The Reality of Josh McCown - and other musings . . .

[Tangodnzr]

Well Russ, I see you conveniently duck the issue that I brought up about your citing how great Pennington was BY THE END OF HIS 3rd YEAR, Yet you seem so stubbornly unwilling to give Josh the same consideration.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ, you seem to contrdict your own "take" here.

You cite how great Pennington's 3rd year was...by the time it was in the books.

Yet you and a few others seem unwilling to give Josh that same leeway.

I agree totally, if Josh has not proven to be the long term answer by the end of this year....THEN it will be time to figure out an alternative route to go with the QB.

But not until then. All the rest of this diss Josh crap is just that, and highly premature.

Do you really think Josh is going to have 19 td passes and 3 picks the rest of the season to equal Pennington's first year as the starter? Pennington was held under 200 yards passing in 3 games that year out of 12 starts, Josh has been under 200 in 5 of his 8 career starts.

And again Pennington showed right away he was ready, even if he didn't throw a ton of TD's in his first couple of starts he put up yardage, moved the ball, the team put up points and he improved the team.

What do you see that tells you josh is going to finish this year anywhere near the level Chad did in 2002?

 

[clif]

And why were they first round picks and Josh wasn't? Because they had scouts convinced they would be ready to start and win games MUCH quicker than Josh, and that has been proven true so far in their careers.

Nobody is saying if you give Josh 4 years with Green he might not become another Delhomme type player, I'm saying we don't have that much time to make a decision on him, not if we want to win in the interim. He needed to play so we could see what he had, based on what I've seen he's not ready to play.

Russ i dont have a problem with what you are saying... my problem is with people like swd1974 who claim josh is "dumb".... or this_guy who continually pimps king as the saviour... josh may not be ready, but I still think it is too early... check back with me after the season.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well Russ, I see you conveniently duck the issue that I brought up about your citing how great Pennington was BY THE END OF HIS 3rd YEAR, Yet you seem so stubbornly unwilling to give Josh the same consideration.

Sorry big thread just saw it and replied.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ i dont have a problem with what you are saying... my problem is with people like swd1974 who claim josh is "dumb".... or this_guy who continually pimps king as the saviour... josh may not be ready, but I still think it is too early... check back with me after the season.

That's my whole problem Clif. I don't want to junk this season to find out that Josh isn't ready. I admit it I am VERY tough on QB's I know what I look for and I tend to make quick decisions, and I change my mind too. Loved Vick in college, think he's as exciting a player as there is, think he's a horrible WCO QB who needs to get out of that system immediately before his reputation is ruined. Did you see where he said the other day maybe by year 10 or 11 he'll be ready to run it, talk about a damning comment.

I think Josh has the talent but he's nowhere near ready to apply it in games.

 

[pete]

McCown is getting his audition right now and Green was right to give him a chance. He's not going to step up and be Tom Brady at the end of every game. People are expecting too much from him. Fortunately, Green isn't as that is how you ruin a young QB. If he continues to play the way he did in SF, he will be fine. He is making progress and getting better. The lack of production at the end of the SF game was attributable to many factors. McCown's play was just one of them.

What I think is a joke is how people try to compare McCown or Fitz to other players after the other players have a couple good games. People did it last week by comparing Fitz with Williams, and now they are doing it this week by comparing McCown to Roethlisberger. So Williams and Roethelisberger had a few good games. Woopdidity Doo! Let's come back after all the players have a few seasons under their belts and then compare. Comparing players after a few games and saying "see, we should have done this or that" is a shortsighted joke.

 

[Pariah]

Let's come back after all the players have a few seasons under their belts and then compare.

RE: McCown vs. Roethlisberger--I'm comfortable with this. Very comfortable.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

A lot of criticism? No one criticized him except me. All I remember after the game was the mindless "Shawn King is the greatest QB in the whole wide world" crap spewed after the game or if anybody played but Josh our record would be 3-1.

I hate "what if" scenarios. There is absolutely no way they could be proven.



He has taken the team on his back but he hasn't done it this year yet. All I want is for him to get a fair chance as well as giving some of the credit to him when it is due. Thats all.

For some reason some people on here forget that there are 53 players on our active roster. Some of them have parts in our wins and our losses. Its NOT JUST THE QB.

