The Rosen Problem

[TJ]

And if we lose 12 games next year with Rosen because the offense sucks will you say:

"I saw Rosen play well enough so that those losses mean nothing. We're a great team despite our 4-12 record"

If we lose 12 games and Rosen looks bad, then he should be cut and replaced by whomever the 2020 first-round pick would be.

 

[Shane]

An NFL MVP and a Super Bowl appearance? I’ll take it. I think he might be a more dynamic leader than Ryan or Stanford, which may tilt the W/L convo.



Rivers might be the second-best QB never to win a championship. Top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDS.

Rivers is 100% a HOfer...

 

[Matt L]

Neil Degrasse Tyson says if you spend more than 5 minutes debating, both parties are wrong.

I couldn't care less about changing peoples minds. I have no interest in giving up on Rosen unless he is terrible next year. LAst year means nothing to me. We gave up the capital to get him because we believed in him and he deserves a MINIMUM 2 years to show he can be the guy.

Wh

I've seen this line of thinking somewhere before. I remember now....

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No one looked good on offense in 2016. Not Gurley, not Saffold, not Havenstein, not Higbee, none of the receivers...not Goff. Nobody. It was a shitshow. I could say the same for the Cards O in 2018.

IMO Goff looked even a bit worse than Rosen did surrounded by bad players and bad coaching. I'd say the common denominator is that they both handled losing and getting beat up quite well mentally. I fully expected Rosen's psyche, attitude and body language to collapse by December last year after hearing about all the so called "reports" on his bad attitude, but he showed me something by not pointing fingers and making excuses. I think that's been overlooked here, and a very positive tell tale sign about his character.

My point is you don't know what he is yet. You can't know. I happen to believe he can play, and with a competent staff and surrounding cast i believe he will play well.

Plus he's a pocket passer. Those guys are the QB's winning the important games. The shelf life of the dual threat QB is historically marginal it seems to me...but they sure are fun to watch for a few years.

Hope ya'll get who you want on draft day. If it were me i'd roll with Rosen and give him some elite targets and protection. Trade down or draft the BPA at #1

Just my 2 cents, but like i said at the top, i've seen this before.

Why is Goff now the rule and not the exception?

 

[Matt L]

Great point. Josh was on fire in the Seattle game. Leading us down the field toward a sure FG or TD to break the tie and gain the lead. Looked sharp and was coming into his own.

Then the coaching staff shut him down, called three straight runs up the middle, and took a long FG attempt (which was missed).

Factor that into the stats...

We should definitely bump up his completion percentage a couple points because of those three play calls.

 

[sdscard4]

That sounds fair. I'd think best expectation is he turns out to be Jay Schroeder, and Jay Schroeder was always a middle of the pack stayings quarterback.

Lol the year we had Schroeder..McMahon good times

 

[The Kraken]

Wh


Why is Goff now the rule and not the exception?

Goff isn't necessarily the issue, the difference & distinction between a Jeff Fisher led coaching staff vs a Sean McVay led coaching staff is the issue...not the QB.

Goff needed a fair chance to succeed as does Rosen...

Now if we do not see any development from Rosen with CK2 then it's obviously Rosen...

 

[Matt L]

Yeah PFF was just the start down this journey. I thought they were crazy so I started digging in and what I found changed my perceptions.

I think you make valid points.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah that dude Patrick Peterson was pretty poopy his first season too.

I'm glad we drafted CB Myler Kurray to replace him! What a bum!

 

[Krangodnzr]

I see this two ways:

1) Kyler Murray could be a very good QB. What's his ceiling though? He does have limitations though. Despite what his advocates say, his height will limit him at times.

2). Rosen sucked last year, but he could be a pretty good player too. I see his ceiling to be Eli Manning, not a perfect prospect but pretty good.

With #2...you also get a shot at an elite defender.

With #1 you don't....plus Kyler isn't proven despite all his acolades.

I WOULD go #1 IF a first rounder is offered for Rosen. I think the Giants are a real possibility. #17 and a 3rd rounder and I make that trade. Why? Because Murray is going to be an exciting player who will bring interest to the Cardinals.

