The Warner of Old

[Russ Smith]

Just get a new defensive coordinator. That worked out well with our offensive line.

Cheese is right, if Graves signs Warner to top 10 QB money we will lose Dansby and will be unable to upgrade the talent where it is most lacking on the lines.

Agreed. you can make a case for the genius of throwing big money at say Asomugha and Shane Lechler but in the end if we don't improve the lines we're still going to have issues. I actually think the OL is weaker than the DL mainly because I like Watson and I think Campbell has a future. On the OL I've really become disenchanted with both Brown and Lutui, they just don't seem to mentally have what it takes to play mistake free football, and having them next to each other is a disaster. Sendlein is ok but an upgrade there would make sense too. I'm not a huge Wells or gandy fan but I think they're the least of our problems right now.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Agreed. you can make a case for the genius of throwing big money at say Asomugha and Shane Lechler but in the end if we don't improve the lines we're still going to have issues. I actually think the OL is weaker than the DL mainly because I like Watson and I think Campbell has a future. On the OL I've really become disenchanted with both Brown and Lutui, they just don't seem to mentally have what it takes to play mistake free football, and having them next to each other is a disaster. Sendlein is ok but an upgrade there would make sense too. I'm not a huge Wells or gandy fan but I think they're the least of our problems right now.

I agree, Russ. I think what has really caused us to struggle lately is teams that are able to bring pressure on KW with 4 guys severely limits our options for passing as they are able to drop more people into coverage. Our O line just isn't stout enough for opposing teams to have to blitz. I won't go into the running game blocking

 

[Cheesebeef]

#4 in points and #6 in yards in 1999 and #7 in points and #3 in yards in '01 according to pro-football-reference.com.

according to that same site, for total team defense, they were ranked #4 and #3 overall (same for Yahoo for 2001). Sorry, it was from memory that I thought they were #1. Was off a little bit. Still no reason to say how completely meaningless my post was.

And points is all that really matters as far as I'm concerned.
Which stat's am I ignoring? Of course I'm not going to agree with misleading statements or ideas like the "he's leading the league in turnovers" when they're taken out of context or not viewed objectively.

is he not leading the league in turnovers? Yes or no?

My problem is that you make it a blanket statement and use it to try and illustrate how obvious it is that he's a turnover machine when in fact his rate of turnovers is very acceptable.

No, your problem is that you take ANY kind of criticism about Warner personally and start questioning people's sanity, calling them absurd or telling them they're taking things out of context. That being said, even adjusting his numbers for pass attempts, in that chart someone brought up, he's STILL in the bottom half of the league as far as his turnover rate. How is being in the bottom half of anything acceptable, much less VERY acceptable?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

4. I think Kurt Warner is rapidly playing himself out of all those nice things -- like a third MVP, like a winning January -- he'd played himself into through the first 10 games of the year. At some point, an MVP has to win a game he shouldn't win. Warner hasn't had one of those yet this year, and though he's played very well overall in engineering the Cards' 7-5 record, he's been downright bad in big games on the road, including throwing interceptions to end the first two drives at Philadelphia Thursday night.

From Peter King.

Of course we ride him out this year but it would be stupid to pay him big money and hand him the job next year. Just stupid.

And Mokler I am going to get to your post. I am at work but I'll make the time to respond as I have a lot of difference of opinion with what you wrote.

 

[conraddobler]

Matt may or may not be our QB of the future but KW is certainly not given his age.

So play Matt next year and figure it out, cut the strings, we would be better off if we had to balance the team out to win.

The question Whiz was asked about Warner and paying him the money didn't make me all warm and fuzzy inside.

This grapsing at straws thing of not wanting to play the young guy will end up getting you fired more times than not.

If you go with Warner and he fades into oblivion just as you start Matt then you can't afford to have a guy with limted starts starting the team regresses and you get fired.

I think he better figure out that he needs to cut KW loose, figure out if Matt is it or not next year.

We're not some running powerhouse you can plug in any QB to and win, although I think it'd be smart to head that way.

 

[john h]

All I'm saying is that if this defense did a good job of stoping the Eagles, the outcome would have been a lot different. Yes, KW struggled at the start but with no running game and no defense I don't think you should be hard on the QB.

