The Warner of Old

[moklerman]

First, yes, he CAN play from under center,

I'm glad you agree.

but he's not that good at it.

In non-shotgun formations his rating is 104 this year. In the shotgun it's 97. That's in about 50 more attempts non-shotgun. Here's the link if you want to check it out:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=1682

Also, dismissing Warner's other mistakes. I'm not going to go back and look up the points off of turnovers, but how do you expect the defense to hold when we turn the ball over?

I'm sure you'll agree that it depends on the circumstance(s). In the Philly game the D gave up a TD on the Eagles' opening drive. Had to defend a short field on the interception, but 41 yards isn't so close that a TD would be expected. Possible, but not a foregone conclusion. The next drive they held after the interception. Next drive they didn't hold after a punt and the next drive they didn't hold after the offense scored a TD.

I don't agree that Warner's turnovers in the first half is what caused the defense to be ineffective or that they put them in such a position that they were doomed to fail. They gave up long, sustained TD drives on various occasions early in the game when it had nothing to do with anything Warner did. Again, his turnovers eventually(not directly) led to 7 Eagles points. It doesn't excuse Warner's mistake but acting like his two turnovers were just too much for the defense to handle isn't right either.

I mean, face it, man. Warner had a bad day. It's okay, you can admit it and still be a Warner fan.

He had his worst game of 2008 statistically speaking. My whole point is that it wasn't because of any major regression or fumbilitis or bad read after bad read. Four drives in the 2nd half stalled because of well thrown balls by Warner being fumbled, dropped or tipped at the LOS. That had a huge impact on whatever stat's he would have got if not for those things. If he was just missing open receivers or taking sacks or fumbling or any number of other things I would be much more concerned. That wasn't happening. Like I said, I think it was just one of those day for the offense overall.

Warner definitely started off flat and had two turnovers but on the whole, his game didn't look particularly bad as far as what he was doing. The risky flip pass, as an example, isn't anything new. He's done that on various occasions. It was certainly risky but it wasn't something we've never seen. Anotherwords, it isn't a concern in terms of Warner playing differently or more poorly than he has all year.

I'm not dismissing Warner's stat's or overall game, just trying to point out that the player that was doing so well earlier in the year hasn't been "figured out" or disappeared. From what I saw, there's no reason for me to think he won't be back to a 100+ rating and good numbers vs. the Rams.

 

[Stout]

I'm giving you a new screen name: Mr. Yeah, but. You don't shrug off stupidity from the QB because that's what he is. If you're willing to admit he had a bad game, you don't have to offer post after post of mitigating circumstances. I just don't think you can say something bad about him without a qualifier; it isn't possible, it seems. There's always a 'yeah, but' in there for you. No, you don't say he's crap for the season because of one game, but you don't just ignore it either. He had a bad game. He's had several of those in a a row. That's troubling. He'll rebound against the Rams, that's for sure, and he'll possibly help us win a home playoff game, but is he the guy for us going forward after the season? I have big question marks there.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I'm giving you a new screen name: Mr. Yeah, but. You don't shrug off stupidity from the QB because that's what he is. If you're willing to admit he had a bad game, you don't have to offer post after post of mitigating circumstances. I just don't think you can say something bad about him without a qualifier; it isn't possible, it seems. There's always a 'yeah, but' in there for you. No, you don't say he's crap for the season because of one game, but you don't just ignore it either. He had a bad game. He's had several of those in a a row. That's troubling. He'll rebound against the Rams, that's for sure, and he'll possibly help us win a home playoff game, but is he the guy for us going forward after the season? I have big question marks there.

Dude, I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that you would give away my name to a 'Warner-phile'...lol

 

[moklerman]

I can offer a comparison that seems relevant. Drew Bledsoe and the Cowboys. In that case, it seemed quite clear that the rest of the Cowboys were performing pretty well and poised for success if their QB wasn't struggling. I was in Bledsoe's corner for much of the time leading up to his last couple of years in Dallas. I really thought he would benefit from good coaching, support and not having the success of the franchise on his shoulders.

I was wrong about that and Bledsoe earned his benching. It was obvious IMO that Dallas had to make a move and Bledsoe was beyond being trusted. Too many times he made critical errors in judgement in the red zone and cost his team some wins.