 

[jefftheshark]

I’m of the opinion that last year’s disaster created what could only be described as Fan PTSD. It was such a nightmare that everything we once held as a strong belief is now questioned. Is Mike B a good owner or a bumbling incompetent meddler? Is Keim the GM who earned back to back executive of the year honors or a drunken fool who wouldn’t know a good draft pick if it bit him on his oversized stupid butt? Was Rosen the guy we were (mostly) ecstatic to steal at the #10 spot last year or a mirage that pulled the wool over the eyes of some of the most respected talent evaluators?

Well I don’t know any of these answers but who does? If I’ve learned anything from my years on this board is that crystal balls are very much in short supply. Especially mine.

It’s easy to be a naysayer. I get it, after last year who wouldn’t question everything? It was the perfect storm of cascading failures stacked so high it could be seen from neighboring planets.

I fell into the negativity trap as well.

But then I took a long look in the mirror and came to this epiphany, “What the f--k happened to the JTS I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This next year could be the greatest football season of our lives, but you’re all afraid that it’s gonna be the worst. 'Ooh, you’re afraid to go all in with Rosen, we might be even worse.’ (shouting) Well, Mr. Worry-Wort Shark you can just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Goff, he's a dead man! Garrapolo, dead! Wilson...

Well, you get the idea...

JTS

 

[Shane]

I’m of the opinion that last year’s disaster created what could only be described as Fan PTSD. It was such a nightmare that everything we once held as a strong belief is now questioned. Is Mike B a good owner or a bumbling incompetent meddler? Is Keim the GM who earned back to back executive of the year honors or a drunken fool who wouldn’t know a good draft pick if it bit him on his oversized stupid butt? Was Rosen the guy we were (mostly) ecstatic to steal at the #10 spot last year or a mirage that pulled the wool over the eyes of some of the most respected talent evaluators?

Well I don’t know any of these answers but who does? If I’ve learned anything from my years on this board is that crystal balls are very much in short supply. Especially mine.

It’s easy to be a naysayer. I get it, after last year who wouldn’t question everything? It was the perfect storm of cascading failures stacked so high it could be seen from neighboring planets.

I fell into the negativity trap as well.

But then I took a long look in the mirror and came to this epiphany, “What the f--k happened to the JTS I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This next year could be the greatest football season of our lives, but you’re all afraid that it’s gonna be the worst. 'Ooh, you’re afraid to go all in with Rosen, we might be even worse.’ (shouting) Well, Mr. Worry-Wort Shark you can just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Goff, he's a dead man! Garrapolo, dead! Wilson...

Well, you get the idea...

JTS

Miss ya my brother and friend

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick

Type in Google

Google "Drew Brees Advanced Stats:

Click on "Pro Football Focus"

Scroll down to career advanced Stats.

Compare away

Repeat process for any other questions you may have

Thanks....not paying for that tho. So, cannot really debate with you on advanced stats.

I can also instruct you how to read the glossary of what the advanced stats mean if you like

That would be interesting, to be honest, maybe my perception of the statistic would be swayed some what. I tried to read up on it, and it never seemed to be able to prove to me that at some point, there is a human saying that "X" is determined to be "a certain stat" based on his opinion on the situation.

Yet, people swear on it, so there has to be some validity to it.

Is there anything comparable with advanced stats, to compare Rosen vs. Murray, not asking you to look it up, just Yes it is possible, or No it is not, is the answer I am looking for.

Sorry, I missed the Johnson point you made before I asked about it.

We do not need religious figures on dangerous kids toys, 2000+ years of age has to give one, brittle bones.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

An NFL MVP and a Super Bowl appearance? I’ll take it. I think he might be a more dynamic leader than Ryan or Stanford, which may tilt the W/L convo.



Rivers might be the second-best QB never to win a championship. Top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDS.

*sniff* That's my quarterback. History repeats itself with the Chargers, Rivers is a modern day Don Fouts, another great never to win the big game.

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[Dr. Jones]

When I watched the PFF review of Rosen they basically said his ceiling is around QB 15.

Seemed crazy right? Best he can do...is that right?

