The Warner of Old

[Cheesebeef]

You will be trying to sign players for multiple years and not just one. Yes, it's not now, but it'll affect your cap in the future.

but in the future we'll know if a) Matt's worth it and b) if he is, we can restructure/extend his deal like we did with Fitz.

but we're talking about NOW.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

but in the future we'll know if a) Matt's worth it and b) if he is, we can restructure/extend his deal like we did with Fitz.

but we're talking about NOW.

I'm talking about both, and I do want to see what ML has now. Not looking into the future is a tad bit foolish.

 

[moklerman]

and if he doesn't? this is his last deal. i wouldn't blame the guy for going after all he can get but I just don't want us to offer him that much. We've seen his ceiling.

Ultimately, I was really hoping for an Elway situation for Warner. I didn't think it would be a good idea for him to be shouldering the responsibility for the team's success and a good running game and good enough defense was what I thought the Cards would have this year.

Not offering Warner a contract has it's benefits but does the monetary gain really benefit what letting Warner walk would do to the team? I think he's a big part of the team leadership on the field and letting him walk and handing it all over to Leinart may cause some fallout.

Warner signing for a starter's pay may indeed cost the Cardinals some needed depth across the board but I would take Warner's potential contract over Dockett's at this point. Like it or not it's an offensive based team so the QB needs to be taken care of before the best player on a poor defense IMO.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

No offense Mokler and to a lesser extent IA but you are "Warner fans" and then "Cardinal fans". Cheese - and most everybody else on this board - is more concerned cheering for a winner year in and year out. Your arguments can't be taken seriously because of your obvious bias.

I appreciate your fandom and your opinion is warranted. But the reality is if Warner moves on you'll be on another teams message board and we will still be here.

The more we see of Warner the more its the same. I am grateful for what he has done this year but I also belive he puts the defense and running game in a place where its impossible to be successful consistently. Football is not played in a vacum and for all his good - he brings alot of bad. Especially against the good teams.

Matt's not perfect but he seems to come up big against big teams (SEA and PIT last year and Chicago the year before) and he has shown enough where its just not smart to put 8 - 10 million a year in a entirely too flawed 38 year old QB. It's just not worth it no matter how you slice it.

Ultimately I will leave this up to Wiz and hopefully he uses the franchises future as a key decision making point. If he decides to continue to go with Warner then I will defer and my best guess is that MAatt has shown NOTHING and they have to ride it out with Kurt - flaws or not.

But I don't think thats going to be the case. Point is I will be here one way or the other.

Can you say the same?

 

[jefftheshark]

No offense Mokler and to a lesser extent IA but you are "Warner fans" and then "Cardinal fans". Cheese - and most everybody else on this board - is more concerned cheering for a winner year in and year out. Your arguments can't be taken seriously because of your obvious bias.

I appreciate your fandom and your opinion is warranted. But the reality is if Warner moves on you'll be on another teams message board and we will still be here.

The more we see of Warner the more its the same. I am grateful for what he has done this year but I also belive he puts the defense and running game in a place where its impossible to be successful consistently. Football is not played in a vacum and for all his good - he brings alot of bad. Especially against the good teams.

Matt's not perfect but he seems to come up big against big teams (SEA and PIT last year and Chicago the year before) and he has shown enough where its just not smart to put 8 - 10 million a year in a entirely too flawed 38 year old QB. It's just not worth it no matter how you slice it.

Ultimately I will leave this up to Wiz and hopefully he uses the franchises future as a key decision making point. If he decides to continue to go with Warner then I will defer and my best guess is that MAatt has shown NOTHING and they have to ride it out with Kurt - flaws or not.

But I don't think thats going to be the case. Point is I will be here one way or the other.

Can you say the same?

+1

JTS

 

[IAWarnerFan]

No offense Mokler and to a lesser extent IA but you are "Warner fans" and then "Cardinal fans". Cheese - and most everybody else on this board - is more concerned cheering for a winner year in and year out. Your arguments can't be taken seriously because of your obvious bias.

I appreciate your fandom and your opinion is warranted. But the reality is if Warner moves on you'll be on another teams message board and we will still be here.

The more we see of Warner the more its the same. I am grateful for what he has done this year but I also belive he puts the defense and running game in a place where its impossible to be successful consistently. Football is not played in a vacum and for all his good - he brings alot of bad. Especially against the good teams.

Matt's not perfect but he seems to come up big against big teams (SEA and PIT last year and Chicago the year before) and he has shown enough where its just not smart to put 8 - 10 million a year in a entirely too flawed 38 year old QB. It's just not worth it no matter how you slice it.

Ultimately I will leave this up to Wiz and hopefully he uses the franchises future as a key decision making point. If he decides to continue to go with Warner then I will defer and my best guess is that MAatt has shown NOTHING and they have to ride it out with Kurt - flaws or not.

