The Scoop on The Saints' Trade

Walter Mitchell

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The trade was in the works for a week...which likely means the terms were agreed in principle to before the Bears/Jets trade. Early in the week this trade would have seemed more feasible, but by draft day the trade looked all the more dubious because of what the Bears got for the #4 pick.

The Cardinals' plan backfired, there's little question of that...partly because Jerome McDougle was swiped away at #15...partly because the run on defensive linemen was fast and furious...and partly because the Cardinals shot themselves in the foot by swapping the second round picks. The Cardinals could have selected WR Bryant Johnson as expected and then traded the #18 pick, but once it became clear that the top defensive linemen were being taken like hot stock options, the Cardinals couldn't risk trading the #18 pick for a middle to late second rounder. Had the Cardinals been able to keep their #37 second round pick, they could have traded the #18 with the notion that Calvin Pace would have been available at #37.

The biggest dilemma at #18 must have become whether to select the last of the heralded 1st round defensive linemen: DT William Joseph. Once again the Cardinals had shot themselves in the foot by re-signing Russell Davis and Barron Tanner before the draft. While Joseph would have normally been a highly attractive pick at that spot, the Cardinals HAD to come away with a DE...by hook or by crook. Because Suggs, Haynes and McDougle had all been taken the Cardinals basically had to choose between Calvin Pace, Chris Kelsay, Tyler Brayton, Corey Redding, Dewayne White or Alonzo Jackson. Pace was rising on a lot of draft charts...in fact, Mel Kiper recently moved him up to #38 on his board.

Is Calvin Pace worthy of the #18 pick? Nobody thinks so. But, the Cardinals couldn't risk that Pace would be available at #54...and they probably were right. Just the same, Calvin Pace may be a better fit for the Cardinals as a three down DE than Terrell Suggs. Whether any of you want to ignore the obvious or not...Terrell Suggs needs to play at 252 pounds and therefore is ideally a three down 3-4 Sam LB...which is exactly how Baltimore is going to use him. The Cardinals' dilemma was...and it IS a valid one...they would either have to pay Suggs #6 money to be a situational pass rusher in the 4-3 or switch their base defense to the 3-4. We have been arguing for quite some time as to what defense best serves the Cardinals' current talent base on defense...and many of you have rightly ascertained that Mac and Marmie are 4-3 proponents. Calvin Pace, on the other hand, has the size, quickness and strength to be a three down DE in the 4-3, which is why the Cardinals tabbed him.

They wanted McDougle...and while the Cardinals may have initially looked silly, the Cardinals may have lucked out. McDougle clearly has intelligence/character issues...any guy who on the eve of the most important event of his life...chooses to resist authority and get arrested...has to be questioned. In addition, if you watch McDougle on tape he's a terrific athlete, no question, but he and fellow primadonna William Joseph were frequently pounded in the running game this past season. Neither one of them is a consistent stalwart at the point of attack...which is more a question of toughness and character than anything else, because these guys are physically gifted.

I would just remind everyone that Rod Graves is a relative rookie when it comes to being the top person in charge of free agency and the draft. We have to cut him a little slack. He was being proactive by trading down in order to address multiple needs. In retrospect, his biggest mistake was swapping the 2nd round picks and I'm sure he recognizes this.

Rod Graves strikes me as a man of real integrity. He has been working diligently to improve the quality and character of this football team. He has asked us to be patient...and I believe we should honor his wish. He is learning a great deal every day on the job and this will make him all the more savvy today and tomorrow. Of course, it would be a real boon if Calvin Pace turns out to be a productive DE in the Cardinals' system. Who knows? Maybe Graves will come out of this looking like a genius. If not, he will certainly come out of this more prepared for the next draft.
 

azwulf

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I found a grading system for draft positions at www.azcardinal.com (draft section).For what it's worth, somebody gave value to each slot to be able to compare trades. I'm sure there is a lot to argue about this but our trade equates to Cards 2210 : N.O. 2216. A very slight advantage. I would have the feeling that trading down means we should have the advantage but this only confirms how bad the cardinals did not want Suggs.
 

red desert

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Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
The trade was in the works for a week...which likely means the terms were agreed in principle to before the Bears/Jets trade. Early in the week this trade would have seemed more feasible, but by draft day the trade looked all the more dubious because of what the Bears got for the #4 pick.

