The Reality of Josh McCown - and other musings . . .

[CaptTurbo]

What I've learned from this thread is no matter how wrong someone is if they're being called out they will almost never admit to being wrong.. I have to say, to me, Cheese, Russ, and Ouchie make the most sense to me and from their previous history on this board they are more right than wrong with their predictions which I can't say is true for a few others on this board....

Thanks scf. Im leading the anti McClown group with russ, cheese and ouchie and you leaveme out

 

[CaptTurbo]

And I hope to do it still more this season.

Well than this is an oxymoron. You want to celebrate more this season but you want McClown in. thats like Military Intelligence. Just cant happen.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I can't say they are as anti McCown as you are SW1974..just a little less optomistic at his chances than others on this board....

 

[Rats]

Thanks scf. Im leading the anti McClown group with russ, cheese and ouchie and you leaveme out

All we need is one pin......Rodney ....no respect I tell ya...no respect.

 

[Russ Smith]

I can't say they are as anti McCown as you are SW1974..just a little less optomistic at his chances than others on this board....

Nothing would make me happier than Josh being the next Favre,Culpepper, even Brooks, all guys we've seen him compared to this year.

But my gut tells me he doesn't have that in him, he's got the athletic ability, not the rest.

 

[Pariah]

Nothing would make me happier than Josh being the next Favre,Culpepper, even Brooks, all guys we've seen him compared to this year.

But my gut tells me he doesn't have that in him, he's got the athletic ability, not the rest.

My hopes and fears exactly.

 

[This_Guy]

Your credibility is discounted because you've been jocking Shaun King as better than McCown prior to you ever seeing McCown take a snap. In case you were wondering I do agree with you, I don't think McCown has what it takes to be a franchise QB.

Not so.

Feel free to check the archives.

I said that I saw McCown at the end of last season, and that he would have to improve considerably over the offseason for me to think he would be the better QB on opening day, since I knew that King was better than everyone thought. I also said that while I had seen nothing that I liked about McCown, that Green was an excellent judge of talent and that I would give him the benefit of the doubt on it.

I assure you that's what I said.

As far as judging someone who hasn't taken a snap, I'd argue that everyone here is doing the same to King. You claim that you don't know about McCown in 8 starts but NO ONE here has seen King play a game in 3 years. So how do you make that judgement?

 

[Rats]

Well it could be the fact that New Orleans and SF had far worse defenses than Atlanta and New England.

So what your saying is that had we had an easier schedule Josh would be ahead of his learning curve but since he faced two really good defenses he is failing? Could it be possibly that he didn't give the game away against the tougher opponents and did enough to win against the weaker teams? We have been in every game this year. Last years QB even with Q couldn't keep us in the games. This year DG and his coaches are keeping us in games even though we are undermanned. The Qb is getting the needed reps to show if he can get it done. He has not lost us ballgames. He is progressing.

 

[This_Guy]

T_G:

Clearly, the biggest problem with Josh McCown is that he's standing between Shaun King and his rightful place in the Pro Bowl, right? (Oh, and parenthetically, the Cardinals' chances for a winning season. I forgot.) No. An intelligent person can keep two competing thoughts seperate in his own head. While I do believe King is much better than everyone else does, it has nothing to do with my analysis of McCown. In both cases, I think the facts speak very clearly for themselves.

C'mon. McCown was never given a serious opportunity to compete for the starting job before this season. Not when bonus baby Jake Plummer was a fixture behind center, and not when FA Jeff Blake was brought in specifically to start. So the snide comment about McCown's supposed "inability" to earn the starting job earlier in his career doesn't hold up to any degree of scrutiny.

I'm not sure why that only applies to McCown? King hasn't been given a fair shot to win a job in 4 years now, but you sure want to hold that against him. And if that's the case, you should note that McCown did not win this job, it was handed to him. And if there were an open audition, there's zero chance he would have won it, even over King who according to most here is a band-aid/retread

That said, Dennis Green thought he saw enough either in the film room or on the field to name McCown his starter early on, and he hasn't wavered since. And for a first-year starter, McCown hasn't played badly. Operating behind a reconstructed OL, that just had two out of five starters replaced last week, supported by an indifferent running game (19th in the league, at 105.6 ypg), and working without the team's best WR, he's still:Your insistence that McCown hasn't played badly is just ridiculous. Belicheck "felt sorry" for him, TV commentators said he looked "JV" and "not ready to play at this level", Patrick Kerney said he looked "glassy eyed". The Cardinals passing offense is ranked near the bottom of the league, when DG has made this system work with castoffs many times.

