Thomas NOT returning

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The point is, you are overrating him. The sky is always falling in your world, I suppose that's holdover from many disappointing years as a Cardinal fan. You just need to relax and stop crying so much. If you think the Suns lost any chance they had at a championship because Tim Thomas went to the Clippers, well, I don't know what to tell you. It's pretty ridiculous.

you always need to go over the top, don't you? no one said we "lost any chance . . . at a championship" but you're acting like it's not a blow to the organization, which it is. you're WAAAY undervaluing him. he was a very valuable piece in our playoff run this year and would have provided excellent depth and insurance. i guess you're short-sighted enough to have forgotten that we ran outta gas two years ago w/ no depth.

 

[Chaplin]

you always need to go over the top, don't you? no one said we "lost any chance . . . at a championship" but you're acting like it's not a blow to the organization, which it is. you're WAAAY undervaluing him. he was a very valuable piece in our playoff run this year and would have provided excellent depth and insurance. i guess you're short-sighted enough to have forgotten that we ran outta gas two years ago w/ no depth.

"Over the top" LOL, that's rich coming from the brother of cheesebeef.

Wrong. Again. It's funny even replying to you because it doesn't matter what it is, you'll ALWAYS agree with your brother.

When did I say we are fine depth-wise? Hmm? Oh, that's right, I NEVER DID, no matter how much you and cheese like to make up stories that I did. I think TT is replacable. Why is that so hard to believe?

Cheese (and you apparently) have been whining non-stop about this. TT being gone right now sacrifices some depth, there is no arguing that. But it is not the end of the world, considering it's only July 2nd, for chrissakes! You guys act as if we should just forfeit the season now. Why is that?

And I'm short-sighted because I think TT isn't worth 5.4 million dollars a year? Or that I think we are deep enough (which is wrong, but that is not concerning you). You automatically think I'm ok with the way the team looks at this point in time, and to tell you the truth, even with an 80% Amare, and with a healthy Kurt Thomas, I still like our team. I still want a couple free agents, like a point guard and maybe an extra big man to do some dirty work, but our top 8 is set. Does that opinion make me a jerk?

I think you and cheese are overrating Tim Thomas. I know you guys are taking it personally, but come on. Cheese loves to single me out, but I certainly don't ridicule people in every single post, like cheesebeef does.

 

[Renz]

 

[Cheesebeef]

"Over the top" LOL, that's rich coming from the brother of cheesebeef.

Wrong. Again. It's funny even replying to you because it doesn't matter what it is, you'll ALWAYS agree with your brother.

When did I say we are fine depth-wise? Hmm? Oh, that's right, I NEVER DID, no matter how much you and cheese like to make up stories that I did. I think TT is replacable. Why is that so hard to believe?

Cheese (and you apparently) have been whining non-stop about this. TT being gone right now sacrifices some depth, there is no arguing that. But it is not the end of the world, considering it's only July 2nd, for chrissakes! You guys act as if we should just forfeit the season now. Why is that?

And I'm short-sighted because I think TT isn't worth 5.4 million dollars a year? Or that I think we are deep enough (which is wrong, but that is not concerning you). You automatically think I'm ok with the way the team looks at this point in time, and to tell you the truth, even with an 80% Amare, and with a healthy Kurt Thomas, I still like our team. I still want a couple free agents, like a point guard and maybe an extra big man to do some dirty work, but our top 8 is set. Does that opinion make me a jerk?

I think you and cheese are overrating Tim Thomas. I know you guys are taking it personally, but come on. Cheese loves to single me out, but I certainly don't ridicule people in every single post, like cheesebeef does.

chap - you want to show me where I'm ridiculing people in this thread? Nice over-exageraation though, again. Or again - implying - or pretty much stating that we are saying this is the end of the world? Another exaggeration - seems like that's all you can do - signs of REALLY poor discussion skills, to go along with your lack of tact (which I lack as well). But hey, whatever works for you.

I love the fact that you can't see what you are here - which is basically the Kool-aid version of me.

 

[George O'Brien]

Come on, let's chill out.

 

[sunsfn]

Renz, your sig picture is really irritating, would you please change it?

 

[Renz]

Renz, your sig picture is really irritating, would you please change it?

