The Reality of Josh McCown - and other musings . . .

[Cheesebeef]

wishy-washy, flip-flop, flip-flop.

I told you you were acting like a Bushie!

Tango - in all seriousness - I may have flown off the handle a little earlier and I apologize for that - but I do think this is a good discussion and I really do wonder though what your thoughts are as far as the inability to win clsoe games - no matter they be defensive dragouts or high scoring affairs.

This team actually reminds me a lot of the 1997 team that started the season with all those heartbreaking losses and an 1-8 record - that team went to the playoffs the next year, but that's what this team is reminding me of.

 

[HeavyB3]

We had a quarterback that threw for 3 touchdowns and 1 interception. We ran for another. We scored 28 points. THAT SHOULD BE ENOUGH FOR ANY OTHER TEAM TO WIN!

McCown isn't perfect, but he lead the offense to 28 points. The defense and special teams allowed 31. Thats why we lost. Our "awesome" defense let us down. They were humbled. It sucks.

 

[Tangodnzr]

I told you you were acting like a Bushie!

Tango - in all seriousness - I may have flown off the handle a little earlier and I apologize for that - but I do think this is a good discussion and I really do wonder though what your thoughts are as far as the inability to win clsoe games - no matter they be defensive dragouts or high scoring affairs.

This team actually reminds me a lot of the 1997 team that started the season with all those heartbreaking losses and an 1-8 record - that team went to the playoffs the next year, but that's what this team is reminding me of.

Just off the top of my head, I'd be inclined to say that there are a NUMBER of reasons for that.
Josh's inexperience is but only one.

Also are such things as:
The youth of the entire team.
New coach, new players, new system.
This offensive unit still hasn't played together enough to expect them to be "Patriot-like". That takes time and experience together as a unit.
My god, this is only the 2nd week playing and first starting for 2 of the offensive linemen, which I still am not so sure Green has right yet anyway.
Injuries, especially to the WR corps.
I'm not totally sold on the all of the play calling yet either.
..among other things.

So, as usual, the tendancy to over simplify and "feel good" about picking a certain individual to point the finger at and place the convenient "blame" on, I just don't consider very valid.
Yes, that's the easy thing to do, but that doesn't make it right.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Well #1 I cant remember any prediction or profile of a player Tango was right about off the top of my head. McClown is a long line of blind fanatacism on his part. He wont be the starting QB next year. Bank on it.

 

[Paso Fino]

Hoever much Tango may rant and rave, the facts are that McCown is not and never will be a top flight quarterback and that Emmet Smith should retire. The Cardinals were playing what was considered to be the absolute worst team in the NFL with incredibly weak offenses and defenses. They even lost their best defensive player during the game. A decent quarterback with a decent running back would have decimated the 49ers.

 

[Shane]

Crimson - you're missing my point. I think Josh played pretty well today. He actually made some hot reads - the pass to Jones for the TD was the perfect play - not a great pass - but the right pass. He also put the ball up in the air for Fitz and he did make a nice play on the TD from the two yard line - no doubt.

However - I think that learning all the above is just as important as leadership from the QB and that we just aren't seeing at the end of games. He's not learning that part yet and to me - it's a HUGE part of being the QB.

I am not calling for his benching - no where in any post tonight have I called for that. I'm just pointing out my very grave concerns about an intangible that I think is just as important as all the things you mentioned above. This is a board to talk about the Cards and everything they do - so I'm voicing my opinion - that's all.

Cheese it sounds like you want a guy that looked like McCown the first three Qtrs but plays like Plummer in the last half of the 4th?????

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese it sounds like you want a guy that looked like McCown the first three Qtrs but plays like Plummer in the last half of the 4th?????

you're right - that's the problem. Although Shane - it's not like McCown has been playing all year like he did in the first three quarters today.

I just sat there when we got the ball back at the 40 with a minute left and kept saying FINISH THE GAME JOSH - FINISH THE GAME - and I was let down again. You have to see that Blitz coming and not take an 8 yard sack on 2nd and 1 at the 49. Then on third - he almost got picked. Not a strong finish - for the fourth game in a row when close.

JUst really frustrated - hell - with 7 minutes left I turned to Ouchie and said people were gonna have to make crap up to be upset about after this game. The entire team went in the tank once they went up 16 - you could see it on the sidelines - everyone was WAYYYYY too relaxed and that bugged the crap out of me.

 

[Shane]

you're right - that's the problem. Although Shane - it's not like McCown has been playing all year like he did in the first three quarters today.