*been more accurate (60.3) than Matt Hasselbeck (60.0), Jake Delhomme (59.5), Trent Green (59.1) or Tom Brady (57.5)
*thrown for more yards (927) over five games than Jeff Garcia (836) or Michael Vick (801)
*had more yards-per-attempt (6.8) than Steve McNair (6.6), Byron Leftwich (6.4), or Joey Harrington (6.3)​

After five games, McCown's rated higher (78.9) than Trent Green (78.5), Michael Vick (77.7) or Jeff Garcia (70.1), let alone recent first-rounders like Kyle Boller (61.3) or Carson Palmer (58.8). That's great and all, but do you really think any coach/GM in the NFL would rather have McCown than any one of those QBs listed? I want some of whatever you are smoking if you do. As far as I'm concerned, the only statistics that matter are 1-4 and 3 TDs Sure, he's still a work-in-progress. But Green's resume as an offensive guru spotlights both his ability to identify QB talent, and his willingness to upgrade the position at every opportunity. If Green didn't think that McCown was progressing, and/ or didn't have the ability to operate this offense effectively, he'd be on the bench. If Green thought that King would give the Cards a better chance to win games, he'd be in there.

Neither has happened yet. So, unless you're prepared to make a case that you know more than Dennis Green about QB play in the NFL, why not stop taking shots at McCown and wait--as you promised at least once before--for events to prove you right?

Or not.
I've said many times that at some point, for injury or otherwise, King will play and we WILL see if Iam right.
WC

x

 

[Russ Smith]

So what your saying is that had we had an easier schedule Josh would be ahead of his learning curve but since he faced two really good defenses he is failing? Could it be possibly that he didn't give the game away against the tougher opponents and did enough to win against the weaker teams? We have been in every game this year. Last years QB even with Q couldn't keep us in the games. This year DG and his coaches are keeping us in games even though we are undermanned. The Qb is getting the needed reps to show if he can get it done. He has not lost us ballgames. He is progressing.

he lost the Atlanta game, that's why he got yanked. And while blaming him for losing to NE would be silly, they're VERY good, he certainly did nothing to keep us in that game, the defense did.

the point is the "progress" you saw the last 2 weeks might have been progress, some of it was, but some of it was just going up against very poor defensive team that make most Qb's look better.

It's sort of like taking a kid who bombs out at a division 1 school, sending him to a lower level, he puts up big numbers, and you then declare he's progressed... oh wait that was McCown's college career.

 

[Rats]

he lost the Atlanta game, that's why he got yanked. And while blaming him for losing to NE would be silly, they're VERY good, he certainly did nothing to keep us in that game, the defense did.

the point is the "progress" you saw the last 2 weeks might have been progress, some of it was, but some of it was just going up against very poor defensive team that make most Qb's look better.

It's sort of like taking a kid who bombs out at a division 1 school, sending him to a lower level, he puts up big numbers, and you then declare he's progressed... oh wait that was McCown's college career.

Yeah we did lose the Atlanta game on the road....against a good defense. Josh did nothing in that game but turn the ball over....has he since? He has progressed and is learning. Will he make turnovers in the future. Yes....all QBs do. He is accountable and should be but he also has to be fairly criticed for what he has done in DG system....not Div II...blah blah blah.....

 

[Pariah]

Josh did nothing in that game but turn the ball over....has he since?

First of all, to say "has he since," that makes it sound like it was half a season ago. It was one game ago. And, yes, he did turn the ball over in the SF game.

 

[This_Guy]

First of all, to say "has he since," that makes it sound like it was half a season ago. It was one game ago. And, yes, he did turn the ball over in the SF game.

If that 3rd string CB holds on to that INT in the fourth quarter, McCown would have lost that game in regulation. And if he holds on to it I think the calls for McCown's benching would be rampant.