The Cardinals' plan backfired, there's little question of that...partly because Jerome McDougle was swiped away at #15...partly because the run on defensive linemen was fast and furious...and partly because the Cardinals shot themselves in the foot by swapping the second round picks. The Cardinals could have selected WR Bryant Johnson as expected and then traded the #18 pick, but once it became clear that the top defensive linemen were being taken like hot stock options, the Cardinals couldn't risk trading the #18 pick for a middle to late second rounder. Had the Cardinals been able to keep their #37 second round pick, they could have traded the #18 with the notion that Calvin Pace would have been available at #37.

The biggest dilemma at #18 must have become whether to select the last of the heralded 1st round defensive linemen: DT William Joseph. Once again the Cardinals had shot themselves in the foot by re-signing Russell Davis and Barron Tanner before the draft. While Joseph would have normally been a highly attractive pick at that spot, the Cardinals HAD to come away with a DE...by hook or by crook. Because Suggs, Haynes and McDougle had all been taken the Cardinals basically had to choose between Calvin Pace, Chris Kelsay, Tyler Brayton, Corey Redding, Dewayne White or Alonzo Jackson. Pace was rising on a lot of draft charts...in fact, Mel Kiper recently moved him up to #38 on his board.

Is Calvin Pace worthy of the #18 pick? Nobody thinks so. But, the Cardinals couldn't risk that Pace would be available at #54...and they probably were right. Just the same, Calvin Pace may be a better fit for the Cardinals as a three down DE than Terrell Suggs. Whether any of you want to ignore the obvious or not...Terrell Suggs needs to play at 252 pounds and therefore is ideally a three down 3-4 Sam LB...which is exactly how Baltimore is going to use him. The Cardinals' dilemma was...and it IS a valid one...they would either have to pay Suggs #6 money to be a situational pass rusher in the 4-3 or switch their base defense to the 3-4. We have been arguing for quite some time as to what defense best serves the Cardinals' current talent base on defense...and many of you have rightly ascertained that Mac and Marmie are 4-3 proponents. Calvin Pace, on the other hand, has the size, quickness and strength to be a three down DE in the 4-3, which is why the Cardinals tabbed him.

They wanted McDougle...and while the Cardinals may have initially looked silly, the Cardinals may have lucked out. McDougle clearly has intelligence/character issues...any guy who on the eve of the most important event of his life...chooses to resist authority and get arrested...has to be questioned. In addition, if you watch McDougle on tape he's a terrific athlete, no question, but he and fellow primadonna William Joseph were frequently pounded in the running game this past season. Neither one of them is a consistent stalwart at the point of attack...which is more a question of toughness and character than anything else, because these guys are physically gifted.

I would just remind everyone that Rod Graves is a relative rookie when it comes to being the top person in charge of free agency and the draft. We have to cut him a little slack. He was being proactive by trading down in order to address multiple needs. In retrospect, his biggest mistake was swapping the 2nd round picks and I'm sure he recognizes this.

Rod Graves strikes me as a man of real integrity. He has been working diligently to improve the quality and character of this football team. He has asked us to be patient...and I believe we should honor his wish. He is learning a great deal every day on the job and this will make him all the more savvy today and tomorrow. Of course, it would be a real boon if Calvin Pace turns out to be a productive DE in the Cardinals' system. Who knows? Maybe Graves will come out of this looking like a genius. If not, he will certainly come out of this more prepared for the next draft.

Even if Pace turns out to be the real deal, it will not change the fact that we shouldn't have switched 2 round picks nor given up our 4 as we did.

And as far having patience with Graves . . . what choice do we have? We're Cardinal fans. End of story. The trade still sucks.
 

Cats

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Thanks Walter Mitchell

For your post. I agree with you 100% and I wish people would see that the Cards had a plan that went haywire.

