This Act Gets Real Old ESPN

Azlen

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Long post but a view of your points jumped out at me that I tend to disagree with.

4. People want honest analysis. They don't want people pissing down their back and tell them it's raining.

No people do not want honest analysis. They want analysis that agrees with what they already think. Most football fans who feel good about their team would probably watch an analysis that was skewed more positively towards their team and would be less likely to pay much attention to an analysis that was more honest. Confirmation bias is a very real thing.


We in America are sick of propaganda. It's all we get, and we know it, and we want something else.

I believe people say they are sick of propaganda but their behavior shows otherwise. It's why money is so huge in politics today. Winning an election has become more about television ads and who can spread the most propaganda. If people were truly sick of it, it wouldn't be near as effective as it is. It's really sad that it still works as well as it does.
 

CardsFan88

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Long post but a view of your points jumped out at me that I tend to disagree with.



No people do not want honest analysis. They want analysis that agrees with what they already think. Most football fans who feel good about their team would probably watch an analysis that was skewed more positively towards their team and would be less likely to pay much attention to an analysis that was more honest. Confirmation bias is a very real thing.




I believe people say they are sick of propaganda but their behavior shows otherwise. It's why money is so huge in politics today. Winning an election has become more about television ads and who can spread the most propaganda. If people were truly sick of it, it wouldn't be near as effective as it is. It's really sad that it still works as well as it does.

1. Sort of. I see what you are saying, and partially agree with it, but I would just like to point out that it reaches...

Only a segment of fans, and only a segment of that particular team, thus everyone but that small segment want the truth. When I see something on say the Dolphins, I don't care if it's positive or negative, I just want it to be the truth and being a Cardinal fan doesn't make me biased towards the Dolphins or most other teams, especially those that aren't in our division, or the team we just played or about to play.

Why would anyone want lies about Manziel? About 95-98 percent of NFL fans aren't Browns fans, and not Texas A&M fans. Sure there are a bunch of casual fans that will pay attention, but I'd say in Manziel's case, I think most of the attention, is actually people wanting to see him fail, and fail hard. But ultimately it doesn't matter, because they'd rather see other stories, perhaps more of their own team.

So while I agree that people generally want to see what they think of is correct, confirmed by others, especially about their team, and hope it's even better then they thought, the fact of the matter is, when covering ANY team, or ANY player, the vast majority, like 95-98 percent, aren't inclusive of the segment that you correctly attribute that bias towards. In other words, the bias is real, but ESPN at any given time is being watched by mostly people who aren't needing their bias confirmed. Basically every story, is separate, and each story the vast majority watching have little/no bias towards it.


2. It works because so many people can't be bothered with finding out for themselves. So many people are busy trying to survive, employed or not, multiple jobs or just one, sick family members, kids, etc, etc... they want someone else to do the thinking and then summarize it.


So since we've been conditioned to trust tv and our gov't and our politicians, despite what many people know about how bad TV ads are, for many people, it's the only time they get exposed to politics, because they simply don't want to or don't have time to do it themselves.

If that's your only exposure, and you're too time limited to think for yourself, it's effective because people are looking for someone else to do their thinking for them, and the TV ads do.

It's also not a one off static state of affairs. It's a process. People are getting more in tune, so each time reality is surrendered to the fake narrative, more and more people pull away from it. We're still not there yet. Not enough people are sickened by the propaganda yet. Many haven't been bitten in the butt enough to see the consequences, or don't realize that the pain they've felt is that.

Over time this is changing, but since we live as individuals and individuals live, grow up, and die, and every day you have people who see this who die, and other people who come of age and still have to learn. So it's a long process.

Of course I fully realize there is a segment of the population who wants to be fooled, and the more hairy things get, wants the wool that's pulled over their eyes to be pulled further and further over them. I just know this is a minority even if it can be a substantial number, and that sometimes even they can change, and vice versa.
 

Cheesebeef

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The debate is multi-faceted and some people are combining disparate arguments into an incorrect whole and thus having an incomplete viewpoint of the situation.

1. Of course sports outlets are going to cover the hype stories, of course it can also be debated HOW these stories become hyped in the first place (years of Manziel pimping) and how in the absence of the prerequisite hyping, why something else couldn't equal those numbers naturally.

But we're going to skip that one for now other then just pointing that this point is muddier then most think. But in the end, ESPN and other outlets want hits and views because they make money off it. But it is important to realize there is more then one way to skin a cat, and thus just because all the focus on Manziel gives them ratings, doesn't mean if they went another way, they couldn't equal or even surpass what the current situation creates around Manziel.

