The Suns are a prime example of mismanagement!

[82CardsGrad]

For all the wrong reasons, the Suns and D'Antoni thought they found a new way to play the game, a new way to win championships... They completely shunned any shread of connection to the realities of this game. That while winning 60 games a year can be fun, and with the right set of thoroughbreds, actually pretty easy to do... However, to win in the playoffs and win Championships, historical realities are simply not to be shunned... Things like DEFENSE are imperative! The Suns have never once in the last 5 years or so, showed any credibility in this area. Nothing...
Things like being able to slow the game down and run an effective and productive half-court game... Again, the high-flying antics are fun and will produce W's in the regular season, but ALL Championship teams show time after time after time, that if you can D it up and can't control the game in the halfcourt set, you got nothing...

Thanks Suns for some exciting years... I moved to the Valley in '01 and instantly became a Suns fan, and for the most part, I've really enjoyed the ride... But this "team" is played...done...over... Nash can not be "da man" any longer...He can't play defense and he can't be effective enough in the halfcourt... Diaw? Bell? Barbosa? Just younger dudes who like Nash, can't play defense and can't execute in the half court... And sadly, Amare is right there with them...

Like like D'Antoni, but he needs to go... They need to start from scratch and build this team first, with a coach who understands how Championships are won... Mike ain't the guy...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Unfortunately, they don't give championships to the team with the best bottom line. But it's nice to know that his healthy bottom line will be just fine with some fans as the Suns head toward a nice long run of mediocrity.

The bottom line is championships.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Yes, that you are placing all of the Suns problems on the owner, when it is not all his fault. If anything, if you want to look at the owner, you look at the bottom line and you see that Sarver has been just as successful overall than Colangelo.

All nine of those decisions were made by Sarver. Im not blaming him for any decision he didn't make. You go back at every single one of those and realize that it really hurt us.

Nine financially driven decisions is three years. I can't remember any under Colangelo. Maybe the Jahidi White trade. Thats all i can remember.

 

[newfan101]

The bottom line is championships.

I see. Well then it's nice to know that some fans will take solace pointing to that fact while they watch Sarver run the team into the ground. Colangelo never won a championship, so bottom line, Sarver will always be, at a minimum, just as successful. Correct?

I guess using that philosophy, Bill Bidwill has been as successful as Colangelo too. Correct?

 

[da_suns_fan]

I see. Well then it's nice to know that some fans will take solace pointing to that fact while they watch Sarver run the team into the ground. Colangelo never won a championship, so bottom line, Sarver will always be, at a minimum, just as successful. Correct?

I guess using that philosophy, Bill Bidwill has been as successful as Colangelo too. Correct?

Its a valid argument, but we never thought that the Suns misfortunes were due to Colangelo choosing the teams financial bottom line over winning. All decisions were made for basketball purposes. Some of them were wrong, but we never doubted that they had winning basketball games in mind when he made them.

In fact, his fellow Diamondbacks owners ousted him for putting the team in a financial pickle in his quest to win a baseball championship (which he did).

 

[newfan101]

Its a valid argument, but we never thought that the Suns misfortunes were due to Colangelo choosing the teams financial bottom line over winning. All decisions were made for basketball purposes. Some of them were wrong, but we never doubted that they had winning basketball games in mind when he made them.

In fact, his fellow Diamondbacks owners ousted him for putting the team in a financial pickle in his quest to win a baseball championship (which he did).

Oh I agree 100%. I was being facetious. To me it's silly to put such a blanket argument (championship=success) on these types of discussions. There are different levels of success.

I've been a fan for well over 30 years, so I'm as sick of 50 and fade as anyone. But I'll take the Suns 50 and fade with a chance for a championship over the Cardinals 6-10 with a chance for a good draft pick any day. Yet some will still argue that, without a championship, they are inherently the same, an argument to which I will never understand.

My prediction is that the Sarver Suns will resemble the Cards and Clippers very soon. I could be wrong, but if his moves over the past 3 years, and especially this past year, are an indicator, the prospects look pretty bleak.

 

[BillsCarnage]

D'Antoni didn't ask to be GM, did he?

Did he tell Sarver to let Bryan Colangelo walk?

Lets list the history of Sarver blunders.

Am I forgetting anything?