I don't see that with Warner right now. In '04, 05 and most of '06 I did. He couldn't be trusted to hang onto the ball. When he didn't fumble he tried to force things that weren't there. On top of being on bad teams. In the Philly game in particular, I didn't see him reverting to those ways.

I looked at the game beyond the stat sheet and saw the rest of the team really struggle throughout the day and Warner's numbers took a huge hit because of it but his style of play wasn't, in general, a source of most of the offense's problems.

I look at it as very similar to last year's Seattle game. Warner certainly had a bad day but it wasn't a case of the rest of the offense doing it's job and Warner not just showing up. He was part of the mess but there's only so much you can take away from a QB and expect him to put up numbers/wins.

I agree that he's had some tough times the last few weeks and made some bad decisions but IMO the blocking breakdowns, playcalling and WR's dropping & fumbling have had more to do with the bump in the road for the offense than Warner. Especially in the Philly game. Like I posted before, the defense was giving up points regardless of the situation and the receivers were dropping first down passes or fumbling. Warner looked fine after the first quarter and his slow start resulted in 7 points for the Eagles. Nothing that's commendable but like I said, I don't think Warner is the problem right now. Re-watch the 2nd half and tell me what you think was going on?

Did you get a chance to look at the numbers regarding the "Warner has to play in the shotgun to be successful" topic?

 

[Stout]

I can offer a comparison that seems relevant. Drew Bledsoe and the Cowboys. In that case, it seemed quite clear that the rest of the Cowboys were performing pretty well and poised for success if their QB wasn't struggling. I was in Bledsoe's corner for much of the time leading up to his last couple of years in Dallas. I really thought he would benefit from good coaching, support and not having the success of the franchise on his shoulders.

I was wrong about that and Bledsoe earned his benching. It was obvious IMO that Dallas had to make a move and Bledsoe was beyond being trusted. Too many times he made critical errors in judgement in the red zone and cost his team some wins.

I don't see that with Warner right now. In '04, 05 and most of '06 I did. He couldn't be trusted to hang onto the ball. When he didn't fumble he tried to force things that weren't there. On top of being on bad teams. In the Philly game in particular, I didn't see him reverting to those ways.

I looked at the game beyond the stat sheet and saw the rest of the team really struggle throughout the day and Warner's numbers took a huge hit because of it but his style of play wasn't, in general, a source of most of the offense's problems.

I look at it as very similar to last year's Seattle game. Warner certainly had a bad day but it wasn't a case of the rest of the offense doing it's job and Warner not just showing up. He was part of the mess but there's only so much you can take away from a QB and expect him to put up numbers/wins.

I agree that he's had some tough times the last few weeks and made some bad decisions but IMO the blocking breakdowns, playcalling and WR's dropping & fumbling have had more to do with the bump in the road for the offense than Warner. Especially in the Philly game. Like I posted before, the defense was giving up points regardless of the situation and the receivers were dropping first down passes or fumbling. Warner looked fine after the first quarter and his slow start resulted in 7 points for the Eagles. Nothing that's commendable but like I said, I don't think Warner is the problem right now. Re-watch the 2nd half and tell me what you think was going on?

Did you get a chance to look at the numbers regarding the "Warner has to play in the shotgun to be successful" topic?

Sorry MrYeahBut, I didn't mean to poach your name It isn't even relevant, I don't think. I realize now that Moklerman's screen name should be WarnerIsGodAndIt'sAlwaysSomebodyElse'sFaultWhenHe'sBad. I had to quit reading the above post, because it says only one thing: Warner is faultless, and the rest of the team is to blame for his struggles. I give up on trying as you're so far out of tune with reality in regards to Warner.

 

[moklerman]

Sorry MrYeahBut, I didn't mean to poach your name

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It isn't even relevant, I don't think. I realize now that Moklerman's screen name should be WarnerIsGodAndIt'sAlwaysSomebodyElse'sFaultWhenHe' sBad. I had to quit reading the above post, because it says only one thing: Warner is faultless, and the rest of the team is to blame for his struggles. I give up on trying as you're so far out of tune with reality in regards to Warner.