I just sat there when we got the ball back at the 40 with a minute left and kept saying FINISH THE GAME JOSH - FINISH THE GAME - and I was let down again. You have to see that Blitz coming and not take an 8 yard sack on 2nd and 1 at the 49. Then on third - he almost got picked. Not a strong finish - for the fourth game in a row when close.

JUst really frustrated - hell - with 7 minutes left I turned to Ouchie and said people were gonna have to make crap up to be upset about after this game. The entire team went in the tank once they went up 16 - you could see it on the sidelines - everyone was WAYYYYY too relaxed and that bugged the crap out of me.

I agree about the near INT but that blitz that came on the sack was in the backfield before you could almost blink. Not much Josh could do other than intentional grounding which would have been even worse.

I agree he didnt produce on tha lst drive, but he did improve today. He was doing things he hadent dont the previous three weeks.

I predicted the OT. Imagine that!

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39440

 

[Tangodnzr]

Well #1 I cant remember any prediction or profile of a player Tango was right about off the top of my head. McClown is a long line of blind fanatacism on his part. He wont be the starting QB next year. Bank on it.

Well of course you don't "remember"....you have no desire to.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Hoever much Tango may rant and rave, the facts are that McCown is not and never will be a top flight quarterback and that Emmet Smith should retire. The Cardinals were playing what was considered to be the absolute worst team in the NFL with incredibly weak offenses and defenses. They even lost their best defensive player during the game. A decent quarterback with a decent running back would have decimated the 49ers.

Well, I hope that with experience, your performance will improve also, there fine stepper.

I'd be curious to know where you accessed the "FACT??": "the facts are that McCown is not and never will be a top flight quarterback"

What divine knowledge do you possess that I, or others, may be lacking???

I'd also be interested to know what your "other" name is here, that you normally use.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree about the near INT but that blitz that came on the sack was in the backfield before you could almost blink. Not much Josh could do other than intentional grounding which would have been even worse.

I agree he didnt produce on tha lst drive, but he did improve today. He was doing things he hadent dont the previous three weeks.

I predicted the OT. Imagine that!

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39440

he did improve today - I really just wanted him to finish it and rally the troops. Man that game was a killer!

But - the future is still brighter than I ever remember it being. Everyone on the D-line is young except for Berry(and he's in his prime) - the LBs are all young - except for Ronnie Mac and the secondary is relatively young - although I'd like to see us pursue another cover corner next offseason - best thing is that most of them are locked up for three or more years.

Sam goes with the offense which is awesome - This O-line will put it together and they're gonna signed for years. Fitz is an absolute stud - signed for years as is Boldin - they are one stud Running Back and a good QB (I hope it's JOsh - that would be one less position to have to worry about) away from really I think lighting up the scorboard for years. Now I know a lot of people will say - oh - only a QB and a RB away - but this team will be set up to get both if they need to next year.

Bottom line - I was getting greedy - I always knew this was going to be a building year, but I was actually misguidedly starting to think Playoffs in the distance. Hell, at 28-12 - I bet everyone was starting to think really stupid thoughts (even the players). So I'll take this crushing loss and realize it's just another step . . . not a big one - but not as much of a disaster as it felt like right afterwards.

I mean when was the last time we scored 8 TDs in two games - AGAINST ANYONE? So - progress with a lot of frustration thrown in overall.

 

[Evil Ash]

Here's the real truth about the game...

Josh McCown didn't lead the defense or special teams units. You know the very reason we lost today or is everyone forgetting that our great D gave up 19 unanswered points in the 4th qtr and OT.

Bottom line 28 points should be enough to win a game, especially against one of the worst offenses in the league.

If people want to blame Josh McCown for this loss, I really don't see the logic but hey to each his own I guess.

 

[cardpa]

My question is why in the hell were the cards throwing on second and one at midfield and you are trying to chew the clock up. Put Hambrick in and try to at least bust one yard up field. That and the fact that if he gets past the blitz its a big yardage play and you are now fairly deep into niner territory.

 

[Russ Smith]

Here's the real truth about the game...

Josh McCown didn't lead the defense or special teams units. You know the very reason we lost today or is everyone forgetting that our great D gave up 19 unanswered points in the 4th qtr and OT.

Bottom line 28 points should be enough to win a game, especially against one of the worst offenses in the league.

If people want to blame Josh McCown for this loss, I really don't see the logic but hey to each his own I guess.

