The Sky is Falling

[slinslin]

Because Steve Nash isn't the type of player to seek a trade, it is highly unlikely he will be dealt before the Feb. 24th deadline.

But the Suns have received calls from the Hawks, Magic, Blazers and Mavericks about the possibility of trading for Nash, according to sources. The Wolves and Raptors have also called about Nash's availability despite both of those teams being out of the playoff picture.

"The only reason you would ever even remotely consider trading Steve is if he came to you and said, 'I think I need to move on somewhere,' " says Alvin Gentry. "That would be the only reason. But to us, making that decision to trade him, I don't see why we would even think about it. You guys can keep talking about it, but we're not going to trade him. He's playing at such a high level. Why would we?

"How you gonna get value for him? Unless you're gonna go get Deron Williams or Chris Paul or somebody like that, tell me how. Why do we have to bottom out to rebuild our team? I don't see why you would want to bottom out and spend the next five years trying to get good again."

"I don't see how it makes any sense for us to move him," GM Lon Babby said. "I know that people think we ought to look to the future. And we're doing that. But if you look at the history of the teams that have sort of blown it up, as the expression goes, how successful have they been in recapturing [elite status] and how long does it take?

"I'm willing to put more faith in Grant Hill, Steve Nash and the players that we have than I am in a lottery ball," Babby continued. "It's easy to say blow it up, but show me the teams that have successfully done it and how long it took and how much luck was involved, because luck's involved in everything. I don't want to depend on fortuity. I'd rather depend on a two-time MVP."

Hello years of mediocrity before eventually maybe still falling to the bottom.

Goodbye championship hopes.

I wish someone would ask Lon Babby some other questions:

What teams didn't go to rock bottom before being contenders?

The Suns didn't go all the way to the bottom but far enough to grab Amare Stoudemire which made them a a contender and then they simply lucked out on signing Nash although you could well argue that another year at the bottom to get Chris Paul or Deron Williams while keeping #7 Iguodala would have made them a much better contender.

The Spurs went all the way to the bottom to draft Tim Duncan otherwise they would have sucked or be mediocre for many years.

The Orlando Magic, Denver Nuggest, Cleveland Cavaliers and Miami Heat went all the way to the bottom to get Howard, Melo, Lebron and Wade.

The Bostons Celtics went to the bottom to get Pierce and trade assets to get Garnett, Allen and then weren't afraid to acquire more picks like Rondo.

The Sonics/Thunder went all the way to the bottom to get Durant, Westbrook, Green, Harden and were not afraid to acquire more picks to get Ibaka, Mullen, Aldrich etc..

The Hornets got Chris Paul, Utah got Deron Williams.

There is no contender that was built by staying mediocre for years. Even the Lakers SUCKED before they luckily got Shaq and Kobe on a draft day trade.

Lon Babby argument might make sense if Steve Nash and Grant Hill were 27 instead of 37.

If he thinks this team will improve with this core that is just insane. Nevermind improve enough to contend with Miami and other teams.

And worst of all under Sarver the Suns more and more get the image of a franchise free agents DO NOT want to sign with.

I don't see why you would want to bottom out and spend the next five years trying to get good again

In case you did not notice we suck right now. You have already been trying to desperately get good again and it did not work.
At least try to get good again by drafting players with potential instead of sitting at #14 and signing mediocre free agents to long term deals.

 

[Mainstreet]

Watching the Suns play The Thunder was like watching the past play the future.

If Nash and Hill want to play for a contender they will need to step forward. Sometimes loyalty is not good for the team or the player(s). However, if the Suns are being offered garbage I can see why the Suns are not interested in a trade. IMO, Dallas would be the perfect destination for Nash.

 

[slinslin]

What the Suns should do then is to sit Nash and Hill and play the young guys (doh we don't have any prospects anymore since we decided to trade away Earl Clark as a throw in before ever finding out what he could do)

 

[BC867]

What the Suns should do then is to sit Nash and Hill and play the young guys (doh we don't have any prospects anymore since we decided to trade away Earl Clark as a throw in before ever finding out what he could do)

Since being traded to Orlando, Earl Clark is averaging 3.7 points and 1.7 rebounds in 9.5 minutes per game.

With the Suns this season, his averages were 3.2 points and 1.9 rebounds in 8.0 minutes per game.