I'm glad someone made the laundry list because i was going to as well, but not til the end of season.

I really don't have a problem with giving away the #1 for getting Goof's off the books. Memphis is doing the same thing in a way - cutting salary for a pending sale.

I also don't have too much of a problem with the trade to remove Grant's worthless and bloated contract. How they got that contract is another story.

However, i fear that removing Diaw's contract will have the same type of requirements.

The league (players, gm's, agents) have been playing the Suns like a fiddle since Sarver took over in one form or another.

If some of you think this season has taken a turn for the worse, next season is shaping up to be a real doozy. The Suns have a minimum of 8 (maybe 9 depending on Tucker) players under contract and are already at $70mil in salary. Can someone please explain how Sarver expects to sign 4 or 5 quality players and stay under the tax???

I can honestly see them trading Barbosa for peanuts and trying to fill the roster with vet mini's or D-league quality players with Barbosa's $6mil salary.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I see. Well then it's nice to know that some fans will take solace pointing to that fact while they watch Sarver run the team into the ground. Colangelo never won a championship, so bottom line, Sarver will always be, at a minimum, just as successful. Correct?

I guess using that philosophy, Bill Bidwill has been as successful as Colangelo too. Correct?

Nope, he has a championship, although there is a curse behind it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Oh I agree 100%. I was being facetious. To me it's silly to put such a blanket argument (championship=success) on these types of discussions. There are different levels of success.

I've been a fan for well over 30 years, so I'm as sick of 50 and fade as anyone. But I'll take the Suns 50 and fade with a chance for a championship over the Cardinals 6-10 with a chance for a good draft pick any day. Yet some will still argue that, without a championship, they are inherently the same, an argument to which I will never understand.

My prediction is that the Sarver Suns will resemble the Cards and Clippers very soon. I could be wrong, but if his moves over the past 3 years, and especially this past year, are an indicator, the prospects look pretty bleak.

You mentioned "bottom line." To me that is a blanket statement, and I use championships as the definition. Maybe we differ in what we consider the bottom line.

 

[newfan101]

Nope, he has a championship, although there is a curse behind it.

Bill Bidwill didn't own the team in 1947, the last time they won a championship. It was his dad.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Bill Bidwill didn't own the team in 1947, the last time they won a championship. It was his dad.

I don't think the curse is just against Bill. If he were to give his team to Michael, the curse would still be there.

 

[newfan101]

I'm glad someone made the laundry list because i was going to as well, but not til the end of season.

I really don't have a problem with giving away the #1 for getting Goof's off the books. Memphis is doing the same thing in a way - cutting salary for a pending sale.

I also don't have too much of a problem with the trade to remove Grant's worthless and bloated contract. How they got that contract is another story.

However, i fear that removing Diaw's contract will have the same type of requirements.

The league (players, gm's, agents) have been playing the Suns like a fiddle since Sarver took over in one form or another.

If some of you think this season has taken a turn for the worse, next season is shaping up to be a real doozy. The Suns have a minimum of 8 (maybe 9 depending on Tucker) players under contract and are already at $70mil in salary. Can someone please explain how Sarver expects to sign 4 or 5 quality players and stay under the tax???

I agree again. Unfortunately, the tax will be the least of everyone's concern when this team starts to lose games and be officially out of the championship picture. The merchandising, TV revenues, and ticket sales will all start to drop. Even if they're under the tax, Sarver’s financial bottom line will suffer.

I'm telling you, with the age of this team, lack of draft picks, etc... The prospects for a losing season in two years are very real. And when the cash registers stop ringing, the turnstiles stop turning, and TV turns away, Sarver is going to see red, whether he's paying the tax or not. If that happens, be prepared to see a slit you wrist, pull your hair out trade to get rid of Shaq's expiring contract go down in two years. Be prepared. And we'll have no lottery pick to ease the pain ... it was given away in the KT trade.

 

[da_suns_fan]

Colangelo has a baseball championship.

Bidwill was a waterboy when the Cardinals won theirs in 1940-something.

Jerry has a ring. Bidwill does not.