I don't think anybody is blaming him, but remember how weak the defense Josh was facing was, you take into account the weak offense SF has, but gloss over the D Josh was facing. We should have had 40+ in that game, we didn't largely because IMHO the coaches were afraid to unleash Josh and attack the obviously weak pass defense.

 

[CardNots]

Cheesebeef,
I'm with ya mostly on your assessment of Josh. He does seem to crumble.

But, I'm wondering why the coaches didn't go vertical. Seems to me the play calling became to conservative at a time when we should have kicked them when they were down.

It also seems like the other team knows what to run, inorder too get Josh to check down to a lesser play.

I'm not sure why we don't continue to hurl the ball towards Fitz regardless. Send him down field and throw the ball...

 

[Russ Smith]

Cheesebeef,
I'm with ya mostly on your assessment of Josh. He does seem to crumble.

But, I'm wondering why the coaches didn't go vertical. Seems to me the play calling became to conservative at a time when we should have kicked them when they were down.

It also seems like the other team knows what to run, inorder to get Josh to check down to a lesser play.

I'm not sure why we don't continue to hurl the ball towards Fitz regardless. Send him down field and throw the ball...

I am convinced it's a lack of trust from the coaches of Josh.

Even yesterday with the 3 TD's and some smart throw the ball away moves, he throws a pick where it appeared he tried to stop the throw, nearly hits his C in the head. The DE that deflected it jumped, and then reached DOWN to tip it. THen on the last drive of regulation he hits the DB in the hands.

For my money it appeared that Josh was told most of the day make the first read, if he's open throw it, if not run or throw it away. There were a handful of plays all day where I could clearly see Josh going through reads, on most plays it was one option only, that just shows a lack of confidence in him by the coaches IMHO.

 

[pete]

I thought MCown had his best game of the season, so far. He did his job much better than the D and ST did theirs.

 

[john h]

Well I think you're mostly right but you can't say McCown shys away from adversity like you mentioned... how about last year? Everybody thought we were going to draft a qb and then he goes out and beats Mini on the last play of the game! I thought that took a lot of guts and I don't know (if I were a talented inexperienced qb) if I would have been able to calm down enough to do what he did in that game and I doubt many qb's in his situation would....

That one TD that Josh through last year to beat MN may be the worst thing to ever happen to us. Suddenly he is a hero and all his talent seems to be based on one TD. What had he done up to that point to make him the QB of the future. What has he done this year to make him the QB of the future. We are 1-4 and the QB has a lot to do with that anyway you cut it. He may turn out to be very good but so far he has not demonstrated the potential DG has talked about. If we can't win with him then at some point I say DG has to make a change. I think I said at the start of the season he would be on the bench by game 7. I still could be right unless DG is hard headed and since he heaped all this praise on him refuses to admitt he may be wrong.

 

[Rats]

That one TD that Josh through last year to beat MN may be the worst thing to ever happen to us. Suddenly he is a hero and all his talent seems to be based on one TD. What had he done up to that point to make him the QB of the future. What has he done this year to make him the QB of the future. We are 1-4 and the QB has a lot to do with that anyway you cut it. He may turn out to be very good but so far he has not demonstrated the potential DG has talked about. If we can't win with him then at some point I say DG has to make a change. I think I said at the start of the season he would be on the bench by game 7. I still could be right unless DG is hard headed and since he heaped all this praise on him refuses to admitt he may be wrong.

The only ones blasting the QB play of Josh McCown are the same ones that have blasted Josh consistantly ever since Draft day or the day Green named him our starter. It is a huge stretch on anyones part to say that after Josh put up 28 pts yesterday and managed the game late into the 4th qt that he is to blame for this crushing defeat. What people will say and do to support there position is the ultimate of spin. Josh didn't get a late drive for a score and failed to get a 1st down to ice the game but he also didn't put us down by 21 right out of the gate and he didn't Turnover the ball all day. Is he the perfect QB? No. Does he have great potential? Yes. Is he DG QB for the foreseable future? Yes. Work in progress means Work in progress not We have arrived. Up by 16 we all thought we had arrived myself included. The D wore down and gave the game away. I bet they will all see it that way. We should to.

 

[AZCB34]

you're right - that's the problem. Although Shane - it's not like McCown has been playing all year like he did in the first three quarters today.

I just sat there when we got the ball back at the 40 with a minute left and kept saying FINISH THE GAME JOSH - FINISH THE GAME - and I was let down again. You have to see that Blitz coming and not take an 8 yard sack on 2nd and 1 at the 49. Then on third - he almost got picked. Not a strong finish - for the fourth game in a row when close.