How much money did we leave on the table in Cap Space? I have no idea? If we left 10 mil there then that could have purchased us at least one good defensive lineman or more. I hope we did not leave any money as it would show we are not yet committed to winning even though we are selling out. The fans have answered the call. Has ownership? I have no idea but unless they are in this for a super bowl we will never get there.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

My issue with Kurt's recent performance is the same issue I had with Jake so many times, it's not just the turnovers, it's that he's bunching them, and that some of them are so completely unnecessary. The 3rd one against the Eagles who cares, throwing deep trying to make a play, stuff happens. But the first 2 were complete head scratchers, how can a veteran QB with his resume throw into triple coverage directly to the defense(first pick)? how can he so badly overthrow Urban and then apparently (hard to know for sure) complain to Urban as if it was his fault the ball was so high it was tipped and picked. even if he ran the wrong route, when that ball was released he knew where Urban was and threw high.

That's the mystery for me its as if every now and then Kurt just forgets the idea of protect the ball and just wings it. Overall he's played really well. There's a definite dropoff when he plays outdoors (has a 130 rating indoors a 93 rating outdoors) but with the exception of 2 games, (Jets and Eagles) he's played well enough to keep us in games all year.

I just worry that if we get to a road playoff, we're going to see bad Kurt again forcing balls into traffic. I really hope the Eagles game got that out of his system for a while.

Great points. When guys aren't making plays for him he tries to do too much and costs us the game. And good defenses will 9 times out of 10 be able to get to the QB and/or keep track of WR's. And then he we are out of the game.

Listen Kurt deserves the rest of the season. I just think it wold be fool hardy to tie more money and time into him when - in my opinion -he can't take us to the next level.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Warner=Jake

Mitch=Tango

Please Chris, you are better than this.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Please Chris, you are better than this.

The last few weeks Warner has been Jake without the mobility, right down to even tossing a freaking shuttle pass on the run into coverage (against the Eagles).

As far as giving him a new contract, people should recall the MVP season of Rich Gannon.

 

[nashman]

Cheese did you honestly call AP a HOF RB? Really? Thats just about oh I don't know 10 years premature. So in your eyes Edge is not a HOF RB but a young AP who really hasn't done anything to make him HOF worthy is a HOF RB...umm ok! I respectively disagree.

 

[Evil Ash]

Cheese did you honestly call AP a HOF RB? Really? Thats just about oh I don't know 10 years premature. So in your eyes Edge is not a HOF RB but a young AP who really hasn't done anything to make him HOF worthy is a HOF RB...umm ok! I respectively disagree.

Edge is a HOF back whose best days are way behind him.

 

[moklerman]

5,000 yards, 70% completion, 32 TD, 15 INT 100 rating(projected).

That's what everyone is talking about getting rid of.

Think about that for minute.

 

[nashman]

EvilAsh it wasn't a question of whether some feel Edge is done, fact is he IS a HOF back and AP is not currently and may not end up being. Yet Cheese likes to say Edge is not a HOF back yet he is proclaiming a very young AP who hasn't done enough in the NFL to be talked about as a HOF back.

 

[Mitch]

5,000 yards, 70% completion, 32 TD, 15 INT 100 rating(projected).

That's what everyone is talking about getting rid of.

Think about that for minute.

Bingo!

Good job, Mokler!

 

[Russ Smith]

The last few weeks Warner has been Jake without the mobility, right down to even tossing a freaking shuttle pass on the run into coverage (against the Eagles).

As far as giving him a new contract, people should recall the MVP season of Rich Gannon.

That brought back a memory. Thursday night we're watching the game at my girlfriend's sisters house. I'm watching with 3 Filipino guys, one is her brother in law, huge football fan totally understands the sport. One is younger and grew up watching football so he too understands it. The 3rd guy grew up in the Philippines and has seen football just in the last few years, readily admits he doesn't understand it.

So Warner tries to flip that ball forward and the 3 of us who know football all immediately groan and talk about what a dangerous play it was. So the novice says "if the other team had caught that would they get to keep the ball?" We all say yes, would have been an interception. So he says, "why would that guy throw the ball like that is that better than just getting tackled?"