That is an across the board in every measurable stat 20 QB improvement.

They are absolutely correct.

This is where the Murray deniers lose me.

Rosen.... Regressed throughout college. And the regressed as the season went along.

I'm not saying he won't get or be better than he was. I'm just saying that if you ever expect a top 10 QB game in and game out you are fooling yourself.

When that is your QB situation.... Everything else has to be so damn razor perfect to win in this league.

Does anyone expect us to be that good everywhere else on a consistent basis? I sure as hell don't.

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[Dr. Jones]

If I take the time to shred another excuse will you just "But what about" that one too?

It's hard to continue to provide well sourced data combined with undeniably strong game tape Chris.

You can't change how entrenched they are in their position.



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[RugbyMuffin]

This is where the Murray deniers lose me.

Rosen.... Regressed throughout college. And the regressed as the season went along.

I'm not saying he won't get or be better than he was. I'm just saying that if you ever expect a top 10 QB game in and game out you are fooling yourself.

When that is your QB situation.... Everything else has to be so damn razor perfect to win in this league.

Does anyone expect us to be that good everywhere else on a consistent basis? I sure as hell don't.

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But, this is where the Murray supporters lose me.

What is the guarantee that Murray comes in, and is better than Rosen?


I am not a Rosen supporter beyond reason, but to draft Murray over a potential elite pass rusher for the sake of giving up on a rookie QB for an offense that is going into its third year as being prominent in the league, is a GIGANTIC risk, and the odds, at least per what this league has dictated and shown to be throughout the years are very much against the plan of drafting Murray working.


- Pass rushers are HARD TO COME BY. Really hard to come by.

- Rosen was a rookie QB on a poor team. If that is not going to be looked at, as a valid argument, then that is more or less disregarding, easily 90% (and I feel that number is very conservative), of QB's that have been successful in this league have gone through in there time in the NFL.

- NFL defensive coordinators, are pretty good at their jobs. They will find ways to stop offenses. They always have, and always will.


- If one can say that 100% Rosen is going to be a failure, and Murray 100% is going to be the next great QB in the league, the opposite can be just as much true.


- You talk about a team having to be perfect for the sake of a poor QB (again, stating a rookie QB is going to be horrible as it is fact, but we have hashed that out). Fair enough. Aaron Rogers is the best QB in the league, without a team around him, he cannot do much either.


Not saying it is not a good argument, but I feel the supporters are just as dramatic with their predictions of Murray's future, as Rosen's supporters are.

Bird in hand is worth two in the bush, as they say.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It's hard to continue to provide well sourced data combined with undeniably strong game tape Chris.

You can't change how entrenched they are in their position.

Yep.

You do not feel you are not entrenched in yours? Just saying.

It is a debate.

An idea gets thrown out there, and not everyone falls in line, and you find yourself exhausted debating the idea you bring to the table ?

Then do not bring the idea to the table, or just let the post sit there, and do not comment.

I respect the passion, but I think you have to sit back a second and realize there is a not a comment about Rosen, or Murray that you do not respond to. Said response gets said counter-response, and you seem to get annoyed every time, and take it out on the poster who is debating you.

Don't know what to say about that, again, you have good points, and a very valid argument. But, I think you have to realize that you bring a lot of this frustration upon yourself, and I do not see the need to go after the poster who disagrees with you because of it.

Make your point, move on. If you are right later, then send the person some BBQ sauce to have with their crow. Pretty sure, a Cardinals fan would be very happy to see the team turn around regardless of the QB at the helm.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

If we lose 12 games and Rosen looks bad, then he should be cut and replaced by whomever the 2020 first-round pick would be.

Agree sir. Sorry that I was a little snarky with my last response.

If we're being perfectly fair, Josh Rosen did not have a fair opportunity last year. True, he showed very little, and it's concerning.

But I just can't get past the idea that he's still largely an unknown quantity.

That's the worst part of the Murray debate. Guys getting after Josh a little more than they should be.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Yep.

You do not feel you are not entrenched in yours? Just saying.

It is a debate.


Make your point, move on. If you are right later, then send the person some BBQ sauce to have with their crow. Pretty sure, a Cardinals fan would be very happy to see the team turn around regardless of the QB at the helm.