Last I checked McCown wasn't the one played/called for the prevent defense that allowed the niners to get back in the game. But reading some of the posts on the board, you'd think he did.

They blamed every loss on McCown because he didn't lead the team to victory (even though it wasn't all his fault), but when we got a win absolutely none of the credit was given to him. Didn't he lead us to a win over the Saints?

I just ask for consistency in what people expect in the QB position. If its all about wins and losses, then give him blame in the losses and praise in the games. If its about stats then praise Josh when he has a good game and blame him when he doesn't. Its not rocket science.

Some people let their bias against McCown blind them in their assessment of the football team. They'll just blame everything on him and when he has a good game they'll go silent.

Personally I find that just plain sad

dude, you're way overgeneralizing. i don't blame everything on josh. i don't have biases against josh. i do give him credit for his growth. we're just talking about a single point, that he doesn't come up in clutch or pressure situations and that scares us. don't put other people's baggage on me. read what I wrote and respond to what I say, not what everyone is saying.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

supporting a fellow Seminole. .

king played for tulane. keep 'em coming.

 

[This_Guy]

What I think is a joke is how people try to compare McCown or Fitz to other players after the other players have a couple good games. People did it last week by comparing Fitz with Williams, and now they are doing it this week by comparing McCown to Roethlisberger. So Williams and Roethelisberger had a few good games. Woopdidity Doo!

Sorry, but that won't fly. 3 of the players in that discussion are rookies. McCown is in his third year. He is not a rookie.

David Carr and Joey Harrington are starting to make some real progress. And I don't mean progress as in "Hey, he looked competent for 3 quarters against the worst defense in the league". I mean, "Hey, David Carr threw for almost 400 yards and brought his team back from 3 TDs down to force overtime against one of the best teams in the league".

Carr, Harrington and Ramsey are all still "young" and "developing", but they aren't working on some of the basics of running an offense. That's rookie stuff.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Do you really think Josh is going to have 19 td passes and 3 picks the rest of the season to equal Pennington's first year as the starter? Pennington was held under 200 yards passing in 3 games that year out of 12 starts, Josh has been under 200 in 5 of his 8 career starts.

And again Pennington showed right away he was ready, even if he didn't throw a ton of TD's in his first couple of starts he put up yardage, moved the ball, the team put up points and he improved the team.

What do you see that tells you josh is going to finish this year anywhere near the level Chad did in 2002?

I don't know what Josh is going to do the rest of the season. Show me anyone that does.

The only reason I ever brought up Pennington is simply because....
of all the QB's drafted in recent history, he is the one that I feel was handled the "most properly", and is what I consider to be the present day "model" of how it should be done.

The thing that so many people seem to continually gloss over or overlook, is that you just can't separate out the individual from their circumstances. I have brought this up before.

Josh McCown is not Chad Pennington, or Bryan Leftwich, or Ben Rothlisberger, or ANYONE else.
He plays for the Cardinals. Different team, different set of circumstances from anyone else.

Again, use the Pennington/Jets situation.

Pennington was drafted in 2000 by Al Groh, who had been hired to replaced the "retiring" Bill Parcells. Bill Belichick also left for New England. The Jets, at that time were not exactly a doormat team.
That first year, as Pennington rode the pine, the Jets lost their last 3 games of the season to choke out of a playoff spot.

Groh surprised a lot of people by leaving to become HC at his old alma mater, Virginia.

Herman Edwards was then brought in. He hired Paul Hackett as OC, one of the more highly respected West Coast "guru's" and known as a QB developer to run the offense AND to oversee the development of Pennington, who seemed to have all the right tools for that system. Meanwhile Vinnie, Curtis Martin, and team-mates rolled along.

Pennington then "grew up" under that stable system, the Jets already a generally consistant "good" team. It certainly wasn't like they had the reputation of having no talent and a history of ineptitude to overcome.

Now look at Josh's history....a totally different set of circumstances.
Year one, Rich Olsen OC, Jake in the last year of his contract, and it wasn't until the end of the year that it became evident that Jake definitely wouldn't be back, and still be the "QB of the future" here.

Then last year, and the Sullivan debacle. The offense was a chinese fire drill in just about every imaginable aspect. Meanwhile Josh's "guru" is Geep Chryst.