The 3 of us were at a complete loss on how to explain to him why a 37 year old veteran QB would have risked that because honestly there is no explanation. His novice opinion was dead on, what possible rationale would a player have for taking that risk there?

 

[joeshmo]

As far as giving him a new contract, people should recall the MVP season of Rich Gannon.

Not saying it will end up like that, I cant make that judgement yet myself. But that is about as good comparison to be careful what you wish storyline. Same exact age, same amount of yards projected (just under 5000), less TD's but way fewer INT's, about a 100 passer rating, and just under 70% completion %.

 

[Russ Smith]

So if the Gannon comparison holds, we get to the Superbowl, but then get blown out by Pittsburgh because they know our stuff because Whiz worked for them before?

 

[Cards_Campos]

Man I just wanted to read the site and root for the cards...and this thread came up :/

You don't buy an old engine so you can use the money to buy new seats and a radio.

Warner is stability. Yes he throws an int here and there.....Does anyone watch the Steelers from this site??? Ben roethlisberger has 13 TD's and 12 int's...He constantly throws bad INT's and yet he is 9-3 and has a Super Bowl ring. Tony Romo has atleast 2 bad turnovers a game...and yet everyone praises him. Warner is NOT the problem. We need another shut down quick corner and a few offensive lineman....THATS REALLY IT. We cause the most turnovers in the league.....We just get burned to often...But a Champ Bailey or Nate Clements would drastically change that. We need two stud lineman to open just a few holes and to give Warner maybe 1 second longer. Thats it...rigght there... I gaurantee if we had those 2 pieces we would be 9-3 right now....and sitting at the 2 seed.

Man we lost to Washington on the Road because of a bad bounce....Had Carolina Beat...and Hung with the FREAKIN Super Bowl CHAMPS....and we didn't play WELL. So we had 2 bad games. Cleveland who cant beat a high school team whipped the Giants....and the Jets just got whipped.

It is amazing how many fans here critisize Warner....He gets Pummeled every game and yet stands in the pocket throwing darts and lasers to Recievers who are usually blanketed. Teams know we cant gain 1 yd rushing even if the defense gives them a 35 inch head start.

Our team has always been talented...it is we lose the whacky games or choke away games. This year we have held our own so far....Lets re evaluate the team after the season.....

What makes us so called Warner fans so irate...atleast me...Is that you guys hide in a hole and jump out after a bad game DURING the season....Like The Coach is going to Bench a Guy who is in THE TOP 3 of MVP's right now....I sit here in astonishment that a guy who is nearly on PACE to break 2 NFL records is being discussed to be benched for a GUY who is more known for Sucking down Beer Bongs with Marginally attractive College girls?!?!?!

IF after the season you bring up this thread maybe it might hold more weight....But to try and derail a 7-5 Division leading, MVP candidate Quarterbacked team...is really Ludicrous. Just my humble Opinion.

 

[Cheesebeef]

5,000 yards, 70% completion, 32 TD, 15 INT 100 rating(projected).

That's what everyone is talking about getting rid of.

Think about that for minute.

I love that the guy who complains about "misleading stats" continues to year after year leave off lost fumbles when he posts these things.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

5,000 yards, 70% completion, 32 TD, 15 INT 100 rating(projected).

That's what everyone is talking about getting rid of.

Think about that for minute.

You love those stats don't ya?

Well here's one for you Mokler.

The Arizona Cardinals are 12–20 with a winning percentage of .375 in games that Warner has started.

That one won't get you any fantasy points either

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese did you honestly call AP a HOF RB? Really? Thats just about oh I don't know 10 years premature. So in your eyes Edge is not a HOF RB but a young AP who really hasn't done anything to make him HOF worthy is a HOF RB...umm ok! I respectively disagree.

HOF caliber is what I meant because the guy has been dominant at his position since he came into the league.

 

[Russ Smith]

HOF caliber is what I meant because the guy has been dominant at his position since he came into the league.

Only 3 guys in history gained more yards in their first 25 games, and some pretty impressive names at that, ironically I think Edge was one of the 3.