 

[Russ Smith]

If that 3rd string CB holds on to that INT in the fourth quarter, McCown would have lost that game in regulation. And if he holds on to it I think the calls for McCown's benching would be rampant.

hey don't sell him short. Joselio Hanson, rookie FA CB 5'9" from Texas Tech. Turns out that was his 2nd game, had never heard of him until I looked him up, didn't even know he was on the 49er roster.

He was quoted as saying he was actually out of position, confused the coverage, but he said he's always been taught to get depth to take away throwing lanes so that's all he was doing when Josh threw that ball.

 

[This_Guy]

hey don't sell him short. Joselio Hanson, rookie FA CB 5'9" from Texas Tech. Turns out that was his 2nd game, had never heard of him until I looked him up, didn't even know he was on the 49er roster.

He was quoted as saying he was actually out of position, confused the coverage, but he said he's always been taught to get depth to take away throwing lanes so that's all he was doing when Josh threw that ball.

Yes, lucky for Josh not every team has a Joselio Hanson!

 

[Wild Card]

As far as I'm concerned, the only statistics that matter are 1-4 and 3 TDs.

T_G:

Just remember that little pearl of wisdom, the next time you get the urge to tout Shaun King's statistics from his brief stint as a starter in Tampa Bay. Oh, and since a 1-4 record is such a devastating indictment of quarterbacking ability, I guess the following players oughta be looking for other lines of work:

Brett Favre
Drew Bledsoe
Trent Green
Carson Palmer
Mark Brunell
Tim Rattay
Jake Delhomme

I mean, none of 'em has more than one win this season. And that's solely their fault, since the players around them have nothing to do with their ability to win games, right?

As for this:

King hasn't been given a fair shot to win a job in 4 years now, but you sure want to hold that against him.

You mean, after he won the starting job in Tampa Bay, started for a season-plus, then lost the job once the coaching staff felt that they knew what he could--and couldn't--do? I know, it was all a plot on the part of the Bucs coaches, denying the starting job to an obviously superior quarterback because... because... well, just because.

I dunno what's funnier, your dogged loyalty to a journeyman backup QB, or your insistence that it doesn't color your evaluation of the guy starting ahead of him.

WC

 

[Crimson Warrior]

he lost the Atlanta game, that's why he got yanked. And while blaming him for losing to NE would be silly, they're VERY good, he certainly did nothing to keep us in that game, the defense did.

the point is the "progress" you saw the last 2 weeks might have been progress, some of it was, but some of it was just going up against very poor defensive team that make most Qb's look better.

It's sort of like taking a kid who bombs out at a division 1 school, sending him to a lower level, he puts up big numbers, and you then declare he's progressed... oh wait that was McCown's college career.

Your just not real stoked about the current direction of the cards are you?

 

[This_Guy]

T_G:

Just remember that little pearl of wisdom, the next time you get the urge to tout Shaun King's statistics from his brief stint as a starter in Tampa Bay. Oh, and since a 1-4 record is such a devastating indictment of quarterbacking ability, I guess the following players oughta be looking for other lines of work:

Brett Favre
Drew Bledsoe
Trent Green
Carson Palmer
Mark Brunell
Tim Rattay
Jake Delhomme

I mean, none of 'em has more than one win this season. And that's solely their fault, since the players around them have nothing to do with their ability to win games, right?

As for this:



You mean, after he won the starting job in Tampa Bay, started for a season-plus, then lost the job once the coaching staff felt that they knew what he could--and couldn't--do? I know, it was all a plot on the part of the Bucs coaches, denying the starting job to an obviously superior quarterback because... because... well, just because.

I dunno what's funnier, your dogged loyalty to a journeyman backup QB, or your insistence that it doesn't color your evaluation of the guy starting ahead of him.

WC

WC,

We need to get some things straight here.

It is TWO SEPERATE THINGS to think that the QB has not played well and to blame him solely for the loss. There have been 4 football games where the defense put the team in position to win a game. THAT is what a QB must do, and what McCown has not shown he can do.

For example, last night was not Brett Favre's fault (entirely) that they lost, but the defense also did not give him a chance to win it.

To take another example, Tim Rattay put the 49ers on his back and won the game this weekend. And he has 6 TD passes in 3 games. So the passing game is not the 49ers biggest weakness, whereas it most certainly is the Cardinals biggest weakness.

