, Pennington, Gannon, Bulger, Hasselbeck and Trent Green have almost zero in the "potential" category. All they have is poise, accuracy, leadership and a winner's instinct, none of which McCown has shown to date.

.

Or to use my baseball analogy again. The Cards once drafted a kid name Paul Coleman in the first round, phenomenal athlete, built like Bo Jackson, bigtime RB recruit, awesome power, great arm, can't miss. 5 years later he was trying to convert to pitcher because he couldn't hit the curve or play defense or make contact much.

Athletic ability is far more important at WR, RB, CB, LB than it is at QB. QB is about seeing the field, understanding what everyone is doing, where everyone is, quickly.

We saw in the Olympics this year that a team of athletic stars can get whipped by team after team of inferior athletes who shoot better and play together(mens basketball). Josh is the US team right now, we need him to be more like ARgentina.

 

[conraddobler]

dude, per usual you're blowing this whole thing outta proportion. is he making? yes. is it slow progress? yes. i admit he's making progress, why can't you admit that he has yet to show the cajones necessary to lead a team?

I will admit that is Josh fails it will be because he isn't a good enough leader and thanks for at least admiting he's made progress.

My only beef at all was that the guy needs more time than some want to give him it's just a matter of opinion though.

 

[clif]

I have no idea what you are getting at. Doug Pederson has 12 years in the league but only 17 starts....does that mean he's a 2nd year player?

And I'm not sure how McCown's inability to break the starting line-up before his 3rd year is something that buys him even more time.

you know exactly what I'm talking about... you were trying to say that since Carr now in his 3rd year starting and Harrington in his 3rd year as the starter as well are making plays... WOW!! BIG SURPRISE THERE!!

my point is and has always been it is too early to tell. let the season play out and if he stinks then cut him... if he continues to improve (which is pretty obvious ) he will be around next year.

EDIT: what about Brees... how many years has he been the starter before he "got it"??

 

[pete]

3 games is all you get around here. By then, the experts have enough data to form their opinions.

 

[Russ Smith]

I will admit that is Josh fails it will be because he isn't a good enough leader and thanks for at least admiting he's made progress.

My only beef at all was that the guy needs more time than some want to give him it's just a matter of opinion though.

Fair enough for me, I just want to know how many games is enough time?
Clif says a whole season, do you?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

My take is continually discounted because I have an "agenda", but what you are seeing is exactly what I've been saying since pre-season. The arm, the size, the speed all mean nothing if you don't have the intangibles. If you look at the top QBs in the game, most of them have no athleticism and not much of an arm. Brady, Pennington, Gannon, Bulger, Hasselbeck and Trent Green have almost zero in the "potential" category. All they have is poise, accuracy, leadership and a winner's instinct, none of which McCown has shown to date.

Your credibility is discounted because you've been jocking Shaun King as better than McCown prior to you ever seeing McCown take a snap. In case you were wondering I do agree with you, I don't think McCown has what it takes to be a franchise QB.

 

[conraddobler]

Or to use my baseball analogy again. The Cards once drafted a kid name Paul Coleman in the first round, phenomenal athlete, built like Bo Jackson, bigtime RB recruit, awesome power, great arm, can't miss. 5 years later he was trying to convert to pitcher because he couldn't hit the curve or play defense or make contact much.

Athletic ability is far more important at WR, RB, CB, LB than it is at QB. QB is about seeing the field, understanding what everyone is doing, where everyone is, quickly.

We saw in the Olympics this year that a team of athletic stars can get whipped by team after team of inferior athletes who shoot better and play together(mens basketball). Josh is the US team right now, we need him to be more like ARgentina.

Jeff George the poster child for anti leader did well under Green and no where else.

Josh may or may not be able to lead the team but trying to decide that right now is too early that's all any of so called Josh apologists are saying.

I simply don't agree that you can tell what you are trying to tell right now because of other factors.

He did lead the team just fine last year against Minny Ha Ha and that stuff just dosen't go away more likely his head is spinning trying to apply a new system under live fire. He's made progress let's see where this goes because next year we can get a new QB if we have too.

DG had already made up his mind to gamble on Josh it's spilt milk to argue about it now he was going to take Fitz no matter what. He will admit his mistake and bring in someone to run the offense he isn't that worried about who because he builds systems that any decent QB can run.

DG is not going to let his ego thing stand in the way of what this team does next year I just don't see the urgency to worry about Josh everyone else does it will work itself out before next year when it really matters anyway.