Now, his 3rd year, he has a new head coach and staff. 3 years, 3 different OC's, and basic theorys.

Josh has had to come in to a team mired in failure, lack of talent in many areas, far from taking over the reins of an already fairly successful and consistant team.

Apples and Oranges in sooooo many ways.

As Rats has pointed out a couple of times, those who seem to be making the most noise about how "bad" or "stupid" or whatever else, are the same ones who have seemed to have made up their mind long ago that they "didn't like" Josh...for whatever reason. They just dig for what ever little scrap they can to diss him, in the name of THEIR AGENDA.

I mean some...like This Guy, it's blatently obvious Josh will never measure up to Shaun King, no matter what.

Just because a few biased posters here "don't like Josh" doesn't mean he's as bad as THEY claim. And it doesn't make those of us who say its still way premature to be even thinking of writing him off..... some clueless "Josh lover", or whatever their current taunt is.

 

[clif]

Sorry, but that won't fly. 3 of the players in that discussion are rookies. McCown is in his third year. He is not a rookie.

David Carr and Joey Harrington are starting to make some real progress. And I don't mean progress as in "Hey, he looked competent for 3 quarters against the worst defense in the league". I mean, "Hey, David Carr threw for almost 400 yards and brought his team back from 3 TDs down to force overtime against one of the best teams in the league".

Carr, Harrington and Ramsey are all still "young" and "developing", but they aren't working on some of the basics of running an offense. That's rookie stuff.

and carr harrington and ramsey (who is on the bench) are young and since they are making plays they are better than McCown? ..... Man I would hope so since 2 or the 3 you named are in AT LEAST their second full year as the starter.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

exception to the rule and you know that

right, 'cuz tim rattay is the next joe montana!!!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Boy you two are so desperate that you will grasp at any little straw you can.

My point still remains that Josh is just starting his 3rd year. He was considered an athletic "project" from the day he was drafted.

On normal NFL time scale, he's progressing as he would be expected to, especially given the circumstances he's been exposed to.

A whacko, a Shaun King groupie, and a few other biased board junkies posting to the contrary, Josh hasn't played nearly as bad as that little group of misfits keep insinuating.

dude, per usual you're blowing this whole thing outta proportion. is he making? yes. is it slow progress? yes. i admit he's making progress, why can't you admit that he has yet to show the cajones necessary to lead a team?

 

[Rats]

king played for tulane. keep 'em coming.

Keep pulling those strings puppetmaster clown....and maybe cheese won't disappoint you again with an origional thought .....I admit when I am wrong and I was about the "seminole" and told Russ so......

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Russ, now this I can agree with. An honest opinion without playing the blame game or spinning how Josh lost us the game on Sunday or at the very least didn't "Win" it with 59 secs to go. You are correct you only get so many chances at a Franchise guy. DG modis operindi is that he doesn't need these guys and there contracts to be a successful team in the NFL. Josh is not one of these guys but has the potential to be very a good QB in this system. He is progressing and for those to say that they believed DG would coach up the KId...but now are saying they aren't seeing it after 5 games ....well they just don't understand the QB position in this system or as I contend they are biased because there choice isn't under center on Sunday so they pile on.

so where does that leave me? i happen to be an avid football fan. i have watched the vikings through the years. seen how denny developed qb after qb. all w/o much growing pains. and i don't have a bias b/c i am not clamoring for king to start. but still i'm not seeing the balls and mental aspects of the game i need to see from josh. i agree, he is getting incrementally better, but dg's system is not set up for incremental improvement, it is meant to expedite that process. hence dg's insistence on not going after primier qb prospects often. you just have no answer for me other than to disparage me personally.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well Russ, I see you conveniently duck the issue that I brought up about your citing how great Pennington was BY THE END OF HIS 3rd YEAR, Yet you seem so stubbornly unwilling to give Josh the same consideration.

did you not read the post about how pennington excelled in his first five games as well?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't know what Josh is going to do the rest of the season. Show me anyone that does.

The only reason I ever brought up Pennington is simply because....
of all the QB's drafted in recent history, he is the one that I feel was handled the "most properly", and is what I consider to be the present day "model" of how it should be done.

The thing that so many people seem to continually gloss over or overlook, is that you just can't separate out the individual from their circumstances. I have brought this up before.