He's not doing any better there than here.

 

[slinslin]

Because they are a contending team and have a hard time finding minutes for him. He has looked good in some games where he got minutes however.

He just had his best game for them.

It is all moot now however since we don't even have a player with potential anymore that needs minutes to develop.

 

[Mainstreet]

Because they are a contending team and have a hard time finding minutes for him. He has looked good in some games where he got minutes however.

He just had his best game for them.

It is all moot now however since we don't even have a player with potential anymore that needs minutes to develop.

I would not underestimate Siler. He is big man that can play with his back to the basket and he has a nice shooting touch. The Suns didn't keep him for nothing. What Siler needs to learn to be a viable NBA player is to develop his defense. He is still raw but the talent is there.

 

[Errntknght]

I would not underestimate Siler. He is big man that can play with his back to the basket and he has a nice shooting touch. The Suns didn't keep him for nothing. What Siler needs to learn to be a viable NBA player is to develop his defense. He is still raw but the talent is there.

I was about to mention Siler as a noteworthy prospect. One of his big deficiencies in the bit we've seen him is his inability to catch a pass in any semblance of traffic. I'd expect that to improve with experience, because he has decent hands rebounding, but it needs to improve a lot. Avoiding the P & R would seem to be a good idea. He does appear to have a good touch from ten feet and if he can stretch that out to 18 feet he might do okay in a pick & pop. I expect his mobility to hamper him defending at the PF position but he should be passable at C. (I wish Gentry would find some minutes for him - at Warrick's expense on nights where the latter is being kept from the rim.)

We also have Lawal recovering from an injury. We've seen nothing of him since training camp but he was doing fairly well in the DL, in terms of his rebounding and scoring stats. IMO, he has a bit more potential than Siler but we'll have to see - hopefully we will get to see...

 

[JCSunsfan]

Babby is right. Blowing it up is usually a path to years of mediocrity. Unless you have specific plan and the players you already know you want, its a disaster.

Look at Minnesota and Boston. Minny blew it up. Boston was bad too, but picked Garnett and literally turned it around in one summer.

 

[Errntknght]

Minnie blew it more than they blew it up - they lost three first round picks trying to make an under the table deal. IIRC, Garnett forced his way out after that. Some other players had left because they didn't get along with Garnett.

 

[slinslin]

Babby is right. Blowing it up is usually a path to years of mediocrity. Unless you have specific plan and the players you already know you want, its a disaster.

Look at Minnesota and Boston. Minny blew it up. Boston was bad too, but picked Garnett and literally turned it around in one summer.

You bring up Boston as an example when blowing it up lead to success for them, funny.

How do you think they picked up Garnett? By moving the assets they got from blowing it up just like Ray Allen.

Minnesota never was that good of a team to begin with.

Of course there are examples of teams who never got good again but that is due to bad management and bad draft picks.

On the other hand show me a team that stayed mediocre all the time and eventually became a contender? That is not happening at some point we will be so bad that we will get high lottery pick anyway Babby is just forcing us to wait for this another 2-3 years while we watch this crappy mediocre team struggle to reach .500.


Miami, Orlando, Cleveland, New Orleans, Portland, Utah, San Antonio, Denver, Oklahoma, Chicago ALL of them were bad and than became good after a good high draft pick or multiple draft picks

It is Babby's job to make sure we follow that route and not Golden States or the Clippers.

 

[sunsfan88]

Is Alvin Gentry stupid? Does he have an IQ of a 9 year old?

He actually thinks keeping Nash and Grant are the best ways to rebuild? How the f*** does he expect to get the draft picks and young players needed to rebuils? We only have one lottery pick next draft so are we gonna keep drafting one player a season or somethin?

And what the hell is Gentry gonna do once Hill and Nash retire? We'll be left with nothing. Better getting something than nothing!

Till now I thought Gentry was a bad HC but now he's got me questioning his knowledge. He needs to quit basketball, go to college then learn the game of basketball ALL OVER AGAIN.

 

[Magnus]

Agreed, this team is definitely not near a championship contender. But is blowing it up the only solution?