 

[Pariah]

In case you were wondering I do agree with you, I don't think McCown has what it takes to be a franchise QB.

Here's the bigger problem--neither does King.

McCown still might. he certainly doesn't right now.

I think McCown might actaully benefit from spending a couple of games on the bench.

 

[SECTION 11]

I think McCown might actaully benefit from spending a couple of games on the bench.

:notworthy


Absolutely. I don't think he's playing horribly, but I think he can and should be playing better. I think he could learn a lot from watching somebody else run the offense, whether they do well or poorly.

 

[conraddobler]

Fair enough for me, I just want to know how many games is enough time?
Clif says a whole season, do you?

He gets as long as DG thinks he is headed in the right direction. Mistakes are fine if he is learning and not repeating them.

I would say this year is plenty long but if in say game 10 he regresses badly then bench him and see how King does.

I am not at all opposed to making Josh work his arse of for this. It's a judgement call DG needs to make based on all the factors if he thinks Josh is making progress and is happy with Josh then he will accept a few learning mistakes.

If he feels Josh is just not grasping it or repeating mistakes no matter how many times he is told then it's pine time.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Here's the bigger problem--neither does King.

I agree, that's why I'm on the Matt Leinart in '05 bandwagon.

 

[pete]

If any other QB is going to get reps this year, I hope it is Navarre and not King. This is a development year.

 

[CaptTurbo]

If any other QB is going to get reps this year, I hope it is Navarre and not King. This is a development year.

 

[Russ Smith]

He gets as long as DG thinks he is headed in the right direction. Mistakes are fine if he is learning and not repeating them.

I would say this year is plenty long but if in say game 10 he regresses badly then bench him and see how King does.

I am not at all opposed to making Josh work his arse of for this. It's a judgement call DG needs to make based on all the factors if he thinks Josh is making progress and is happy with Josh then he will accept a few learning mistakes.

If he feels Josh is just not grasping it or repeating mistakes no matter how many times he is told then it's pine time.

I can handle that.

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree, that's why I'm on the Matt Leinart in '05 bandwagon.

If we're going to draft a QB, please let it be Aaron Rodgers, did you see him against USC?

I'd be pretty surprised if we took a QB though, Green is like Shanahan he fully believes he can win with another QB without having to draft one really high.

 

[Rats]

so where does that leave me? i happen to be an avid football fan. i have watched the vikings through the years. seen how denny developed qb after qb. all w/o much growing pains. and i don't have a bias b/c i am not clamoring for king to start. but still i'm not seeing the balls and mental aspects of the game i need to see from josh. i agree, he is getting incrementally better, but dg's system is not set up for incremental improvement, it is meant to expedite that process. hence dg's insistence on not going after primier qb prospects often. you just have no answer for me other than to disparage me personally.

I really don't want to respond to you because Cheese will be two steps behind you saying " I'm the Wiz!!! An noooboooddyyy beats me" but how is 5 games enough to see if he has enough balls and mental apects of the game to succeed? And how is it that his first games he looks out of sync but in the last two has looked good in the pocket and throwing and reading defenses. This is only incremtal growth? It just tells me that you don't under stand impact positions in football and the way DG system utilizes these. He does not set guys up to fail in his system. He does expect them to play with in the system and they have to this season because they are undermanned. Work in progress means Work in progess...not no cajones after 5 games....Your agenda is to give cheese his opinions...and when he has an original thought.....like JOSH IS the ANSWER...to telll him what he really means....keep up the good fight ...it is noble work your doing out there...

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

If we're going to draft a QB, please let it be Aaron Rodgers, did you see him against USC?

I'd be pretty surprised if we took a QB though, Green is like Shanahan he fully believes he can win with another QB without having to draft one really high.

Green took Culpepper #12 overall. I wouldn't be disappointed with Rodgers. Like Leinart he seems to have all the intangibles that McCown lacks.

 

[Wild Card]

With McCown, he's more than 1 quarter of the way through the season and he hasn't done anything to suggest that he's a franchise-type player. He still has nothing more than he had before this season started---potential... And I'm not sure how McCown's inability to break the starting line-up before his 3rd year is something that buys him even more time.

T_G:

Clearly, the biggest problem with Josh McCown is that he's standing between Shaun King and his rightful place in the Pro Bowl, right? (Oh, and parenthetically, the Cardinals' chances for a winning season. I forgot.)