I would like to post your post at azcardinals.com message board, because this needs to be put out there for everyone to understand what happened, and you explain it great! I'm asking first to post it, if it's ok by you.
 

conraddobler

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Yeah the plan went haywire but thats the draft and who knows most of it is luck and we are due for some luck..

I really really like Pace he seems to be a great combo of talent and attitude.. Not just one or the other like McDougal and Suggs... All talent and Rice like attitude.
 

JeffGollin

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I would just remind everyone that Rod Graves is a relative rookie when it comes to being the top person in charge of free agency and the draft. We have to cut him a little slack.
The "rookie" excuse is bogus - Rod Graves has had experience working in the Bears' personnel dept. and under Fergy. They pay him a lot of money.

Check some of the predraft posts on this bb cautioning the Cards not to trade down beneath the point where they could be guaranteed they'd get a player they wanted.

It is not difficult to count the number of slots from #6 and #17 and then do a count of whether there are 12 players you like still available on your draft board. We're fans. We don't get paid. Yet we know this. It's Rod's job to know this and not to screw up.

What I really think happened is either (a) Rod wanted to show Mac and the Bidwills how clever he was and how he could "play the draft" instead of doing the football-solid logical thing by staying put at #6 and drafting a proven sackmaster or (b) someone else in the Cardinal War Room - could have been Mac or one or more of the Bidwills - talked him in to doing the trade (i.e. "Trust me, a couple of teams are going to take a QB or offensive linemen and we're going to be OK.")

Maybe the reason Mac had the sick look on his face was that he was the one who said "trust me."

I don't know about any of you guys, but I've been fired more than once when I worked my butt off but "bleep happened" and I was held accountable when things didn't work out as expected.

Whomever was responsible for this (and it may not have been Rod) should be held accountable for (a) passing up a proven sackmaster, (b) miscalculating on McDougle and then (c) reaching for "need" instead of picking a better over all player - like Faine or Joseph.
 

john h

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Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
The trade was in the works for a week...which likely means the terms were agreed in principle to before the Bears/Jets trade. Early in the week this trade would have seemed more feasible, but by draft day the trade looked all the more dubious because of what the Bears got for the #4 pick.

The Cardinals' plan backfired, there's little question of that...partly because Jerome McDougle was swiped away at #15...partly because the run on defensive linemen was fast and furious...and partly because the Cardinals shot themselves in the foot by swapping the second round picks. The Cardinals could have selected WR Bryant Johnson as expected and then traded the #18 pick, but once it became clear that the top defensive linemen were being taken like hot stock options, the Cardinals couldn't risk trading the #18 pick for a middle to late second rounder. Had the Cardinals been able to keep their #37 second round pick, they could have traded the #18 with the notion that Calvin Pace would have been available at #37.

The biggest dilemma at #18 must have become whether to select the last of the heralded 1st round defensive linemen: DT William Joseph. Once again the Cardinals had shot themselves in the foot by re-signing Russell Davis and Barron Tanner before the draft. While Joseph would have normally been a highly attractive pick at that spot, the Cardinals HAD to come away with a DE...by hook or by crook. Because Suggs, Haynes and McDougle had all been taken the Cardinals basically had to choose between Calvin Pace, Chris Kelsay, Tyler Brayton, Corey Redding, Dewayne White or Alonzo Jackson. Pace was rising on a lot of draft charts...in fact, Mel Kiper recently moved him up to #38 on his board.

Is Calvin Pace worthy of the #18 pick? Nobody thinks so. But, the Cardinals couldn't risk that Pace would be available at #54...and they probably were right. Just the same, Calvin Pace may be a better fit for the Cardinals as a three down DE than Terrell Suggs. Whether any of you want to ignore the obvious or not...Terrell Suggs needs to play at 252 pounds and therefore is ideally a three down 3-4 Sam LB...which is exactly how Baltimore is going to use him. The Cardinals' dilemma was...and it IS a valid one...they would either have to pay Suggs #6 money to be a situational pass rusher in the 4-3 or switch their base defense to the 3-4. We have been arguing for quite some time as to what defense best serves the Cardinals' current talent base on defense...and many of you have rightly ascertained that Mac and Marmie are 4-3 proponents. Calvin Pace, on the other hand, has the size, quickness and strength to be a three down DE in the 4-3, which is why the Cardinals tabbed him.