2. Sports in general creates stories by what occurs while playing or preparing to play those sports. For the 2014 NFL preseason so far, these are the ones that should crop up when say Bortles has a fine first outing. Or Logan Thomas plays lights out. Or any non-QB that play well. It can be rookies, it can be veterans. It's players singularly, or how teams as a whole play together. That's why there should also be stories about teams that kick another teams butt and completely dominate them. Or they spend 3 minutes showcasing Manziel, but then say in the last five seconds that it only led to 3 points and the other team, Detroit won, and we won't show you how or why.

3. People don't mind having extra stories about Manziel or Clowney or anybody, as long as this coverage doesn't push out REAL stories. So if ESPN wants to show Manziel coverage, they have to make sure they still leave time to cover all the REAL stories of what is actually happening. They have to make sure they have the staff to do the extra stories or have some staff do more. Sadly they are choosing not to do this.

4. People want honest analysis. They don't want people pissing down their back and tell them it's raining. But that's exactly what ESPN and other sports outlets have been doing with Manziel and Sam.

Neither of these guys are likely to play much, if at all, during the 2014 regular season. Could Manziel win the job? Sure, but only because a Brian Hoyer level talent (or lack thereof) is in front of him. Will he play long? Not if he runs around like a moron and chooses to run instead of taking the open play.

People may hate Gruden, but he's right when says you can't go broke taking a profit, and for Manziel, taking that profit, helps keep Manziel from getting layed out. A big part of Gruden's camp with Manziel was entirely that. Don't run when you can make a profit throwing. Look at how he got injured by not taking a profit in a college game, and how that injury then hampered him and the team for a long time.

So far in one game we watched Manziel do exactly what Gruden warned him about, and came up shaken a bit. Funny that ESPN's analysis doesn't even use ESPN's own analysis (via Gruden) when talking about Manziel. It's hype train. You can service a hype story without being morons about it. ESPN though, chooses to be morons.

Manziel was very pedestrian, both throwing and running, and people want real analysis of it. After all, if you're going to cut away the real stories, and subject people to these ones, at least be honest with what you shove down people's throats.

Many cut QB's can run for 15 yards when the defense vacates the middle and leaves it wide open. It's a nothing play. It's nothing to be excited about. He had a wide open field, and ran like any other QB could. It's not Johnny Football. It's regular football, and it doesn't showcase how good anyone can be, because it was a defensive mistake (or defensive playcalling mistake) rather then a good play by Johnny that shows he is a legit NFL QB.

He connected on a 15 yard post route, again, nothing special. Besides these two pedestrian plays, he did nothing except make mistake after mistake. Even his 1 yard run 1st down scramble, that he was lucky to get, he had a wide open guy, right in front of him, that he could of dumped off and gotten the 1st down.

But he didn't take the profit, and almost went broke. So people won't mind if 100 articles come out about the game, but ALL of them should talk about how badly he sucked, and very few did. They were pissing down our back and told us it was raining.

What ESPN and others did was not only that, but then decided to take all the real plays, and real stories, let them go unnoticed, and present that as their Sportscenter or whatever. How can they talk about the exciting Manziel when Logan Thomas and Blake Bortles had theirs? It's dishonest, plain and simple.

If you want more Manziel stories, be correct, and add to the body of work that should be done around the NFL regardless of one Johnny Manziel or one Michael Sam. Cover the NFL, don't just cover Johnny and Sam at the detriment of everyone else. It is not legitimate to forget the real to cover the hype, no matter what ratings say. Find a way to work both, but never abandon the real.

So of course people want to know about Clowney and Manziel and Sam, but the NFL is about a whole lot more then that, and people are justified in their complaining when they see real stories ignored for a predetermined narrative. It's THEIR job to cover the NFL, so when they don't, and do so in such an obvious fashion, people are rightly going to complain and be completely justified in doing so.

We see it on MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN regarding pretty much everything. But every year ESPN and other sports outlets become more and more like these above morons of propaganda.

We in America are sick of propaganda. It's all we get, and we know it, and we want something else.

So it's not a valid either/or question. They can easily talk about the real NFL stories and placate the hype. Just somehow they CHOSE one over the other, for no reason. ESPN has an hour program, and at least half of that time is wasted on pointless crap and needless asinine banter. So I don't buy the either/or situation. They could of done both, or if actually pressed, go with what's real over what's hype. But remember, they aren't forced into that decision, since they have plenty of time to cover both.