 

[82CardsGrad]

For all the wrong reasons, the Suns and D'Antoni thought they found a new way to play the game, a new way to win championships... They completely shunned any shread of connection to the realities of this game. That while winning 60 games a year can be fun, and with the right set of thoroughbreds, actually pretty easy to do... However, to win in the playoffs and win Championships, historical realities are simply not to be shunned... Things like DEFENSE are imperative! The Suns have never once in the last 5 years or so, showed any credibility in this area. Nothing...
Things like being able to slow the game down and run an effective and productive half-court game... Again, the high-flying antics are fun and will produce W's in the regular season, but ALL Championship teams show time after time after time, that if you can D it up and can't control the game in the halfcourt set, you got nothing...

Thanks Suns for some exciting years... I moved to the Valley in '01 and instantly became a Suns fan, and for the most part, I've really enjoyed the ride... But this "team" is played...done...over... Nash can not be "da man" any longer...He can't play defense and he can't be effective enough in the halfcourt... Diaw? Bell? Barbosa? Just younger dudes who like Nash, can't play defense and can't execute in the half court... And sadly, Amare is right there with them...

Like D'Antoni, but he needs to go... They need to start from scratch and build this team first, with a coach who understands how Championships are won... Mike ain't the guy...

Hmmm....

 

[21greatestever]

The crazy thing is the suns felt so strongly that they deserved to be the champs last year. Ok, then why make the trade for shaq "i can stop duncan" oneal? If your team was robbed why not bring it back intact. It doesn't make sense.

 

[green machine]

The crazy thing is the suns felt so strongly that they deserved to be the champs last year. Ok, then why make the trade for shaq "i can stop duncan" oneal? If your team was robbed why not bring it back intact. It doesn't make sense.

Because this year's team wasn't as good as last year's team before the trade. That, and the rest of the West got so much better that last year's team may not have even made it out of this year's West.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The crazy thing is the suns felt so strongly that they deserved to be the champs last year. Ok, then why make the trade for shaq "i can stop duncan" oneal? If your team was robbed why not bring it back intact. It doesn't make sense.

it was a different team when they traded for Shaq than the one that thought they deserved to be champions. That team ended when they traded KT and two first round picks for nothing. That was the trade that didn't make sense, but it did make cents... sadly, $ was the priority over winning.

 

[hsandhu]

Joe johnson's lack of extension and trading the #7 pick before we knew iggy (who we would've kept the pick for) was gonna be there are the two devastating management moves made.

both during the summer of 2004 one a huge mistake by sarver and one a horrible mistake by bryan colangelo. so we have the new and old regime screwing up.

criticism of every other move made not made since that point (kt trade to save money, diaw extension, etc...) are all superfluous. who cares, if we just made those two moves during 2004 we would be going for a repeat right now.

nash, amare, joe johnson, marion, raja, iggy, barbosa, we easily could have put together a package to get garnett and keep amare/nash and even ANOTHER stud like jj.

I remember bill simmons talking about this in a column a while back, and saying suns "fans you can now proceed to light yourselves on fire"

 

[Cheesebeef]

Joe johnson's lack of extension and trading the #7 pick before we knew iggy (who we would've kept the pick for) was gonna be there are the two devastating management moves made.

both during the summer of 2004 one a huge mistake by sarver and one a horrible mistake by bryan colangelo. so we have the new and old regime screwing up.

criticism of every other move made not made since that point (kt trade to save money, diaw extension, etc...) are all superfluous. who cares, if we just made those two moves during 2004 we would be going for a repeat right now.

nash, amare, joe johnson, marion, raja, iggy, barbosa, we easily could have put together a package to get garnett and keep amare/nash and even ANOTHER stud like jj.

I remember bill simmons talking about this in a column a while back, and saying suns "fans you can now proceed to light yourselves on fire"

agreed. jesus, can you imagine a starting lineup with Nash and JJ in the backcourt and KG and Amare in the front court. I could have played the three on that team and they could have won titles.

 

[hsandhu]

In my dreams I imagine nash, jj, hill, amare, kg as a starting 5.

And it ain't a pipe dream just two simple moves had to be made in '04. Remember the summer of '04 we were all jacked up on getting kobe, if we just made these two moves that were right there in front of us to do we would of had the dream starting 5.

If i could change one thing in suns history it would be the summer of '04, screw paxson, if we handled '04 correctly we'd be looking at paxson as the days of suns failure past like the sox now look at buckner.