But I don't think thats going to be the case. Point is I will be here one way or the other.

Can you say the same?

That's BS! I've been a Cardinals fan for 25 years. How long has Warner been here? Sure Warner is my favorite player and I want him to get a fair shake, but that doesn't make me any less of a Cardinals fan.

And about being on other fan boards, I've always had two teams and honestly it made me feel a bit better during the rough times. I was a Jerry Rice fan from his rookie year until he retired and I do hang around a 49ers board. So, if Warner were to play somewhere else I'd still pop up around here and where's he's at. Honestly, less here tho.

 

[az jam]

Matt's not perfect but he seems to come up big against big teams (SEA and PIT last year and Chicago the year before) and he has shown enough where its just not smart to put 8 - 10 million a year in a entirely too flawed 38 year old QB. It's just not worth it no matter how you slice it.

This to me is the bottom line. Warner's age is against him for another big contract. Leinart needs to play. We can win the West with him.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

That's BS! I've been a Cardinals fan for 25 years. How long has Warner been here? Sure Warner is my favorite player and I want him to get a fair shake, but that doesn't make me any less of a Cardinals fan.

And about being on other fan boards, I've always had two teams and honestly it made me feel a bit better during the rough times. I was a Jerry Rice fan from his rookie year until he retired and I do hang around a 49ers board. So, if Warner were to play somewhere else I'd still pop up around here and where's he's at. Honestly, less here tho.

You kind of made my point for me.

There are different types of fans and I am not one to say anyone is better or worse then the other.

But my opinions and thoughts are made with the team in mind. I like certain players not on the Cards and there are certain players that if they left the team (Q for instance) I would always cheer for.

But I follow the Arizona Cardinals first and foremost.

I cheer for the front of the jersey - not the back. So while I appreciate all types of fans in a community like this I'm going to be more like a cheese in most of these instances in I care about the franchise's well being and thats what guides my thought process.

 

[Kablansky]

This to me is the bottom line. Warner's age is against him for another big contract. Leinart needs to play. We can win the West with him.

I have come to grips with this thought as well

 

[IAWarnerFan]

If it was 1999-2000 and this was St. Louis would you be saying the same thing? Or is it his age? Keeping in mind his stats are very similar.

 

[Mitch]

If it was 1999-2000 and this was St. Louis would you be saying the same thing? Or is it his age? Keeping in mind his stats are very similar.

Give it a rest, IA. Warner is the best thing that happened to the Cardinal offense in decades and unfortunately this is all lost on some of the posters here. There's no sense arguing it anymore. Some people just don't get it. And I would be willing to bet that they are armchair fans who have never played QB before, and thus have absolutely no clue as to difficult the position is.

The guy is at the top of the NFC in passing...he's thrown for 300+ yards in 45% of ALL the games he's started, won a Super Bowl and two league MVPs, but he's the problem in Arizona. Unreal.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Give it a rest, IA. Warner is the best thing that happened to the Cardinal offense in decades and unfortunately this is all lost on some of the posters here. There's no sense arguing it anymore. Some people just don't get it. And I would be willing to bet that they are armchair fans who have never played QB before, and thus have absolutely no clue as to difficult the position is.

The guy is at the top of the NFC in passing...he's thrown for 300+ yards in 45% of ALL the games he's started, won a Super Bowl and two league MVPs, but he's the problem in Arizona. Unreal.

Will do and thanks!

 

[Cheesebeef]

If it was 1999-2000 and this was St. Louis would you be saying the same thing? Or is it his age? Keeping in mind his stats are very similar.

it's the fact that a) we don't have a HOF running back and the best O-line in football and b) we don't have the league's number 1 ranked defense like they did back then and due to the nature of QB contracts, we won't be able to even come close to shoring up the D or the O which could help compensate for Warner's penchant for turnovers (as he's LEADING the league in them).

we know the ceiling that this team has - we're looking at it. ultimately I trust Whiz's decision on the matter and if Warner takes a cap room friendly deal, I'm all for him coming back, but simply throwing 8-10 million at him while more than likely losing Dansby, being unable to address desperately needed pass-rushers/starting LBer/any kind of depth and hamstringing us as far as moves to bolster the O-line would only keep this team running in place at best and likely we get a little worse because the D, as bad as it is now, falls off a freaking cliff.

 

[Evil Ash]

Give it a rest, IA. Warner is the best thing that happened to the Cardinal offense in decades and unfortunately this is all lost on some of the posters here. There's no sense arguing it anymore. Some people just don't get it. And I would be willing to bet that they are armchair fans who have never played QB before, and thus have absolutely no clue as to difficult the position is.

The guy is at the top of the NFC in passing...he's thrown for 300+ yards in 45% of ALL the games he's started, won a Super Bowl and two league MVPs, but he's the problem in Arizona. Unreal.