So people can play the numbers game, or they can focus on reality. This is another case of focusing on numbers and missing the forest from the trees.

here's reality... a fourth round pick playing well against guys who will never be in the NFL isn't really a story.
 

ajcardfan

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here's reality... a fourth round pick playing well against guys who will never be in the NFL isn't really a story.

Yeah, that will always be true unless it is an exceptional case like Sam. It just isn't national news.

Now, once Thomas does something similar in the regular season, then it will get more notice.
 

Cheesebeef

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Yeah, that will always be true unless it is an exceptional case like Sam. It just isn't national news.

Now, once Thomas does something similar in the regular season, then it will get more notice.

yup.
 

Mulli

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Somehow the Cards made someone named Max Hall a national (kinda) story.
 

Cheesebeef

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Somehow the Cards made someone named Max Hall a national (kinda) story.

that was a dark year for our beloved Cards. Max Hall. STARTED FOR US...AND BEAT THE DEFENDING SUPER BOWL CHAMPS SOMEHOW!

Only in Cardinals land.
 

CardsFan88

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Here's reality: Anybody that does anything on an NFL field that's noteworthy is news. What Logan Thomas did was noteworthy, thus it is news, and that's reality.

Reality isn't that we have to wait until the gatekeepers showcase and confirm reality in order for it to be real. I know what Thomas did was noteworthy for the moment, and ESPN and other outlets not covering it, doesn't make it any less noteworthy.

It may not be the current way things are going, but that isn't reality, that's a shaped reality that is not natural, nor real.

Anything that deviates from real reality is hype overriding reality. Reality isn't what people notice, it's everything. Reality isn't trends or hype or popularity. It's what IS that is GENUINE.

Thus a 4th round pick vastly outplaying an overhyped 1st round pick by far, and a 1st round pick that was picked AHEAD of Johnny Football, Blake Bortles, against pretty comparable talent that Johnny Football sucked against, scrub backups, is noteworthy.

Why have people developed these bs reasons something should or shouldn't be news based on what exactly? News is news, without the qualifiers.

Because again if Logan Thomas isn't newsworthy because Manziel was a 1st round pick, because again they both played against scrubs, how come Bortles is in the same position as Thomas, even though he was picked ahead of Manziel and also outplayed Manziel?

What eventually happens, or really what people decide to acknowledge certain things that happen over others isn't the exclusive realm of reality.

Plenty of reality is ignored, on the alter of something else which doesn't make what isn't covered any less real.

What's being pointed out is that what is REAL is being overlooked for the manufactured, and it doesn't make any sense, especially not business sense. You don't need to abandon reality to cover the hype. You can do both.

Again, Manziel, Sam, and the abandonment of what's really happening for a predetermined narrative is what people are really complaining against, and rightfully so. Because it isn't reality, even if it is the manufactured reality we are living in.
 
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Cheesebeef

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Here's reality: Anybody that does anything on an NFL field that's noteworthy is news. What Logan Thomas did was noteworthy, thus it is news, and that's reality.

Reality isn't that we have to wait until the gatekeepers showcase and confirm reality in order for it to be real. I know what Thomas did was noteworthy for the moment, and ESPN and other outlets not covering it, doesn't make it any less noteworthy.

again, a 3rd string QB playing well against complete and utter scrubs ISN'T noteworthy in any section of news reporting. It never has been and never will be. Why? because it simply doesn't prove anything much of note. Do you know how many 3rd string players have lit up other 3rd string players? I'm guessing there's a TON of them. Do you know how many of them actually went on to do ANYTHING in the league when the real bullets started flying? I'm guessing a tiny percentage.

It may not be the current way things are going, but that isn't reality, that's a shaped reality that is not natural, nor real.

Anything that deviates from real reality is hype overriding reality. Reality isn't what people notice, it's everything. Reality isn't trends or hype or popularity. It's what IS that is GENUINE.

Thus a 4th round pick vastly outplaying an overhyped 1st round pick by far, and a 1st round pick that was picked AHEAD of Johnny Football, Blake Bortles, against pretty comparable talent that Johnny Football sucked against, scrub backups, is noteworthy.

Why have people developed these bs reasons something should or shouldn't be news based on what exactly? News is news, without the qualifiers.