Josh McCown is not Chad Pennington, or Bryan Leftwich, or Ben Rothlisberger, or ANYONE else.
He plays for the Cardinals. Different team, different set of circumstances from anyone else.

Again, use the Pennington/Jets situation.

Pennington was drafted in 2000 by Al Groh, who had been hired to replaced the "retiring" Bill Parcells. Bill Belichick also left for New England. The Jets, at that time were not exactly a doormat team.
That first year, as Pennington rode the pine, the Jets lost their last 3 games of the season to choke out of a playoff spot.

Groh surprised a lot of people by leaving to become HC at his old alma mater, Virginia.

Herman Edwards was then brought in. He hired Paul Hackett as OC, one of the more highly respected West Coast "guru's" and known as a QB developer to run the offense AND to oversee the development of Pennington, who seemed to have all the right tools for that system. Meanwhile Vinnie, Curtis Martin, and team-mates rolled along.

Pennington then "grew up" under that stable system, the Jets already a generally consistant "good" team. It certainly wasn't like they had the reputation of having no talent and a history of ineptitude to overcome.

Now look at Josh's history....a totally different set of circumstances.
Year one, Rich Olsen OC, Jake in the last year of his contract, and it wasn't until the end of the year that it became evident that Jake definitely wouldn't be back, and still be the "QB of the future" here.

Then last year, and the Sullivan debacle. The offense was a chinese fire drill in just about every imaginable aspect. Meanwhile Josh's "guru" is Geep Chryst.

Now, his 3rd year, he has a new head coach and staff. 3 years, 3 different OC's, and basic theorys.

Josh has had to come in to a team mired in failure, lack of talent in many areas, far from taking over the reins of an already fairly successful and consistant team.

Apples and Oranges in sooooo many ways.

As Rats has pointed out a couple of times, those who seem to be making the most noise about how "bad" or "stupid" or whatever else, are the same ones who have seemed to have made up their mind long ago that they "didn't like" Josh...for whatever reason. They just dig for what ever little scrap they can to diss him, in the name of THEIR AGENDA.

I mean some...like This Guy, it's blatently obvious Josh will never measure up to Shaun King, no matter what.

Just because a few biased posters here "don't like Josh" doesn't mean he's as bad as THEY claim. And it doesn't make those of us who say its still way premature to be even thinking of writing him off..... some clueless "Josh lover", or whatever their current taunt is.

and again i'll repeat myself (w/ no one answering still i'm certain), what about me? i have NO agenda. i do not hate josh. i am not clamoring for him to be replaced. i am not looking for scraps to deride him. i think he's had some growth. but in the end, from what we've seen through 8 games, i just don't see the pocket awareness (i.e., feeling the blitz, sliding around to buy time, etc.) or the reads (one and done seems relatively evident thus far) of a GOOD football mind. add that to the fact that he has yet to show mental toughness at the end of a game (other than the minny game - i'll give him one of 7 games - have to discount the saints game as his mental toughness wasn't necessary), and it worries me. do i think he's the devil? no. but it worries me enough to question if he's got what it takes. that's all. that's all i'm saying. don't make it more than that.

 

[pete]

Sorry, but that won't fly. 3 of the players in that discussion are rookies. McCown is in his third year. He is not a rookie.

David Carr and Joey Harrington are starting to make some real progress. And I don't mean progress as in "Hey, he looked competent for 3 quarters against the worst defense in the league". I mean, "Hey, David Carr threw for almost 400 yards and brought his team back from 3 TDs down to force overtime against one of the best teams in the league".

Carr, Harrington and Ramsey are all still "young" and "developing", but they aren't working on some of the basics of running an offense. That's rookie stuff.

In terms of game experience, McCown still is a rookie. He's just completed the first half of his rookie year. Compare that to the actual NFL game experience for the others that you mentioned. You combine this with the fact that the guy is on his third OC in as many years and that starts to explain why he's not as far along as guys like Harrington and Carr. Fact is, I don't know if McCown will ever be as good as Carr as Carr looks to be a pretty damn good player.

2 years of sitting around on the bench, going through the motions doesn't mean jack. Getting game experience does. McCown is doing that now and he's making progress.

 

[This_Guy]

Tango,

You continue to compare the situations between McCown and Pennington, and it continues to drive home the point about how slow McCown's development has been.

