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Joe Mama said:
I think that's more than likely - doesn't mean I still don't want us to try and put together the best team possible Joe. The two notions aren't contradictory to each other.
Thomas NOT returning
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I think that's more than likely - doesn't mean I still don't want us to try and put together the best team possible Joe. The two notions aren't contradictory to each other.
cheesebeef said:
cheese, do you honestly think the Phoenix Suns should have matched or originally just offered the contract that the Clippers gave Tim Thomas?
Who did you want with those draft picks?
Joe
cheesebeef said:
1. No the Suns shouldn't fold up and bomb the season, but they also shouldn't pay a marginal player like TT a contract the Clips gave him to be the 4th or 5th frontcourt player.
2. Not signing JJ(who most people close with negotiations feel the Suns would have matched had he signed the offer sheet) or Finley(who the Suns offered the most they could for) ended up benefiting the Suns so I'm not sure why you bring them up. They tried to move up in the draft to get someone who could play and traded out because they didn't like anyone that was left. Are you upset the Suns didn't match what the Clips gave for TT? Market price or not I wouldn't have liked the deal if the Suns gave him as much as the Clips, especially when the Suns need more help at guard.
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Joe Mama said:
I didn't want anyone with those draft picks. I wanted them dealt so we could sign TT, which is what the Suns have said repeatedly was a good chunk of the reason they dealt the picks. Statements like "We like what we've got here. No rookies gonna play on this team. We need to keep the core together. Timmy is a big priority to us." Those statement don't jive with 3 years, 12 million dollars. Hell, they gave a bench guy, around the same age more than that last year with the MLE, remember? His name was Raja Bell and he was suppose dto be a depth signing. 3 years at 12 million is a joke. They low-balled him, plain and simple, and I don't think a 4 year 20 million dollar deal would have killed this team. And i think that probably would have gotten it done. But seriously, if I were TT and I saw a team not willing to a) make a commitment to me in years OR money, I'd be out the door as well. A 3 year contract for a guy at age 29 is the death knell.
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SunsTzu said:
and this baord turns into the Cards board circa 2003 more and more everyday. Now when every player leaves, it's his fault, his agent's fault, his play is donwgraded. Yeah, I've seen this before.
A marginal player? You know who's a marginal player - James Jones - and you know he makes the next couple years - 3 mill per season. Now considering the impact of that guy - you know - the guy who we had to close to rotation down to 6 players in the playoffs because of, versus a guy who has been a 11-13 point scorer EVERY YEAR in the regular season and then RAISES his game in the playoffs CONSISTENTLY and TT is the marginal player - yeah, that just wreaks of sour grapes.
Besides, what would it have really hurt if we signed him if we had an owner who backe dup his talk - you know - "I don't care about the tax. I want to win a ring". Doesn't seem like this move helps there, now does it?
cheesebeef said:
Look, Sarver knows he's going to be hugging that luxury tax line for a while. I'm pretty sure if David Griffin and Coach Mike had gone to Sarver and said that's how they wanted to spend all of the money on Tim Thomas that's what the Phoenix Suns would have done. The offer is probably indicative of how management valued Tim Thomas.
Joe
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SunsTzu said:
you tell me how we're gonna fix it without him? Lindsay Hunter? Bobby Jackson and his creeky 33 year old ass who's always injured? Didn't we already go down that road with Brian Grant last year? Do we learn from our mistakes? Oh, that's right. No, we don't.
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Oh - and George - you want to tell me again about how the conversation shouldn't be clsoed down because of money? IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY - and hell, this was about money AND GOING TO A WINNING TEAM. But yeah, I was wrong to continue telling you TT will get a high offer from a contender. Wrong as usual.
Errntknght
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At least we found out in a hurry that TT is lost. I wonder what would have happened if the Suns would have offered him 5yrs/16mil. I know we didn't want to have that long of a committment but at that salary he'd very probably be tradeable anytime we wanted. I think these decisions by the players are often very emotional and the five years would have been saying, "we want you with us for the rest of your career." Of course, Tellem would have been livid if he accepted but its possible it would have carried the day. Offering just half what the, heretofore, cheapest team in the league did certainly bordered on insulting.
I don't know why anyone wants Eddie House back. I guess if D'Antoni decided that he'd shown a lack of faith in Eddie down the stretch and in the playoffs and communicated that to him, it might be different this time around. (I'm not claiming that is what happened but it could be.) Failing that I'd expect about the same result this year, in which case its pointless to have him around again.
I think the situation with James Jones is different enough to hope that he'll rebound from his poor performance in the playoffs. For one thing he is on a longer contract and after the playoffs JJ spoke as though he felt he hadn't carried his weight and resolved to improve his game over the summer. Hopefully he'll groove his 'catch and shoot' and forget about kicking his leg out ala Reggie - it might have gotten him a few extra FTs but it also contributed to his being injured. I don't think he can generally bulk up enough to make a big difference and upper body work might bother his shot but he could sure stand to strengthen his lower body. A little more lift is likely to help his shot and it will add to his game in other ways as well - shotblocking and rebounding, at least. Over the long haul it would be nice if he could improve his handle but in the short run he could help himself a lot more by improving his off ball movement - which sucked last year. As far as his handle goes, I'd be happy to see him add a good one dribble and pop to his repretoire this year.