That's very weak, Stout. I'll keep it short so you can get through. I see a guy that won't accept the facts that contradict his misconceptions that are based on perception. I have mentioned many times a variety of examples where Warner was at fault but since I can't agree with your blanket statements I'm the one who's somehow out of tune with reality?

Your whole perception is perfectly capsulized by your stance on Warner having to play out of the shotgun to be successful. Why did that topic get dropped so quickly by you? I provided you a link to the splits on Warner's numbers and for some reason you don't consider that a part of reality either.

The bottom line is, I never said Warner had a good game against Philadelphia, I just said that he looked like his normal self and wasn't falling apart like the perception seemed to indicate. The reality is that the WR's and defense were playing far below their standards and a QB can't catch the passes for his receivers.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Wow 11 days and 13 pages later.

Think it is time to agree to disagree yet?



The Warner-philes are not going to listen. They didn't in preseason, and they won't now.

Give it up. To some Warner does no wrong.

 

[moklerman]

The Warner-philes are not going to listen.

Not to baseless drivel.

Contract, handoffs, formation, etc., etc. Everyone just "knows" about these things but when they're debunked...let the name-calling and wagon-circling begin.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

I'm giving you a new screen name: Mr. Yeah, but. You don't shrug off stupidity from the QB because that's what he is. If you're willing to admit he had a bad game, you don't have to offer post after post of mitigating circumstances. I just don't think you can say something bad about him without a qualifier; it isn't possible, it seems. There's always a 'yeah, but' in there for you. No, you don't say he's crap for the season because of one game, but you don't just ignore it either. He had a bad game. He's had several of those in a a row. That's troubling. He'll rebound against the Rams, that's for sure, and he'll possibly help us win a home playoff game, but is he the guy for us going forward after the season? I have big question marks there.

Honestly I wouldnt mind letting Warner and Boldin go in the offseason if it meant we could get Suggs and a couple quality o lineman in the draft or free agency. Matt deserves one more shot next year and the team needs to be more well rounded to take the next step

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Wow 11 days and 13 pages later.

Think it is time to agree to disagree yet?



The Warner-philes are not going to listen. They didn't in preseason, and they won't now.

Give it up. To some Warner does no wrong.

What has ML done to show he can lead this team as good as Warner? He's thrown more Ints than TDs. That's not a good sign. Again, if I was just going by that there's a QB out there that can't even find a job that I'd rather hand the keys right now.

I agree to disagree tho. If we do get rid of old man Warner (age discrimination?) I hope we have the decency to sign and trade him to a team that is in need of a QB (maybe a Minnesota). He says he wants to stay tho, so it's still going to upset me considering he's played so well.

 

[Stout]

First, no I haven't responded to the shotgun/under center posts of yours because I had to go back and look for them. The ungodly excuses and sugarcoating of Warner's play was too difficult to read in full, so I missed it. To respond, it's great that he has good numbers from under center. That doesn't mean he looks comfortable dropping back when I watch. In fact, his drops are laborious and slow. It's crystal clear while watching him play that he's more comfortable out of the shotgun, and he's even admitted as such.

Here's some info for you: 10 turnovers in the last 4 games. That's 2 1/2 turnovers a game right at Warner's feet. He had 3 in this last game. Yet you continue to argue that it's mostly not his fault that he's made these turnovers? Give it a rest, dude. As Rugby says, I should give up because I'll never get through to you, but WARNER HAD A BAD GAME. I mean, if you can't even admit that he had a bad game after a game like that, your objectivity has failed to exist, if it ever even did. No, the loss wasn't even nearly all on him, but that doesn't absolve Warner of the fact that he had a really bad day.

 

[mojorizen7]

Actually fellas this is the Warner of old. Hopefully this guy continues to show up for ya & get ya'll one of these.

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[IAWarnerFan]

So, that's what the trophy looks like. :notworthy

But he can't do it alone. The Cardinals better make the right moves this offseason. Some of which I already discussed on here.

 

[moklerman]

First, no I haven't responded to the shotgun/under center posts of yours because I had to go back and look for them. The ungodly excuses and sugarcoating of Warner's play was too difficult to read in full, so I missed it. To respond, it's great that he has good numbers from under center. That doesn't mean he looks comfortable dropping back when I watch. In fact, his drops are laborious and slow. It's crystal clear while watching him play that he's more comfortable out of the shotgun, and he's even admitted as such.