 

[Chaplin]

I love the fact that you can't see what you are here - which is basically the Kool-aid version of me.

Now THAT is the one thing I never expected you to say cheese...

 

[Evil Ash]

As far as the first point, Ash - do you think we even play .500 ball without TT? Do you think we get out of the first round of th eplayoffs without him? Right there I'd say his impact was pretty great to this team. Was it KT great? No - but KT also played while Eddie House was lighting up the scoreboard and JJ actually knew how to play basketball. How would we have fared with Kurt with both of those guys completely going in the tank like they did? I'm assuming... around .500.

I didn't see this yesterday but I've got laugh at this, you're seriously trying to tell me the reason we were so high over .500 was because of EDDIE HOUSE?! Do you look at any other stats besides points?

Kurt was crucial for our interior defense, was helping Marion with the rebounding (as compared to where we weren't getting outrebounded by 20 in the playoffs), set picks to help run the offense, and hit his 15 foot jumper on a regular basis. TT didn't even do half of those things well, he was a clutch shooter who I wish we would have kept but I wouldn't give the full MLE to him.

As much as I would like to have him, he was not critical to this team's success next year and you are vastly overrating him. His 14 points and 5 rebounds are replaceable. Our season was not riding on TT no matter how much you spin it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I didn't see this yesterday but I've got laugh at this, you're seriously trying to tell me the reason we were so high over .500 was because of EDDIE HOUSE?! Do you look at any other stats besides points?

Kurt was crucial for our interior defense, was helping Marion with the rebounding (as compared to where we weren't getting outrebounded by 20 in the playoffs), set picks to help run the offense, and hit his 15 foot jumper on a regular basis. TT didn't even do half of those things well, he was a clutch shooter who I wish we would have kept but I wouldn't give the full MLE to him.

As much as I would like to have him, he was not critical to this team's success next year and you are vastly overrating him. His 14 points and 5 rebounds are replaceable. Our season was not riding on TT no matter how much you spin it.

Oh my freaking God - WHO THE HELL IS SAYING OUR "SEASON IS RIDING ON TT?" Seriously - I just said this in another post - OVER-EXAGGERATING WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS SAYING IS PROOF YOU DON'T HAVE THE PIECES TO BACK UP YOUR OWN ARGUMENT.

And good freaking lord Ash - you're not THAT dense about the first part are you? DID YOU NOT NOTICE THAT I SAID WHEN KT WAS PLAYING WE ALSO HAD OTHER PEOPLE AROUND HIM? WASN'T PART OF OUR STRENGTH DURING THE REGULAR SEASON OUR VAUNTED BENCH WITH HOUSE AND JONES HITTING THREES? EVERYTHING the Suns had going with KT in the lineup is what made us so good - KT's defense, AND OUR BENCH - WHICH EDDIE HOUSE AND JAMES JONES WE'RE KEY COMPONENTS OF - AND KEY COMPONENTS THAT DIDN'T SHOW UP IN THE PLAYOFFS OR IN THE END OF THE REGULAR SEASON WHEN WE GOT TT. And if you want to know why I'm putting this in all caps, it's because I BELIEVE YOU ARE TOO DENSE TO UNDERSTAND IT OTHERWISE. Seriously, there's no point in talking to people that really just care to over-exaggerate others opinions and are too dense to understand an argument being made.

But regardless Ash - let's say those guys played during the regular season like they did in the playoffs WITH KT - you take out OUR ENITRE BENCH BESIDES LEOANDRO AND YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ME WE'RE THAT HIGH ABOVE .500? How exactly was that going to happen?

I thought you were smarter than the above post Ash. You're turning into Tango on this board. Picking and choosing what you want to see and blowing thigns out of proportion all to defend the Suns at every little cost. Sleep with any deer lately?

 

[ARZCardinals]

way to go Sarver - next time 'get it in writing'

thinking you're going to get the player is not the same as getting him

you could have had the best pg in the draft...passed on that for ?...Brilliant!

 

[Evil Ash]

way to go Sarver - next time 'get it in writing'

thinking you're going to get the player is not the same as getting him

you could have had the best pg in the draft...passed on that for ?...Brilliant!