He's not THE problem but he can be a problem. He's 37 years old and still has a tendency to turnover the ball at the worst possible time against good teams (7 turnovers the past 3 games). He also can hold onto the ball for too long (which often results in him fumbling it ... so much for the magic gloves) and he's very slow to hand the ball off which doesn't help our already poor running game.

He has helped us this year. His accuracy when he's making the right decision is unbelievable. However he'll be 38 years old next year and he's not worth getting rid of good YOUNG players to sign him to an $8 million - $10 million per year deal. If he wants to come back for around half that w/incentives then I'll welcome him back with open arms.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Give it a rest, IA. Warner is the best thing that happened to the Cardinal offense in decades and unfortunately this is all lost on some of the posters here. There's no sense arguing it anymore. Some people just don't get it. And I would be willing to bet that they are armchair fans who have never played QB before, and thus have absolutely no clue as to difficult the position is.

The guy is at the top of the NFC in passing...he's thrown for 300+ yards in 45% of ALL the games he's started, won a Super Bowl and two league MVPs, but he's the problem in Arizona. Unreal.

Its really condescending when you talk down to people just because they don't happen to agree with your point of view. You try to do it in the same 'holier than thou' attitude that your hero exudes, but you belittle people nontheless.

No, I didn't play qb, and maybe some of the x & o stuff goes over my head, but my opinion on Kurt Warner is different than yours and I'm not stupid because of it.

 

[nashman]

This team would be BAD without Warner! KW is the reason we are where we are, what a shock he has a bad game, as well as the whole damn team, and people want to get rid of him. 2 weeks ago people were clammering we need to get his extension locked up, now its time to let him walk? really? What we need to do is have a defense than can get an average team like Philly of the damn field and not give up 48 points! What we need is an Oline that will run block well enough that we can run the ball at least some. KW is one of the things we don't need to worry about right now give him time and a decent running game and we can destroy teams.

 

[Cards_Campos]

Give it a rest, IA. Warner is the best thing that happened to the Cardinal offense in decades and unfortunately this is all lost on some of the posters here. There's no sense arguing it anymore. Some people just don't get it. And I would be willing to bet that they are armchair fans who have never played QB before, and thus have absolutely no clue as to difficult the position is.

The guy is at the top of the NFC in passing...he's thrown for 300+ yards in 45% of ALL the games he's started, won a Super Bowl and two league MVPs, but he's the problem in Arizona. Unreal.

Mitch...Exactly why I have basically stopped posting here....Still read it...But man....it is like blaming General Patton that he let a few soldiers die. I mean imagine if he could actually make a decision on who to throw to...in say 4 seconds....Off Line is atrocious....and teams no he is going to throw 45 times a game...and yet he completes 70% of them which is close to an NFL record....and yet ...oh well......These guys would look at Jessica Simpson and complain about her elbows.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Give it a rest, IA. Warner is the best thing that happened to the Cardinal offense in decades and unfortunately this is all lost on some of the posters here. There's no sense arguing it anymore. Some people just don't get it. And I would be willing to bet that they are armchair fans who have never played QB before, and thus have absolutely no clue as to difficult the position is.

The guy is at the top of the NFC in passing...he's thrown for 300+ yards in 45% of ALL the games he's started, won a Super Bowl and two league MVPs, but he's the problem in Arizona. Unreal.

Mitch I love ya but tell me the best win of Warner's Cardinals tenure?

Was it the Cowboys game where we scored 2 ST touchdowns? Or maybe the maybe the Bills game where the defense knocked out the other teams starting QB.

He as played like crap the last three weeks and was not the reason we won in Seattle (he looked much worse then even his stat line would indicate) and was DEFINITELY a big part of the problem against the two best defenses we faced in NY and Philly.

Kurt has played well this year and when he was limiting his turnovers it was all good. To his credit he was doing things that hadn't been done here in the past. Winning games we were SUPPOSED to win. And when we do clinch he was a huge part of it.

But in spite of his numbers you won't get me to agree to three points.

1) He is a hinderance to both the running game and the defense. I have detailed this in many posts about the running game so I won't rehash it. We can talk about how bad the defense was last week but we can also talk about how demoralizing it is to have to defend your side of the field on 2 two out of the first three possessions on the road where the team needed to start fast. If Kurt was as good as you think he is he would have matched McNabb after that first drive.

2) He is at least a little bit of product of a system and the players around him. Don't you find it the least bit conicidental that he has to a) throw the ball 50 times a game and b) have a great pass pro and WR's around him to put up the numbers he does? And when one of those things isn't working - i.e. pass pro breaks down or WR's are not making all word catchs he can't recover. I suppose you could say that about alot of QB's but for some reason the REAL elite guys don't end up having a 3 -4 turnover game like Warner inevitablly does when things break down.