 

[Cheesebeef]

EvilAsh it wasn't a question of whether some feel Edge is done, fact is he IS a HOF back

this is a FACT? I think it's a strong likelihood but he's yet to be inducted into the hall and hasn't done much during the last three years to make his case any stronger.

and AP is not currently and may not end up being. Yet Cheese likes to say Edge is not a HOF back yet he is proclaiming a very young AP who hasn't done enough in the NFL to be talked about as a HOF back.

I don't say Edge isn't a HOF back. I say Edge isn't PLAYING LIKE A HOF back anymore. Meanwhile, AP is playing like a HOF back right now. I'm talking about the level of play RIGHT NOW, not their careers.

 

[moklerman]

You love those stats don't ya?

They're a good place to start an evaluation.

The Arizona Cardinals are 12–20 with a winning percentage of .375 in games that Warner has started.

So you're saying you'd prefer Kerry Collins? He's the best QB in the league right now because "he" is 11-1, right?

I love that the guy who complains about "misleading stats" continues to year after year leave off lost fumbles when he posts these things.

Quick, how many fumbles does Roethlisberger have? Favre? Manning? I bet you have no idea how many fumbles any other QB in the league has.

QB--fumbles/pass attempt
Favre 1/39
Romo 1/42.9
Roethlisberger 1/42.9
Garcia 1/45.1
Rodgers 1/50.5
Warner 1/52.4
Rivers 1/59.5
Collins 1/65.6
Campbell 1/75
Brees 1/78.5

These are all QB's that are on passing teams and are generally considered secure in their starting position and other than maybe Favre, I never hear anything about thier fumbles. No one ever brings up their total turnovers and 99% of people who talk about QB's usually just chalk up the fumbles as a part of playing the position.

Warner has certainly had stretches in his career where his fumbling was far too high in rate and total and was a genuine issue. That isn't the case this year or last. He isn't excellent at never fumbling like Peyton but very few QB's are.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is entirely false. There IS a system because Warner has helped Haley and Whis in playing to the team's strengths. Their system was a lame duck than neither Warner or Leinart could get to be productive. Whis and Haley would be perfect for Minnesota. Warner has shown time and again that he is coachable and willing to adapt to a coach's gameplan and he has succeeded in so many different systems it's very uniformed to pigeon-hole him into a "turnover prone gunslinger". Until the o-line starts blocking better and until theirs an inkling of a running game, it isn't fair to blame Warner for the team's struggles.

They have moved in the direction where they have to pass 50 times a game because of him. As he was quoted as saying after the philly game "Its tough having to drop back 50 times a game and not turnover the ball" - yeah no ish Kurt. But weren't you the one saying you want to throw it almost everytime? Aren't you calling the plays 90% of the time at the line like was reported?

Sounds kinda contradictory to me. I think Wiz is of the mindset that he wants to run but he has a QB that needs to sling the ball 4 out of every 5 downs. Yes it is effective against bad teams. But good teams stop you on 3rd down. How is that not effecting the system?

And "until the oline starts blocking better?" We are one of the the top 10 pass pro teams in the league and maybe higher with how much we drop back. We just shut out a Eagles team that sacked the steelers like 7 times in one half. We held the pass rush happy Giants to below their average. Are you even serious with that statement?

And like I have said hundreds of times - He is one of the biggest offenders of the running game being so suspect. Football is not played in a vacum. They play off each other. When you can't get a rhytem, telegraph the run, take 5 seconds to get the ball to the back - its going to effect the running game. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Simply jetison a QB who is the best in the league when conditions are at least marginal? For a QB that fell to pieces trying to keep his job? That hasn't been able to stay healthy for an entire season? 10-14 million for that is the wise decision for the Cardinals? P.S. Whis already has "his" guy. St. Pierre is all his.

Fell to pieces? LMAO. He had a bad half against what now looks like one of the better secondaries in the league and on the road. Keep in mind he has started the equivalent of a a full season (16 games) If you look at the three games other then that he played well and REALLY well if you look at the first and last game. He didn't fall to pieces. Kurt might have won the job but Matt wasn't as bad as you are making it sound. Hyperbole much?

Sanity, thine name is...

"People let me tell you about my best friend......."