Both spent most of their first 2 years on the bench, both became the full-time starter in year 3. Pennington came out like gangbusters and completely turned the team around. They knew within weeks that they were going to build their franchise around him.

With McCown, he's more than 1 quarter of the way through the season and he hasn't done anything to suggest that he's a franchise-type player. He still has nothing more than he had before this season started---potential.

As they say, "potential gets coaches fired" and "Ryan Leaf had loads of potential".

and carr harrington and ramsey (who is on the bench) are young and since they are making plays they are better than McCown? ..... Man I would hope so since 2 or the 3 you named are in AT LEAST their second full year as the starter.

I have no idea what you are getting at. Doug Pederson has 12 years in the league but only 17 starts....does that mean he's a 2nd year player?

And I'm not sure how McCown's inability to break the starting line-up before his 3rd year is something that buys him even more time.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Just because a few biased posters here "don't like Josh" doesn't mean he's as bad as THEY claim. And it doesn't make those of us who say its still way premature to be even thinking of writing him off..... some clueless "Josh lover", or whatever their current taunt is.

Typical tango they are wrong I am right.

How about this. Josh isnt as bad as some claim. Neither is he as good as some claim. That would be the fair way to phrase that. But you never have admitted to being wrong have you?

 

[Russ Smith]

Just because a few biased posters here "don't like Josh" doesn't mean he's as bad as THEY claim. And it doesn't make those of us who say its still way premature to be even thinking of writing him off..... some clueless "Josh lover", or whatever their current taunt is.

I concede that Josh' first 2 years were "inferior" to Pennington in terms of development.

But think there's a reason josh has had the career he's had to date, I think he lacks certain things, confidence in himself being one of them. I think that is evident to players and coaches, and I think it influences how THEY feel about JOsh. I saw Faneca on TV talking about Ben, the same guy who said he "wasn't thrilled" when he found out a rookie was starting due to injury. Faneca said basically yeah he's young, he makes mistakes, but I have so much more confidence in him than I did originally this kid is so much more poised in the pocket and knows the plays so much better than I thought he would.

I don't dislike Josh, I distrust him. Josh is the kid you grew up with who could outrun and outjump you but if you bet him a buck on a game of horse, you could beat him everytime because you could rattle him and he'd choke. That's my perception of him, as expectations go up, his play goes down.

That's my opinion , if we keep losing games, pressure will let off and josh will start to play a bit better, and everyone will be fooled into committing to him again only to find out later in the big games he can't handle it.

 

[CaptTurbo]

2 years of sitting around on the bench, going through the motions doesn't mean jack. Getting game experience does. McCown is doing that now and he's making progress.

So whats the point in having rookies sit? Thats what everyone says your supposed to do. Now with Josh it doesnt work so you clamor that you need to start right away because you get nothing from sitting? LOL the excuses they come up with to defend McClown.

 

[pete]

So whats the point in having rookies sit? Thats what everyone says your supposed to do. Now with Josh it doesnt work so you clamor that you need to start right away because you get nothing from sitting? LOL the excuses they come up with to defend McClown.

Nope, that wasn't really my point at all. Maybe you should re-read what I said.

 

[Russ Smith]

In terms of game experience, McCown still is a rookie. He's just completed the first half of his rookie year. Compare that to the actual NFL game experience for the others that you mentioned. You combine this with the fact that the guy is on his third OC in as many years and that starts to explain why he's not as far along as guys like Harrington and Carr. Fact is, I don't know if McCown will ever be as good as Carr as Carr looks to be a pretty damn good player.

2 years of sitting around on the bench, going through the motions doesn't mean jack. Getting game experience does. McCown is doing that now and he's making progress.

He had 8 times the experience his first 2 years that Pennington did!!!!

The reason Josh looks so young when he plays is he barely played in college. Couldn't hold down the job at SMU, they junked their passing offense for a running one, he transferred and finally had a good year at Sam Houston State. Most good rookie QB's come in far more advanced than Josh was.

His first 2 years, not the best coaching, by all accounts, nobody is denying that. But to say he's still a rookie is disingenuous he's had 3 FULL NFL training camps, 12 preseason games, he has now thrown 320 passes in the NFL, he's in no way a rookie anymore.