3) Since he left the Rams he hasn't taken it to a good defense. His best showing in that regards was against a Raven team that was expecting a different gameplan coming in. And to remind you we lost that game. He gets his pinball numbers against bad teams then throws up a mediocre to bad game against any defense worth a damn. You can say all you want about him playing aganst defenses that don't have to prepare for the run but as I mentioned - I think he is part of the problem with that.

Listen Warner is more bad then good. I love him for winning us our first division title in ever and for the exposure, class, and numbers he has put up this year.

But like Kitna after his close to "MVP" year with the Bengals and the Packers with Brett Farve last year - even if it costs us a couple wins next year (which I am not sure it will with this division) - its time to go to the young guy.

So my question to you is this: Please justify to me how it is smart to pay 8-10 mill for at least 2 years to a 38 year old who has shown nothing to think he can beat a good team on the road at the potential cost of real cornerstones like Q, Dansby, Dockett, and Wilson. Especially with a viable option on the bench?

Wouldn't you HAVE to win a Super Bowl to justify that kind of attrition and stunting of development to Matt? Can you honestly say you think Kurt is going to be able to take us there in the next two years (and if you can I'd love to hear what your'e seeing).

I sure as hell can't.......

 

[Mitch]

Mitch...Exactly why I have basically stopped posting here....Still read it...But man....it is like blaming General Patton that he let a few soldiers die. I mean imagine if he could actually make a decision on who to throw to...in say 4 seconds....Off Line is atrocious....and teams no he is going to throw 45 times a game...and yet he completes 70% of them which is close to an NFL record....and yet ...oh well......These guys would look at Jessica Simpson and complain about her elbows.

Amen, CC.

Imagine how good Warner and the team would look if we had a defense that actually could tackle and defend people game to game...

 

[Arizona's Finest]

And Nashman, 82, Mokler, Campos, and IA - I expect all of you to respond to that post above.....

I respect your opnion but loving Warner just for loving Warner ain't going to cut it. Not next year at least.

 

[Mitch]

And Nashman, 82, Mokler, Campos, and IA - I expect all of you to respond to that post above.....

I respect your opnion but loving Warner just for loving Warner ain't going to cut it. Not next year at least.

Your ignorance is astounding.

 

[Evil Ash]

This team would be BAD without Warner! KW is the reason we are where we are, what a shock he has a bad game, as well as the whole damn team, and people want to get rid of him. 2 weeks ago people were clammering we need to get his extension locked up, now its time to let him walk? really? What we need to do is have a defense than can get an average team like Philly of the damn field and not give up 48 points! What we need is an Oline that will run block well enough that we can run the ball at least some. KW is one of the things we don't need to worry about right now give him time and a decent running game and we can destroy teams.

The problem is turnovers. With a poor run game and an average defense, taking care of the ball is the TOP PRIORITY. Even with a great team turnovers can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Warner has gone into his old bad habits of throwing into douple/triple coverage and holding onto the ball for too long which promptly leads to him fumbling the ball.

I want him back but to me, he's not the top priority. Q, Adrian Wilson, and Dansby are higher priorities for me. He'll be 38 years old next year and still has bad habits which don't seem to be improving. To me that means he's not worth $8 - $10 million per year. If he wants that much, I'd prefer we move on to Leinart.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Your ignorance is astounding.

Mitch - that's kind of inappropriate.

Please respond to the post piece by piece and have a general discussion here. I am open minded. I can be wrong. But I want to hear factual evidence on why I am.

Name calling is below you brother. You put alot of work into your posts so respond in kind.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Mitch - that's kind of inappropriate.

Please respond to the post piece by piece and have a general discussion here. I am open minded. I can be wrong. But I want to hear factual evidence on why I am.

Name calling is below you brother. You put alot of work into your posts so respond in kind.

I'm going to hum 'Killing me softly with his song' by Roberta Flack while I wait with you AF

 

[az jam]

Your ignorance is astounding.

Why do you continue rip people on this board that don't agree with you on Warner??? Do you really feel that we should sign and pay a 38 year old qb $8 to $10 million per year while we have a "potential" franchise qb sitting on the bench in a very weak conference?? Additionally, we need the $$'s to get contracts for Boldin and Dansby. I'm not knocking Warner starting this year even with his subpar performances against the better teams; I'm just saying let's look to the future and put our hands in Leinart next year.

You seem to have no objectivity at all when it comes to fans that have a difference of opinion with you on Warner. I like Kurt but this thread is more about next year than today. The Packers made a tough decision to go with Rodgers instead of Farve. In the long run that is a good decision and IMO we should do the same replacing Warner with Leinart next year. Please don't call me an idiot for suggesting this. Also please note that I am older than you and remeber when Chicago Cards had Ollie Matson as their feature back