Unfortunately, that's not the case. The Cardinals are about 10 rungs south of average on defense. What is acceptable from a QB that has no running and a bad defense(you can throw in shaky special teams if you want to)?

Actually the defense is pretty damn good if they are not having to defend their half of the field. That kind of thing wears on a defense whether its special teams (NYG) or Kurt (PHI) causing that bad field position. No one was saying how bad they were when they were leading the league in turnovers two games ago and had yet to give up a 100 yard rushing game. Sure they got marched on the first drive - and if Warner was as great as you think he would have matched that first drive and not thrown the next pick. That's what good QB's do. They bring it when they have to and eep their teams in games.

Please see: 1999 Rams, 2001 Rams, 2004 Giants, etc.

Yeah those Rams teams and Kurt 8 games in NY they were known as a power running team They also had a hall of fame back and Oline. So if Warner was going to screw that up that would have been pretty epic. Unfortunately we have the pieces for a mediocre to servicable run game and with Warner its below average.

Absurdity V. 2.0 I'll patiently wait while someone provides an example of a QB that produced with a poor system and no player support.

Tom Brady has been a superstar before he had Moss and Welker. Donovon Mcnabb had been winning and producing without the luxury of All Pros other then T.O. Should I keep going. My point is those guys take over games and make people better. Warner is just smart enough to get it to the right people. But if they are having an off game it's lights out at that point.

I'm not even going to bother to debunk this with examples. None of Warner's good games count and all the bad games are all his fault. We'll just go with that.

Just name his best game as a Cardinal against a legitimate defense. That's all I ask.

One of the best arguments I've ever heard. Kitna was a near MVP and it's worth a "couple wins" to the Cardinals to go with Leinart.

I'm assuming this is sarcastic. I liken that season for the Bengals very much with whats taking place here now. Second year coach, SC QB, awesome weapons at WR.....and they did the smart thing and went with Palmer. Things changed once he blew out his knew against Pitt but that certainly seemed to be the right move at that point, no? And yes Kitna was the "almost" MVP that year....kind of like Kurt is the "almost" MVP of this year

How is it not justifiable to pay 8-10 million for a top 3 QB? What have Q, Dansby, Dockett and Wilson provided that forces the Cardinals to keep them? I think they're all good players but the argument you're making works on them just as well. Is it really worth 2 LARGE contracts to see another year of this defense?

Top 3 Fantasy QB? Or Top 3 guys who are going to lead you to a Super Bowl? And you are just crazy if you think sacrificing ANY of the 4 players at the cost of Warner is worthwhile. Even Dansby projects to have a bigger impact for a longer time then Warner. And I am no Dansby apologist.


See what I hate about this is you are forcing me to tear Warner apart when I think he has a done a damn good job improving his protection of the ball and helping us beat the teams we should beat. I don't want to bash on the QB who is leading us to our first division championship since 1975.

But letting him do his thing this year and being happy and commiting money and years to him next year are two different things.

I happen to believe in Matt. Many of you don't. That's okay - I see both sides. But I also think its worthwile to see what we have and give him those reps rather then commiting double figures to a flawed QB who I dont think has the goods when it comes playing good teams. If Kurt plays the next two years and we don't win the title (a pretty reasonable assumption) and we let Matt leave.... was it really worth it?

It's like the people who constantly defend Warner to the teeth don't watch the games and just read the box score afterward and think "Wow - good game" or "Yeah he threw 3 INTS but look how many rushing yards we gave up". I mean you watch the same games I do, right? You don't think his turnovers have been so killer these last 2 games? Is it just a conicidence to you they happened against two legit defenses? Boldins fumble in the Eagle game was killer too but he does it once in a blue moon. Warner has 7 in 3 games. That's acceptable? Are we following the same team???

I don't need him to throw for 300 yards and 4 TD's against the Giants. Just don't turnover the damn ball.

That's when we can take that next step.

And I am still waiting for someone to show me that performance since he has been here. Like King said - The MVP would put his team on his shoulders and carry them to a win that they really shouldn't get.

But he can't (or at least hasn't shown) he can do that. Prove me wrong Kurt. Nothing would make me happier.

But from what I can tell I would rather shake your hand, say thanks, and let Minnesota realize those killer turnovers will only get you so far.