D'Antoni passed not Sarver. He didn't like the players there

 

[George O'Brien]

D'Antoni passed not Sarver. He didn't like the players there

I wasn't terribly taken with the guys available at 21 either. I kept hoping maybe the Suns found a diamond in the rough, but I really lost interest when the Suns failed to trade up to get one of the three wings they had targeted.

BTW, I have a theory that the Suns already decided to do something with Sato and judged the prospects based on whether they were better him. If Bargnani is worth the #1 pick for being so good in the Italian league, then shouldn't a guy who averaged 27 points in the same league get some respect?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

"Over the top" LOL, that's rich coming from the brother of cheesebeef.

Wrong. Again. It's funny even replying to you because it doesn't matter what it is, you'll ALWAYS agree with your brother.

When did I say we are fine depth-wise? Hmm? Oh, that's right, I NEVER DID, no matter how much you and cheese like to make up stories that I did. I think TT is replacable. Why is that so hard to believe?

Cheese (and you apparently) have been whining non-stop about this. TT being gone right now sacrifices some depth, there is no arguing that. But it is not the end of the world, considering it's only July 2nd, for chrissakes! You guys act as if we should just forfeit the season now. Why is that?

And I'm short-sighted because I think TT isn't worth 5.4 million dollars a year? Or that I think we are deep enough (which is wrong, but that is not concerning you). You automatically think I'm ok with the way the team looks at this point in time, and to tell you the truth, even with an 80% Amare, and with a healthy Kurt Thomas, I still like our team. I still want a couple free agents, like a point guard and maybe an extra big man to do some dirty work, but our top 8 is set. Does that opinion make me a jerk?

I think you and cheese are overrating Tim Thomas. I know you guys are taking it personally, but come on. Cheese loves to single me out, but I certainly don't ridicule people in every single post, like cheesebeef does.

first of all, we don't always agree on everything. a lot, yes, but not everything. probably comes off as such b/c amazingly enough, as brothers, we actually speak offline as well. that's usually when we discuss our difference of opinion. no need for me to address those differences on these threads considering we actually talk about them verbally. in fact, we disagreed on the action taken with the draft picks (and i was right).

also, i never called you a jerk. i just said you took things to the extreme. you always do it chap.

finally, i'm not taking anything personally. i think tt was a PERFECT fit for us from a bench personnel standpoint. i don't think there is another guy available on the market that provides his size, ballhandling, post up game, and outside that we can sign. not every player is a plug and play. i said it when we signed him, i thought he was a good fit. now he's not an option and i think it was the suns org that is seemingly increasingly unable to predict what might happen in the future and is making somewhat foolhardy moves in anticipation of what they HOPE will happen.

and who said anything about forfeiting the season? talk about putting words in mouths . . . people in glass houses . . .

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I wasn't terribly taken with the guys available at 21 either. I kept hoping maybe the Suns found a diamond in the rough, but I really lost interest when the Suns failed to trade up to get one of the three wings they had targeted.

BTW, I have a theory that the Suns already decided to do something with Sato and judged the prospects based on whether they were better him. If Bargnani is worth the #1 pick for being so good in the Italian league, then shouldn't a guy who averaged 27 points in the same league get some respect?

counting on sato is putting your eggs in a basket with a hole in the bottom. he's another undersized two guard who no one wanted.

 

[Joe Mama]

counting on sato is putting your eggs in a basket with a hole in the bottom. he's another undersized two guard who no one wanted.

if the Phoenix Suns really were counting on Sato you would be because people they trust have seen him lately and believe he will really make a difference on their team. Either that or they've seen him themselves. At the very least Mike D'Antoni probably has friends in Italy who could tell them about him and/or provide video.

Also, Sato is not really undersized. He is 6-3, but he's an extremely long player. At the time he was drafted he had a 6-11 wing span and a 8-6 1/2 standing reach.

Just to make it clear though, I don't believe the Phoenix Suns are making free-agent moves were drafted based on their expectations of Sato.

Joe

 

[JCSunsfan]

way to go Sarver - next time 'get it in writing'

thinking you're going to get the player is not the same as getting him

you could have had the best pg in the draft...passed on that for ?...Brilliant!

If he takes your advice, we lose five years of first round picks, ask anyone in Minny. They had a window in which they could negotiate with Thomas and it started on the first. Any negotiations, even with your own FA's is against the rules. Its why Cleveland couldn't say anything about their "agreement" with Boozer when he flew the coop.