There are various problems with the decision of blowing it up. First of all, it will hurt the Suns financially. And then, there's 3 different scenarios that can play out:

Scenario 1: The team goes to the bottom and stays there.
Scenario 2: The team goes to the bottom only to rise up to mediocre again
Scenario 3: The team goes to the bottom and rises up to win the title

Scenario 1 is obviously something that noone wants to see happen, but it's still a chance, and it has as much a probability as winning a title. But given the Suns franchise history, I don't consider it much of a possibility, still it's worth mentioning, as a reminder.

Scenario 2 is somewhat likely, and it would only mean a colossal waste of resources and time, since it would take a couple of years to get back at where the team is currently at.

Scenario 3 is the glimmer of hope that many fans here hold on to, but it is more of a hollywood scenario. The underdog rises to win. Blowing it up doesn't automatically mean winning a title in the coming years, and I got the impression that some people think of it as a bulletproof plan. Yeah there'd be high draft picks, but there's an awful lot of luck, timing, uncertain future prospects involved. Furthermore, it's not like the Suns will be the only team with the 'blow-it-up-than-get-better' philosophy. Other teams will be aiming for it aswell, so there's a whole bunch of teams trying to rebuild alongside the Suns, and we have to be better at it than them. Cleveland would want a new Lebron as much as Phoenix would like an all-star PF. Not every team will get what they want.

In conclusion, it's a huge risk with a very low percentage succes rate. Is it really the only thing left to do? Remember how bad the Suns looked like before the Gortrat trade, and now after that it looks a lot more like a real NBA team. Maybe another trade like that can give Suns an extra push. I don't know, I think this team just needs to be paitent.

You can blow it up any season if it just sucks so bad. It doesn't have to be ''years of mediocrity'' as many suggest is the most likely Suns future. In fact, this is the first really mediocre year the Suns have had in a long time. The decision to blow it up is not one to make suddenly, after half of a season of bad play. It needs a lot of thinking and careful planning if it were ever to be realised.

 

[boisesuns]

I think Scenario 2 is going to have to happen anyways once nash is gone, and i'm not sure that we'll get better with trades since we don't have much decent talent value. Our best hope is cap space and the draft, but i'm not sure about our skills in either of those areas.

 

[BC867]

Is Alvin Gentry stupid? Does he have an IQ of a 9 year old? He actually thinks keeping Nash and Grant are the best ways to rebuild?

You do know that the Head Coach leads the players given to him by the GM, don't you?

The Suns tried the GM/Head Coach approach with D'Antoni and, in the long run, that didn't work out. No defense. Poor rebounding. Not his job to develop young players. That's why he was invited to leave.

At two games under .500, despite having to deal with two major upheavals this season, Gentry is doing just about as well as anyone can expect.

The Front Office is clearly not rebuilding, to keep the turnstyles going. That is not a reflection of Gentry's intelligence or IQ.

 

[sunsfan88]

You do know that the Head Coach leads the players given to him by the GM, don't you?

The Suns tried the GM/Head Coach approach with D'Antoni and, in the long run, that didn't work out. No defense. Poor rebounding. Not his job to develop young players. That's why he was invited to leave.

At two games under .500, despite having to deal with two major upheavals this season, Gentry is doing just about as well as anyone can expect.

The Front Office is clearly not rebuilding, to keep the turnstyles going. That is not a reflection of Gentry's intelligence or IQ.

Yea but he says "Why should we bottom out our team to rebuild?" That is a reflection of an IQ. Which team in NBA history has rebuilded while having 2 players over the age of 37 and another player at 34 years old?

Except for the Spurs, every other team has gone through rough times before they got good. Staying with the #14 pick every season doesnt help us at all.

True Gentry doesnt make decisions but he doesnt have to say things that sound utterly stupid.

The whole FO needs to sell the team and go start some kind of other bussiness. Basketball is clearly not for them.

 

[Ronin]

Because they are a contending team and have a hard time finding minutes for him. He has looked good in some games where he got minutes however.

He can't get minutes over Chris Duhon, Q-Rich, or Malik Allen? Puh-lease.

 

[Joe Mama]

What do you guys think is being offered in return for Steve Nash?

Joe

 

[slinslin]

What do you guys think is being offered in return for Steve Nash?

Joe

Probably not much but it is not so much about not wanting to trade Nash it is about their unwilligness to accept a couple of lottery years and acquiring young talent instead of being a mediocre old sub .500 team that still plays a gimmick style basketball.