Because again if Logan Thomas isn't newsworthy because Manziel was a 1st round pick, because again they both played against scrubs, how come Bortles is in the same position as Thomas, even though he was picked ahead of Manziel and also outplayed Manziel?

I actually saw Bortles highlights and people talk about him, so you lost me there. And why did they talk about him? Because people are interested in a high pick and because he got some run before the third stringer came out.

What eventually happens, or really what people decide to acknowledge certain things that happen over others isn't the exclusive realm of reality.

Plenty of reality is ignored, on the alter of something else which doesn't make what isn't covered any less real.

What's being pointed out is that what is REAL is being overlooked for the manufactured, and it doesn't make any sense, especially not business sense. You don't need to abandon reality to cover the hype. You can do both.

Again, Manziel, Sam, and the abandonment of what's really happening[/QUOTE]

what really happened is our 3rd string QB played well against complete and utter scrubs. No one but Cardinals fans care about that, thus on a national TV show, it's not going to be covered, nor should it be.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

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I just liked that Thomas looked decent even against 3rd stringers. I don't think we've ever had a 3rd string QB look serviceable even in preseason ever.

But agreed with most of the other posters here. This thread topic makes no sense unless Blacksburg, VA all of a sudden had a net positive migration of about 15 million people.
 
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kerouac9

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Do people think that ESPN and NFL Network are stupid? That they don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars running the numbers and finding out who moves the needle and who doesn't?

Does anyone think that ESPN and NFLN program for hard-core football fans like us?

If you count yourself among those numbers, you're absolutely insane. ESPN runs Johnny Football stories because he moves the needle like no NFL personality since Tebow. If you move the needle, you're going to get more attention.

Is your little sister going to watch a 90-second segment on Logan Thomas taking apart what could well be a six-win team--er, the backups and roster fodder for a six-win team? Oh, no?

Is your little sister going to pause on the charismatic Texas football legend and former Heisman Trophy winner? Of course she will!

Just because it's a cynical take doesn't mean it's not true. I'm as hard-core a football fan as they come, but I'm not pausing on a Miami Dolphins football story no matter how "true" it is unless there's a compelling reason to do so.
 

kerouac9

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Unpopular opinion: Johnny Football is what Whisenhunt thought Max Hall was. Bigger hands, bigger arm, better wheels.
 

FArting

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ESPN has this bias against all AZ teams. They show our highlights at the very end.
 

Darkside

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This whole discussion is amusing on varying levels, precisely because no hard-core fan gets their team news from ESPN or NFL Network television. When's the last time either of those networks broke a story or delivered information about the Cards that we didn't already know?! They're like Wolf Blitzer on CNN with his Breaking News icon for 8 hours a day or his "exclusive coverage" that's the same video looped over and over on every other channel. ESPN and NFL network didn't even break the Abraham story, it was the local reporter Bob McManaman, who was digging in Georgia arrest records who broke the news and even ESPN fed off that. So they deliver "news" approximately never percent of the time.

Chances are any real news or information is already being reported via other local sources, even as poor as those sources sometimes are here in AZ. And as far as analysis, they are terrible when compared to many other sources as well, including some people on this forum!

So what we're really talking about are general interest pieces, and those are usually dictated by popularity within the larger media markets. Which we aren't. Manziel may be in Cleveland now, but he started in Texas, and Texas is like its own country. They're also much more into college ball than AZ is and follow those players along the trajectory of their career. They dump millions into jersey sales and ESPN/NFL itself. What does AZ give them? Dudes like Max Hall--most of his excess jersey's are probably in a 3rd world country, and even there they may be collecting dust.

It's not all about winners and losers. I'm sure they talked more about Manziel than Tom Brady or a plethora of other great players. Manziel can at least increase viewership, can sell jersey's, and has a chance to start. LT won't start this year, probably not next year, maybe not the year after, and maybe never. What's there to talk about?
 
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Cheesebeef

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This whole discussion is amusing on varying levels, precisely because no hard-core fan gets their team news from ESPN or NFL Network television. When's the last time either of those networks broke a story or delivered information about the Cards that we didn't already know?! They're like Wolf Blitzer on CNN with his Breaking News icon for 8 hours a day or his "exclusive coverage" that's the same video lopped over and over on every other channel. ESPN and NFL network didn't even break the Abraham story, it was the local reporter Bob McManaman, who was digging in Georgia arrest records who broke the news and even ESPN fed off that. So they deliver "news" approximately never percent of the time.