C'mon. McCown was never given a serious opportunity to compete for the starting job before this season. Not when bonus baby Jake Plummer was a fixture behind center, and not when FA Jeff Blake was brought in specifically to start. So the snide comment about McCown's supposed "inability" to earn the starting job earlier in his career doesn't hold up to any degree of scrutiny.

That said, Dennis Green thought he saw enough either in the film room or on the field to name McCown his starter early on, and he hasn't wavered since. And for a first-year starter, McCown hasn't played badly. Operating behind a reconstructed OL, that just had two out of five starters replaced last week, supported by an indifferent running game (19th in the league, at 105.6 ypg), and working without the team's best WR, he's still:

*been more accurate (60.3) than Matt Hasselbeck (60.0), Jake Delhomme (59.5), Trent Green (59.1) or Tom Brady (57.5)
*thrown for more yards (927) over five games than Jeff Garcia (836) or Michael Vick (801)
*had more yards-per-attempt (6.8) than Steve McNair (6.6), Byron Leftwich (6.4), or Joey Harrington (6.3)​

After five games, McCown's rated higher (78.9) than Trent Green (78.5), Michael Vick (77.7) or Jeff Garcia (70.1), let alone recent first-rounders like Kyle Boller (61.3) or Carson Palmer (58.8). Sure, he's still a work-in-progress. But Green's resume as an offensive guru spotlights both his ability to identify QB talent, and his willingness to upgrade the position at every opportunity. If Green didn't think that McCown was progressing, and/ or didn't have the ability to operate this offense effectively, he'd be on the bench. If Green thought that King would give the Cards a better chance to win games, he'd be in there.

Neither has happened yet. So, unless you're prepared to make a case that you know more than Dennis Green about QB play in the NFL, why not stop taking shots at McCown and wait--as you promised at least once before--for events to prove you right?

Or not.

WC

 

[CaptTurbo]

And how is it that his first games he looks out of sync but in the last two has looked good in the pocket and throwing and reading defenses. This is only incremtal growth? It just tells me that you don't under stand impact positions in football and the way DG system utilizes these.

I saw on sportscenter that when the red sox win the world series attendence will drop in half because some people just love the hope of winning. Not actually winning. Rats is definately a guy that falls into this category. He wants McClown to get all year so we can be 3-13 and continue the heartbreak.......

When we win he will probably go away so just ignore his banter ouchie.

 

[Rats]

I will admit that is Josh fails it will be because he isn't a good enough leader and thanks for at least admiting he's made progress.

My only beef at all was that the guy needs more time than some want to give him it's just a matter of opinion though.

I will also admit this.....Josh can either succeed in this environment or fail...more time is needed to evaluate...not....no balls after 5 starts in this system....which seems to be the opinion expressed here.

 

[Russ Smith]

I really don't want to respond to you because Cheese will be two steps behind you saying " I'm the Wiz!!! An noooboooddyyy beats me" but how is 5 games enough to see if he has enough balls and mental apects of the game to succeed? And how is it that his first games he looks out of sync but in the last two has looked good in the pocket and throwing and reading defenses. :

Well it could be the fact that New Orleans and SF had far worse defenses than Atlanta and New England.

 

[Russ Smith]

Green took Culpepper #12 overall. I wouldn't be disappointed with Rodgers. Like Leinart he seems to have all the intangibles that McCown lacks.

yeah but I think that was a special year, he had 2 picks.

 

[Rats]

I saw on sportscenter that when the red sox win the world series attendence will drop in half because some people just love the hope of winning. Not actually winning. Rats is definately a guy that falls into this category. He wants McClown to get all year so we can be 3-13 and continue the heartbreak.......

When we win he will probably go away so just ignore his banter ouchie.

Pal.....I'm a life long fan and at 38 I saw this team win in the 70's and 80's....This assumption that I will just go away if we win....is.....just laughable....your to much. If Ben were the QB...I would still want us to win every game...and while I have got more control over my emotions after losses than I have in the past...it still kills me everytime we lose....Winning is what it is all about....so don't predispose that you know what kind of fan I am.....I have been thru the Sunday war with this team my whole life...I have seen them and celebrated there winning. And I hope to do it still more this season.

 

[cardsunsfan]

What I've learned from this thread is no matter how wrong someone is if they're being called out they will almost never admit to being wrong.. I have to say, to me, Cheese, Russ, and Ouchie make the most sense to me and from their previous history on this board they are more right than wrong with their predictions which I can't say is true for a few others on this board....