There is a lesson in this. Never, never trust a sports agent.

 

[nowagimp]

if the Phoenix Suns really were counting on Sato you would be because people they trust have seen him lately and believe he will really make a difference on their team. Either that or they've seen him themselves. At the very least Mike D'Antoni probably has friends in Italy who could tell them about him and/or provide video.

Also, Sato is not really undersized. He is 6-3, but he's an extremely long player. At the time he was drafted he had a 6-11 wing span and a 8-6 1/2 standing reach.

Just to make it clear though, I don't believe the Phoenix Suns are making free-agent moves were drafted based on their expectations of Sato.

Joe

I agree with Joe Mama, Sato plays about 6'5", bigger than House, Barbs and Nash. He also is supposed to be a good 3pt shooter and rebounder. I find it hard to believe that DAntoni, with his contacts in italy doesnt have a pretty good idea of what sato can bring. DAntoni has also voiced his opinion publicly that the suns do not need undersized guards(sergio), so I dont think he will go sign one.

It looks like this year the suns will have another couple bench players to develop.

 

[nowagimp]

Old, fragile, breaks down come playoff time. Heard this about a past Suns free agent aquisition. Now you're complaining about giving Grant money, sort of ironic.

TT is a marginal player 11pts 5reb on 44% shooting in 25min is marginal when you consider he doesn't bring much defensively. How much time do you think he would have gotten if KT/Amare/Diaw/Marion are all healthy. The Suns gave Bell his contract because they felt he'd be a 6th man, TT would end up being the 8th man.

I forget but were the '03 Cards coming off back to back confrence championship games, with all-star calibur players at nearly every position?

TT shot 49% in the post season against playoff defense. The regular season was a warmup, fitting in with new teammates and system, those stats are meaningless. He provided a critical spacing element against opponents who played big guys. I predicted on this board that the clippers would be interested and that they would drop radmonivic(cant drive to the hoop) and take TT instead. This was a very good strategy for them, to eliminate a player from the suns who can take the big shot, demands spacing(critical for the suns offense) and add a bench player who can create his own shot in single coverage. The line of Brand Kaman and TT will look pretty big, physically. I give Dunleavy an A for the move. It also removes a big body(who can score) from the suns rotation, making the suns more susceptible to physical play. I also think that the suns are now going to depend on amare to have a bigger impact, with the loss of spacing, he'll be needed to work inside even more. After watching Dantoni bring the teajm out of the ashes last year, it will be interesting to watch the suns assemble their team. For the suns to really compete, Amare must come back healthy and contribute something like 20/9.

 

[sunsfn]

TT shot 49% in the post season against playoff defense. The regular season was a warmup, fitting in with new teammates and system, those stats are meaningless. He provided a critical spacing element against opponents who played big guys. I predicted on this board that the clippers would be interested and that they would drop radmonivic(cant drive to the hoop) and take TT instead. This was a very good strategy for them, to eliminate a player from the suns who can take the big shot, demands spacing(critical for the suns offense) and add a bench player who can create his own shot in single coverage. The line of Brand Kaman and TT will look pretty big, physically. I give Dunleavy an A for the move. It also removes a big body(who can score) from the suns rotation, making the suns more susceptible to physical play. I also think that the suns are now going to depend on amare to have a bigger impact, with the loss of spacing, he'll be needed to work inside even more. After watching Dantoni bring the teajm out of the ashes last year, it will be interesting to watch the suns assemble their team. For the suns to really compete, Amare must come back healthy and contribute something like 20/9.

Excellent post Gimp!!

 

[CaliSunsFan]

No team has been able to do that since the Joe Smith/Minnesota fiasco. The league has cracked down a lot since the strike year to eliminate any kind of wink-wink deal that arises.

Can you explain this? What happened? What was the wink wink deal?

 

[abomb]

Can you explain this? What happened? What was the wink wink deal?

Basically McHale had an "under the table" deal with Smith. The NBA caught them and took the T'Wolves five Round 1 draft picks and fined them $3.5 million.

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2000/1025/837930.html

 

[Errntknght]

The problem was that McHale and Smith didn't trust each other so they put the 'under the table' deal in writing! Somehow the league got ahold of a copy of it.