Pretty much what I said earlier. Stat's and facts just don't compare to preconceived notions and impressions.

Man, he sure looks slow putting up a 104+ rating.

 

[Spielman]

Here's some info for you: 10 turnovers in the last 4 games. That's 2 1/2 turnovers a game right at Warner's feet.

3 INTs against Philly. 1 INT each against the Seahawks and Giants. Zero against the 49ers. 5 total in four games.

One lost fumble against the Giants, the same against the Seahawks. None against the Eagles or 49ers. 2 total in four games.

That's 7 turnovers in four games, not 10.

I'm not going to say that that's great, but if you're going to argue that others are ignoring evidence or are blind, you might want to get your own facts straight.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

From what we know (career stats wise) about ML and the way the 49ers are now playing. No way the Cardinals do this w/o Warner!

 

[Russ Smith]

From what we know (career stats wise) about ML and the way the 49ers are now playing. No way the Cardinals do this w/o Warner!

Warner has been huge this year but we don't KNOW anything about Leinart. most young QB's take a few years to put it all together, Matt has actually had better numbers early than a lot of really good QB's did.

I don't think he was going to put up the yardage and TD numbers Kurt did but I do think he's going to be a very good NFL QB if he can stay healthy.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Warner has been huge this year but we don't KNOW anything about Leinart. most young QB's take a few years to put it all together, Matt has actually had better numbers early than a lot of really good QB's did.

I don't think he was going to put up the yardage and TD numbers Kurt did but I do think he's going to be a very good NFL QB if he can stay healthy.

No, most truely great QBs start off great out of the box. Unless his name is really Steve Young, I'm not buying that. Look, why are you trying to ruin the good time? Come on! Party!

 

[Stout]

3 INTs against Philly. 1 INT each against the Seahawks and Giants. Zero against the 49ers. 5 total in four games.

One lost fumble against the Giants, the same against the Seahawks. None against the Eagles or 49ers. 2 total in four games.

That's 7 turnovers in four games, not 10.

I'm not going to say that that's great, but if you're going to argue that others are ignoring evidence or are blind, you might want to get your own facts straight.

Man, either my math skills suck or my eyes do Yep, looking back, it was my eyes. He had 3 TDs and not picks v the Whiners. Duh! Still pretty awful numbers, but not 2 1/2 a game.

 

[Stout]

Pretty much what I said earlier. Stat's and facts just don't compare to preconceived notions and impressions.

Man, he sure looks slow putting up a 104+ rating.

I'm going to say this, and then I'm done, because you're impossible to reach with logic and I want to savor the division title. Actually, it's a question: do YOU think Warner looks comfortable dropping back to pass? Your answer will say it all.

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Stout,

You really should change your Avatar to Buzz Killington.

 

[Stout]

Stout,

You really should change your Avatar to Buzz Killington.

Nope, that was a response to a pre-game discussion...I have things I wanted to say from during the game, but I refuse to mar the moment today. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby!

 

[Russ Smith]

No, most truely great QBs start off great out of the box. Unless his name is really Steve Young, I'm not buying that. Look, why are you trying to ruin the good time? Come on! Party!

There's been like 5 in the last 20 years or so that start out great, Marino, Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan this year. Most elite QB's start out rough around the edges, even Peyton threw 28 picks his rookie year.

I'm not bashing Kurt at all I'm just saying your comments about Leinart are completely without context, his first 2 years were actually as good or better than many good QB's put up. The difference is most of them didn't have to compete with a guy like Warner.

I've been a fan since 1975, believe me I am thrilled to win another division title and I probably appreciate this more than a lot of Cards fans just on sheer longevity.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Another crap ass stupid pick, but a division title.

All in all, a good game today

 

[Rats]

Great Win and thanks to Warner and the boys for an exciting offense. 12 picks is only one a game and I think to a man everyone can live with that in an offense where Warner is asked to throw as many times as he has. Today the receivers seemed to drop alot of passes and Breaston had a sure TD if he drags his toe. This has been what we wanted for so long. Warner should be here for 2 more seasons if he wants to and Matt can compete and learn from the best. Lets win a home playoff game now and see what happens. GO CARDS!!!