Maybe. I do believe I am looking at all of the data and then basing my decision off of those results.

The arguments that annoy me are the ones that do not advance the discussion.

1. Name calling. Dwarf. T-Rex. etc.
2. All of that data doesn't matter when you get to the big dance.
3. Look at the ALABAMA game! But then ignore that Oklahoma's defense lost that game, Not KM's play.
4. He didn't run the 40! Look..... He must not be fast!

About the part I bolded:
Based on the vitriol of some of those posters... I think they would prefer to be right about their position instead of eating crow. In fact, they will probably say something like: "I'm not sorry that Kyler changed the game, How was I supposed to know that would happen!?!?!"

 

[RON_IN_OC]

I see Matt Ryan or Eli Manning.

So, he's capable of playing in and winning super bowls....good enough for me.

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[Crimson Warrior]

Maybe. I do believe I am looking at all of the data and then basing my decision off of those results.

The arguments that annoy me are the ones that do not advance the discussion.

1. Name calling. Dwarf. T-Rex. etc.
2. All of that data doesn't matter when you get to the big dance.
3. Look at the ALABAMA game! But then ignore that Oklahoma's defense lost that game, Not KM's play.
4. He didn't run the 40! Look..... He must not be fast!

About the part I bolded:
Based on the vitriol of some of those posters... I think they would prefer to be right about their position instead of eating crow. In fact, they will probably say something like: "I'm not sorry that Kyler changed the game, How was I supposed to know that would happen!?!?!"

Keep beating on them with facts Doctor. We've got the right of it as long as work from the idea of Murray's talent and potential.

 

[Ohcrap75]

This is where the Murray deniers lose me.

Rosen.... Regressed throughout college. And the regressed as the season went along.

I'm not saying he won't get or be better than he was. I'm just saying that if you ever expect a top 10 QB game in and game out you are fooling yourself.

When that is your QB situation.... Everything else has to be so damn razor perfect to win in this league.

Does anyone expect us to be that good everywhere else on a consistent basis? I sure as hell don't.

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Dr., can't ones prognosis of one be exclusive from another? Murray deniers vs Rosen truthers. I would argue the opposite. I feel like many are picking one side and knocking the other to make a better case for their guy. My preference is to study players game tape individually. I currently give Rosen a slight edge to be a successful qb in 3 years. Upside advantage goes to Murray, but many more question marks giving him lower floor.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Dr., can't ones prognosis of one be exclusive from another? Murray deniers vs Rosen truthers. I would argue the opposite. I feel like many are picking one side and knocking the other to make a better case for their guy. My preference is to study players game tape individually. I currently give Rosen a slight edge to be a successful qb in 3 years. Upside advantage goes to Murray, but many more question marks giving him lower floor.

Not denying that you may be right. And honestly...... I will be fine either way.

I will be a die hard fan regardless, just prefer to root for a team willing to swing for the fences over a play it safe, let's hope our prototypical looking QB is better than literally all of the advanced stats say he will be.

If our GM will hire an unconventional HC. I would hope he would have the balls to hire an unconventional QB when the opportunity presents itself. Especially when that QB's ceiling has the chance to be so generational in nature.

 

[Krangodnzr]

*sniff* That's my quarterback. History repeats itself with the Chargers, Rivers is a modern day Don Fouts, another great never to win the big game.

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Rivers is one of my all time favorites as well.

Watched him at NC State alot in college.

 

[Krangodnzr]

This is where the Murray deniers lose me.

Rosen.... Regressed throughout college. And the regressed as the season went along.

I'm not saying he won't get or be better than he was. I'm just saying that if you ever expect a top 10 QB game in and game out you are fooling yourself.

When that is your QB situation.... Everything else has to be so damn razor perfect to win in this league.

Does anyone expect us to be that good everywhere else on a consistent basis? I sure as hell don't.

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Regressed during college? You can't even present a good argument.

He was obviously better as a junior than as a freshman. At least google his stats and you will see that.

You do realize he play for Jim Mora? Mora is an awful football coach who has failed everywhere he's gone.