Chances are any real news or information is already being reported via other local sources, even as poor as those sources sometimes are here in AZ. And as far as analysis, they are terrible when compared to many other sources as well, including some people on this forum!

So what we're really talking about are general interest pieces, and those are usually dictated by popularity within the larger media markets. Which we aren't. Manziel may be in Cleveland now, but he started in Texas, and Texas is like its own country. They're also much more into college ball than AZ is and follow those players along the trajectory of their career. They dump millions into jersey sales and ESPN/NFL itself. What does AZ give them? Dudes like Max Hall--most of his excess jersey's are probably in a 3rd world country, and even there they may be collecting dust.

It's not all about winners and losers. I'm sure they talked more about Manziel than Tom Brady or a plethora of other great players. Manziel can at least increase viewership, can sell jersey's, and has a chance to start. LT won't start this year, probably not next year, maybe not the year after, and maybe never. What's there to talk about?

bingo.
 

Cheesebeef

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I just liked that Thomas looked decent even against 3rd stringers. I don't think we've ever had a 3rd string QB look serviceable even in preseason ever.

But agreed with most of the other posters here. This thread topic makes no sense unless Blacksburg, VA all of a sudden had a net positive migration of about 15 million people.

ha...seriously.
 

Azlen

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This whole discussion is amusing on varying levels, precisely because no hard-core fan gets their team news from ESPN or NFL Network television. When's the last time either of those networks broke a story or delivered information about the Cards that we didn't already know?! They're like Wolf Blitzer on CNN with his Breaking News icon for 8 hours a day or his "exclusive coverage" that's the same video looped over and over on every other channel. ESPN and NFL network didn't even break the Abraham story, it was the local reporter Bob McManaman, who was digging in Georgia arrest records who broke the news and even ESPN fed off that. So they deliver "news" approximately never percent of the time.

I think a reason a lot of people get upset over it is not because they want news and analysis, it's because they are searching for a confirmation bias on a national level. They want the ESPN analysts to gush over Logan Thomas because they want their feelings about him confirmed. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's a normal thing to do but it's not going to change ESPN. I'm sure their mailboxes are full of people who think their team is being slighted.
 

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Hard core fans get their info from here. :D

I rarely go to ESPN anymore. I get my news for the net, from B/R(yes I know alot of you don't like that app, but its great to have) and from ASFN. The only time I watch SC is for highlights and news about stuff I am truly not to interested in but wouldn't mind knowing. Its the interwebs that allow me to avoid the crap on ESPN and NFLN.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

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People forget how we were splashed all over ESPN and such when Leinart was drafted and a rookie. Leinart got hits back then just like Manziel. Thomas not so much.
 

ajcardfan

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Somehow the Cards made someone named Max Hall a national (kinda) story.

Yeah, in his first start in the REGULAR season they beat the Saints and Drew Brees.
 

desertdawg

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This place is hardcore as far as the fans go on ASFN, you don't have to write like a pro, but you better fact check before you hit that submit click. I had surgery on my right hand today, 2 hours ago I was unconscious. But here I sit, typing like a caveman with the index finger on my left hand.

The attention will come, our brand will sell, and we are a young team. The member list will grow, and we will all have to be mindful that the new fans are our new family, well, the nice ones that is. It's nice to see folks sign up that have already been reading here for awhile, and I hope the place isn't intimidating, because we are passionate. Some conversations might be viewed to a new lurker as highly intense, but we always circle back to co-existing in a family type of way.
 

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ESPN is just cashing in again, when it became the Teebow channel I knew what was up. When it was the Tiger Woods channel, they loved him, after the 47 hookers came out, ESPN loved him even more, but they didn't show him any love. Mothership is a business, not a family.
 

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here's something else a lot of people aren't taking into account. Sportscenter is a LIVE TV show. That means they have footage coming in during the show and are producing segments, editing and writing copy ON THE SPOT. Doing all that under the gun means the segment producer has to look for the biggest, shiniest story in the game and in a preseason game, that means something, anything in the first quarter, or with a superstar involved. they don't have time to scour through three hours of game footage and key in on 3rd stringers during mop up duty, especially in the first pre-season game of the season. Those highlight packages don't just pop up out of thin air. You'd be surprised how much work it is just to put together what you saw to get it on the air during the hour.

Highlighting Logan's game isn't practical from a story or production point of view.
 
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