Also Earl Clark is showing some good flashes for Orlando recently but of course we could never afford to play him any consistent minutes to find out if he could play in the NBA before tossing away our only young player with any sort of potential.

 

[SunsTzu]

What do you guys think is being offered in return for Steve Nash?

Joe

Nothing worth building around, which is why I don't get the point of trading Nash just to trade him. The upcoming draft looks pretty weak and really no franchise level FAs this year(aside from Melo who looks to have already made his choice). Don't see a major difference between keeping Nash and maybe picking 10-15 than trading him for crap and picking 5-10.

Suns already have huge capspace available in the next potentially huge FA period in 2012.

 

[SunsTzu]

Probably not much but it is not so much about not wanting to trade Nash it is about their unwilligness to accept a couple of lottery years and acquiring young talent instead of being a mediocre old sub .500 team that still plays a gimmick style basketball.

Also Earl Clark is showing some good flashes for Orlando recently but of course we could never afford to play him any consistent minutes to find out if he could play in the NBA before tossing away our only young player with any sort of potential.

Shouldn't you be more upset with the Suns not picking up Clark's option? As soon as that happened his days were numbered. Will be interesting to see if the Magic think he's worth a contract this offseason.

 

[slinslin]

Nobody will sign with this franchise in 2012. At least nobody worth building a championship team around.

In 2012 we will have this very same team minus Nash, Carter, Hill and some others and whoever we draft in the upcoming draft.

How is that going to be attractive for a FA to go to a lottery team that has no talent and a crappy owner.

 

[SunsTzu]

Nobody will sign with this franchise in 2012. At least nobody worth building a championship team around.

In 2012 we will have this very same team minus Nash, Carter, Hill and some others and whoever we draft in the upcoming draft.

How is that going to be attractive for a FA to go to a lottery team that has no talent and a crappy owner.

How does trading Nash now help build a championship team? I don't see how improving draft position a few spots in this years draft is going to turn this team into a contender any sooner than letting Nash play out the rest of the season.

 

[desertdawg]

Nobody will sign with this franchise in 2012. At least nobody worth building a championship team around.

In 2012 we will have this very same team minus Nash, Carter, Hill and some others and whoever we draft in the upcoming draft.

How is that going to be attractive for a FA to go to a lottery team that has no talent and a crappy owner.

So the world is going to end in 2012?

 

[slinslin]

How does trading Nash now help build a championship team? I don't see how improving draft position a few spots in this years draft is going to turn this team into a contender any sooner than letting Nash play out the rest of the season.

A higher draft pick is always a better asset whether you believe it will be a good draft or not doesn't matter in that regard.

People always say the next draft will be weak but it has never been the case except probably in the Kwame Brown draft year.

The difference between picking at #8 and #15 is huge. At #15 the top forward prospects will all be gone (PF Jones,PF Sullinger, PF Williams, SF Jones and SF Barnes).

The top 2 PGs will likely be off the board too.

This draft is not going to be weak. If we could get Harrison Barnes with our pick, Kemba Walker or Brandon Knight with Orlandos pick or with moving up from Orlandos pick and trade up for one of the 3 top PF prospects then I would be absolutely excited about the future of this franchise but it is not going to happen.

And again the point is not their stance about trading Nash although getting 2 first round picks , one 20+ this year and one in the future would also help our future.

The problem is that Babby and Sarver have no plan to rebuild. They think this team is still good and that their mediocre free agent signings and draft picks will keep them at that level.

It seems they have not realized that eventually rebuilding through the draft is mandatory for them and how long it takes will come down not to ping pong balls but their decision making and scouting.

It also seems that Gentry hasn't realized how bad this team really is since he thinks they are still good and blowing it up would make it hard to become good again when in reality we are an old as dirt declining mediocre team already.

 

[JCSunsfan]

How does trading Nash now help build a championship team? I don't see how improving draft position a few spots in this years draft is going to turn this team into a contender any sooner than letting Nash play out the rest of the season.

I agree. Unless we are getting back quality young players, extra picks (good ones), or clearing space to go after a free agent (that we already have targeted, and no, there is not one on the market this summer that looks like a fit), then having the possibility of picking earlier in the draft does not make that much of a difference.