JUst really frustrated - hell - with 7 minutes left I turned to Ouchie and said people were gonna have to make crap up to be upset about after this game. The entire team went in the tank once they went up 16 - you could see it on the sidelines - everyone was WAYYYYY too relaxed and that bugged the crap out of me.

So it is Josh's fault? Doesn;t he run the plays called from the sidelines?

Cheesie, I really am confused by this thread because in a game context, Josh did everything he was supposed to to help the team win. You picking a couple of plays late is petty IMO only because it was a total collapse of the defense (well actually it was the defense playing at their actual talent level...finally exposed as over-achieving for the first 4 games) and some strange play calling offensively in the 4th Q that was the REAL culprit for this loss. I see very little calling out of Green, Wood and Pendergast for the BS yesterday. Maybe Green/Wood/Hargrave should be held accountable for the weak play calling in the 4th Q?

I think it is amazing Josh is basically being blamed across this board when he did exactly what every fan hopes from their QB in a 4 quarter big picture. Did he makes some mistakes? Of course but the single him out like he has been on this board is pathetic.

Cheese, one thing I agree whole-heartedly with you on is you could tell alot of the team went onto cruise control in the 4th thinking it was in the bag. For a team that hasn;t won alot, this is a valuable lesson about playing the entire game and never taking any opponent for granted. They now have a case study to learn from in how to close out the game

 

[Russ Smith]

I think it is amazing Josh is basically being blamed across this board when he did exactly what every fan hopes from their QB in a 4 quarter big picture. Did he makes some mistakes? Of course but the single him out like he has been on this board is pathetic.

My point is I think the "questionable play calling" is a direct result of coaches not trusting Josh. I think if King were in there, or Blake, or hell Jake Plummer, Green would have been throwing everything including the kitchen sink at them and we'd have had 28 in the first half and blown them off the field.

And yes it's not fair to pick on one play, but if Josh doesn't take that sack on 2nd and 1 because he didn't apparently see a blitz when they had what 18 guys on the line, we probably get the first down and win the game. I'm with Cheese, when the game is on the line and you need a play, he's 0-4 this year.

I would bet the house if Green had it to do over again he wouldn't give Josh the job without a competition.

 

[AZCB34]

You have to see that Blitz coming and not take an 8 yard sack on 2nd and 1 at the 49. Then on third - he almost got picked. Not a strong finish - for the fourth game in a row when close.

One other question. Is a pass play on 2nd and 1, late in the game when you are protecting your lead and trying to put the Niners away, really a smart play call? I say, no you run the damn ball twice for that one lousy stinking yard and eat up more time.

But I know we don't want to place any blame on our coaches...unless Josh is calling his own plays now ala Terry Bradshaw

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I am convinced it's a lack of trust from the coaches of Josh.

Even yesterday with the 3 TD's and some smart throw the ball away moves, he throws a pick where it appeared he tried to stop the throw, nearly hits his C in the head. The DE that deflected it jumped, and then reached DOWN to tip it. THen on the last drive of regulation he hits the DB in the hands.

For my money it appeared that Josh was told most of the day make the first read, if he's open throw it, if not run or throw it away. There were a handful of plays all day where I could clearly see Josh going through reads, on most plays it was one option only, that just shows a lack of confidence in him by the coaches IMHO.

Russ, you say "lack of confidence in..."

I'm more inclined to see the Coaches attempting to "build confidence in...."

If... this wasn't the case... the approach... he'd be on the bench.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One other question. Is a pass play on 2nd and 1, late in the game when you are protecting your lead and trying to put the Niners away, really a smart play call? I say, no you run the damn ball twice for that one lousy stinking yard and eat up more time.

But I know we don't want to place any blame on our coaches...unless Josh is calling his own plays now ala Terry Bradshaw

A pass play - with no timeouts and 30 seconds left when you are tied is the ONLY play you call at the 50 yard line when you're trying to score to win the game. What kind of question is that Cubby?

 

[AZCB34]

A pass play - with no timeouts and 30 seconds left when you are tied is the ONLY play you call at the 50 yard line when you're trying to score to win the game. What kind of question is that Cubby?

Actually, good point and I forgot just how late in the game it occurred. After just watching a replay of it it was much later than I thought. My bad. Continue on with your Josh hating. I thought the play occurred with more time on the clock than that.