And in the example of Mark Brunell, I suggest you check out a Redskins Board. Brunnel has more passing yards and more TDs but hasn't done anything to win a game. Like the Cardinals, the Redskins defense has kept them in EVERY game this year, and the offense has not been able to do anything with it. Is it all Brunell's fault? No. But EVERY fan is livid that Gibbs won't switch to Ramsey.

And that is what is shocking to me here....Cardinals fans have no experience with success so they are content to have the attitude of losers....."Hey let's just let the kid keep bombing and hope he miraculously becomes the next franchise QB, of which there are 5-10 every decade".

As to your scenario about King, once again, you should know what you are talking about. Tony Dungy was the coach of the Bucs and he was firmly in King's corner. That was when the Bucs owners were getting antsy about the team not getting over the hump with Dungy and wanting to bring in Parcells. Well if Parcells comes in, there's no need for a GM. Rich McKay knew this and signed Brad Johnson to a big contract. Thus, McKay made King the scapegoat, to save Dungy's job and thus his own. (This same power play is why McKay recommended Marvin Lewis to ownership and they went against him and hired Gruden on their own. McKay was trying to save his own job).

Either way, it was supposed to be "mroe development" for King, just like McCown went through, not a signal that they had seen enough and were done with him. How can you give up on ANY QB after 2 seasons? So whether you blame the "benching" on Dungy or McKay, you'll note that it was Dungy who gave Dennis Green a very positive reference on King this offseason and it was Rich McKay who made King a contract offer on the first day of free agency this year, so either way, both like King quite a bit.

 

[Evil Ash]

dude, you're way overgeneralizing. i don't blame everything on josh. i don't have biases against josh. i do give him credit for his growth. we're just talking about a single point, that he doesn't come up in clutch or pressure situations and that scares us. don't put other people's baggage on me. read what I wrote and respond to what I say, not what everyone is saying.

Ouchie I wasn't talking about you.

Notice in my posts I often say "some people" just because it was in response to your post doesn't mean I was talking about you.

There are people on here (not including you and your bro, both of you guys seem fair in you criticisms) that obsess about Josh McCown and they say in over generalizing form that he is single-handedly losing every game for us. To me that shows a complete lack of knowledge of the game, there is more to a win or a loss than the play of one player.

It seems that some people have had a vendetta against the guy for some reason such as winning against Minnesota last year and not getting us the first pick (which to me is a joke).

Everyone has a right here to an opinion. I don't care what side you are on. I just prefer that people stay consistent (i.e. not switching on how to rate a QB's play based on only when it is convienient for you to prove a point)

IMO Josh should at least start for 8-10 weeks this season. If he doesn't get the job done than I say fine pull him and see if someone else can get the job done.

Also folks please stay open-minded about things. When comparing other players keep things in mind such as the talent of team, the possibility that they are only good in the system that team runs (or bad in it), etc

 

[joeshmo]

Holy Crap. I think I need the cliff notes version of this thread. There is no way I am reading 18 pages.

On a side not Cliff notes was directly related to me getting an A in 12 grade literature class. One of the best inventions of all time.

 

[conraddobler]

Holy Crap. I think I need the cliff notes version of this thread. There is no way I am reading 18 pages.

On a side not Cliff notes was directly related to me getting an A in 12 grade literature class. One of the best inventions of all time.

Cliff notes

Long run away threads

Large amounts of Frozen Margs consumed by normally docile women folk

 

[Bellingham Mike]

Guess clif will make up some other excuse to excuse mcclown. Not even worth trying to get some people to look at the situation objectively.

Calling him McClown and all your other posts about him, objectively is a word that does`nt come to mind.

 

[conraddobler]

Calling him McClown and all your other posts about him, objectively is a word that does`nt come to mind.

Just when I fear for humanity a voice of reason.

 

[Cheesebeef]

OMG - I'm gone all day and this thread is still going?! I'm sure all was very civil - look forward to reading it.

 

[nidan]

A note to several folks.

I don't have the time to read this whole thread but the bits I did read were starting to get close to the warning bell or "Yellow Card" as Section 11 puts it.

Its been a bad week, we are in recovery now, chill out guys.

Cheesie and our dancing friend both need to chill a little and probably a few others as well but its late, I'm to tired to care much and I'm off to bed.

Try not to fight while the responsible adults are asleep.