They wanted McDougle...and while the Cardinals may have initially looked silly, the Cardinals may have lucked out. McDougle clearly has intelligence/character issues...any guy who on the eve of the most important event of his life...chooses to resist authority and get arrested...has to be questioned. In addition, if you watch McDougle on tape he's a terrific athlete, no question, but he and fellow primadonna William Joseph were frequently pounded in the running game this past season. Neither one of them is a consistent stalwart at the point of attack...which is more a question of toughness and character than anything else, because these guys are physically gifted.

I would just remind everyone that Rod Graves is a relative rookie when it comes to being the top person in charge of free agency and the draft. We have to cut him a little slack. He was being proactive by trading down in order to address multiple needs. In retrospect, his biggest mistake was swapping the 2nd round picks and I'm sure he recognizes this.

Rod Graves strikes me as a man of real integrity. He has been working diligently to improve the quality and character of this football team. He has asked us to be patient...and I believe we should honor his wish. He is learning a great deal every day on the job and this will make him all the more savvy today and tomorrow. Of course, it would be a real boon if Calvin Pace turns out to be a productive DE in the Cardinals' system. Who knows? Maybe Graves will come out of this looking like a genius. If not, he will certainly come out of this more prepared for the next draft.

This is the NFL I would give Rod Graves any slack at all. He has been around here quiet a while. This is not OJT. He screwed up big time and who is to say he will be any smarter the next time.
 

Tangodnzr

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Another great post Walter.

Obviously some of the Suggs groupies are still pissed, and moaning and groaning.....no surprise there.

I'm not jumping up and down about the draft, but I think you pretty much delineated what happened very well.

Actually I'm glad they made the Johnson/Pace choice instead of taking Joseph. I felt he was and is a high risk pick. Talk about "reaching" at 6, that would even be more so of one than the Pace pick, in my mind.

I had been pushing for Kennedy/Robertson, but unlike the Suggs groupies I can let it go. Obviously they had planned well in advance that if the 3 players they wanted weren't there, then the trade option held better possibilities. Suggs, Kennedy, and Trufant weren't any of those 3.

The draft really started getting crazy at that point. No one had a crystal ball guarantees the foresight of what ended up happening.
And by that time the draft clock is running.
 

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Re: Thanks Walter Mitchell

Originally posted by Cats
For your post. I agree with you 100% and I wish people would see that the Cards had a plan that went haywire.

I would like to post your post at azcardinals.com message board, because this needs to be put out there for everyone to understand what happened, and you explain it great! I'm asking first to post it, if it's ok by you.

Agree 100% Walter brings voice of reason back to Az. fans.
 

Tangodnzr

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Just remembered on additional thing Walter. Someone posted that Graves had tried to contact San Diego but Philly had already beat him to the punch. I'm not sure on the time frame there, whether it was before or after the Saints deal. I assumed it was after, but I really don't know for sure.
 

Russ Smith

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Tango and Walt, yes excrement happens but you get judged on how you deal with it. I'd much rather have had Faine than Pace even if we do need a pass rusher. Look at some of the guys taken after we took Pace. Maybe he's a huge steal but unless we really believe someone else was going to grab him, we reached. We made the trade to get McDougle, if Philly could move up to get him why couldn't we? Answer, because we got swindled with the swap of #2's and giving up the 4th,we had nothing to offer in trade so we sat still.

The more I read about Pace the more he sounds like a potential player, but on a 5-11 team you don't draft a kid like that in the first round if you don't have to. I'd have taken Faine and Washington myself and then frantically tried to move up for Peek. The main mistake was the trade itself, I think Johnson, Pace and Boldin might all ultimately work out but I wanted more impact. We had to be able to move the pick to someone who wanted Leftwich and get more out of it than we got.
 

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