For the love of all that is sacred, we were this damn close to still getting kg this summer. If only superstar shawn marion decided during the summer to go to boston instead of deciding in february to go to miami.

Aw screw it, we're cursed. At least the d' backs are the anti suns, look at the way they've amassed young talent and locked them in to contracts.

 

[newfan101]

And it ain't a pipe dream just two simple moves had to be made in '04. Remember the summer of '04 we were all jacked up on getting kobe, if we just made these two moves that were right there in front of us to do we would of had the dream starting 5.

If i could change one thing in suns history it would be the summer of '04, screw paxson, if we handled '04 correctly we'd be looking at paxson as the days of suns failure past like the sox now look at buckner.

Boy are you right about 2004. It goes even deeper than that.

That was also the year of the Googs trade, a trade made purely for tax savings. We gave away 2 1st's in that deal: the 15th pick that year, which could have been Josh Smith or JR Smith, and our own pick in 2005, which ended up being David Lee.

That was also the year of the Jahidi White trade, done in exchange for Brevin Knights expiring contract. It seemed innocuous at the time, yet was literally done a few weeks before gutting the team in the Marbury trade. It was minor, but that incredibly short sighted move cost the Suns a mid-first in 2005 in order to get rid of White's contract. That pick could have yielded Danny Granger or Hakim Warrik.

We also chose to not resign Antonio McDyess in order to keep enough money to sign another big name 2 or 3 ... in this case, Q.

So here is how 2004 really stacks up. We traded our lottery pick (Iguodala) and didn't resign McDyess at 4/24 million in order to have the cap space to sign Q Richardson at 6/45 million. Because of Q's signing and the huge sticker shock, Sarver subsequently failed to extend Joe Johnson at 6/50 million. We also gave away 2 picks that could have been Josh Smith and David Lee in exchange for tax savings, plus another good pick in 2005 to get rid of Jahadi White.

So instead of having Iguodala's and Smith's rookie contracts, Mcdyess for 6 million a year, Joe Johnson for under 9 million a year, plus 2 more picks in 2005, they ended up with Q, tax savings, Jahidi White for 6 months of a lost season, a late 1st in 2005 which was used to get rid of the before mentioned Q, and the Sausage king. Q was later traded with a 1st for Kurt Thomas, who lasted 2 years before being traded along with 2 1st's to Seattle. They also got James Jones, who was traded with a 1st to get rid of his contract, and are now stuck with Boris Diaw, who will probably be traded away along with the Atlanta 1st in order to get rid of his contract.

Yep. The Steve Nash signing glossed over the worst managed year in Suns history.

 

[hsandhu]

Ah yes, I forgot about all the giving away of picks during that year as well. Just makes it sadder (especially when you note the players available there).

Horrible management by both the colangelos and sarver.

 

[Raindog]

Ah yes, I forgot about all the giving away of picks during that year as well. Just makes it sadder (especially when you note the players available there).

Horrible management by both the colangelos and sarver.

Well to be fair, those moves were likely done at the behest of Sarver. Giving away draft picks for nothing and/or dumping contracts was never the Colangelo's MO up until Sarver came on board (or was about to come on board) as owner.

 

[Ollie]

Boy are you right about 2004. It goes even deeper than that.

That was also the year of the Googs trade, a trade made purely for tax savings. We gave away 2 1st's in that deal: the 15th pick that year, which could have been Josh Smith or JR Smith, and our own pick in 2005, which ended up being David Lee.

Nope, that's actually worse.

We gave up the 2 Knicks picks we received in the Marbury trade : the 16th pick that year (as you said) AND an heavily protected Knicks pick... 'til 2010, when the Knicks will end up in the bottom 5 of the league by heavily cutting salaries to have a shot at Lebron or D-Wade.

Jazz fans are litteraly rolling on the floor laughing at us.

 

[BillsCarnage]

Well to be fair, those moves were likely done at the behest of Sarver. Giving away draft picks for nothing and/or dumping contracts was never the Colangelo's MO up until Sarver came on board (or was about to come on board) as owner.

Those moves were made to keep the salary low for Sarver's purchase. Memphis is doing a very similar thing (cutting salary) now for their sale.