Its going to hurt our frontcourt depth to be sure but I really don't think TT's 3pt shooting is going to be missed that much - I expect JJ to come back and be better than last year. Besides Boris and Amare figure to extend their range somewhat - Boris started hitting a few threes at the end of the year and we've heard that Amare was knocking them down in practice. Nash will have fresh legs because we won't be working the P&R to death. On top of that with two threats inside in Amare and Boris we are going to be stressing defenses more than ever so our normal three point shooters are going to be open more often. I wouldn't be shocked if our new dual high post offense is so lethal that teams simply conceded open threes.
I kind of like the idea of Harpring if he's not too gimpy. He is an excellent baseline player and the Suns are going to have a very open baseline. Maybe he could help Bell, JJones and Shawn improve their baseline play - the evidence is prettty strong that we have no coach that has a clue about that aspect of the game.
I don't know why anyone wants Eddie House back. I guess if D'Antoni decided that he'd shown a lack of faith in Eddie down the stretch and in the playoffs and communicated that to him, it might be different this time around. (I'm not claiming that is what happened but it could be.) Failing that I'd expect about the same result this year, in which case its pointless to have him around again.
I think the situation with James Jones is different enough to hope that he'll rebound from his poor performance in the playoffs. For one thing he is on a longer contract and after the playoffs JJ spoke as though he felt he hadn't carried his weight and resolved to improve his game over the summer. Hopefully he'll groove his 'catch and shoot' and forget about kicking his leg out ala Reggie - it might have gotten him a few extra FTs but it also contributed to his being injured. I don't think he can generally bulk up enough to make a big difference and upper body work might bother his shot but he could sure stand to strengthen his lower body. A little more lift is likely to help his shot and it will add to his game in other ways as well - shotblocking and rebounding, at least. Over the long haul it would be nice if he could improve his handle but in the short run he could help himself a lot more by improving his off ball movement - which sucked last year. As far as his handle goes, I'd be happy to see him add a good one dribble and pop to his repretoire this year.
Its going to hurt our frontcourt depth to be sure but I really don't think TT's 3pt shooting is going to be missed that much - I expect JJ to come back and be better than last year. Besides Boris and Amare figure to extend their range somewhat - Boris started hitting a few threes at the end of the year and we've heard that Amare was knocking them down in practice. Nash will have fresh legs because we won't be working the P&R to death. On top of that with two threats inside in Amare and Boris we are going to be stressing defenses more than ever so our normal three point shooters are going to be open more often. I wouldn't be shocked if our new dual high post offense is so lethal that teams simply conceded open threes.
I kind of like the idea of Harpring if he's not too gimpy. He is an excellent baseline player and the Suns are going to have a very open baseline. Maybe he could help Bell, JJones and Shawn improve their baseline play - the evidence is prettty strong that we have no coach that has a clue about that aspect of the game.
Evil Ash
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cheesebeef said:
Kinda like JC didn't learn from his mistakes of overspending?
People want it both ways. They bitched that Colangelo spent too much money (and don't even bs me that you don't especially with the trade Marion for salary dumping purposes crap) but now want to bitch that the new owner shows restraint.
I don't want them to overpay for a career underacheiver that did well during a 3 month span of a contract year but I guess thats just me. He said winning was all that mattered to him but he leaves the first opportunity he gets for $$
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Evil Ash said:
I don't bitch about Marion's contract or the fact that the C's gave it to him because it's huge. I bitch about it because Sarver is cheap and keeping any kind of team together means we HAVE to move that deal. Sure, I hate that Shawn goes Tortilla in the playoffs in the WCF, but there's no doubt he's important to the club and again - the only reason he eventually HAS ot be moved is because Sarver won't pay what it takes to win a title IMO.
And Ash - do you want to show me where TT was ever a SUPERSTAR or a GREAT player at ANY TIME during his career to actually get the tag "career-under-achiever?" Or do you just follow the mass who actually never watched TT play, never stop to realize he's actually just been CONSISTENT in ALL OF HIS numbers throughout his career in the regular season and CONSISTENTLY BETTER in the post-season, but yet since someone gave himn a ridiculous contract (which you can't fault TT for), people expcetd more from him? Why would you expect more from someone who shown you exactly what he is?
As far as your last statement - again - here comes the 2003 Cards board smell - smash the player once he leaves, because it's NEVER our belved management's fault. Serioulsy, Ash - it's not like he's going to the freaking Hawks - he got a GREAT deal from a team that was ONE game from the WCF. Yeah - what a loser, going to a team with zero question marks and who values him over the team helped GET to the WCF. Sheesh, seriously, what's he thinking?
cheesebeef said:
Old, fragile, breaks down come playoff time. Heard this about a past Suns free agent aquisition. Now you're complaining about giving Grant money, sort of ironic.
TT is a marginal player 11pts 5reb on 44% shooting in 25min is marginal when you consider he doesn't bring much defensively. How much time do you think he would have gotten if KT/Amare/Diaw/Marion are all healthy. The Suns gave Bell his contract because they felt he'd be a 6th man, TT would end up being the 8th man.
I forget but were the '03 Cards coming off back to back confrence championship games, with all-star calibur players at nearly every position?
George O'Brien
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Sometimes I wonder if it is worth bothering to read posts when stuff like this happens. I thought TT would have been nice, but I sure wasn't advocating painting the team into a financial corner in the process.
Let's be clear, the Suns are not going to break the bank now with Diaw and possibly Barbosa up for major contracts. How many times have people posted items about how quickly the Suns are in the $70 million range? The simple truth is that most teams are trying to avoid going over the luxury tax and they don't have three All Stars and the leagues most improved player to worry about.
After a zillion posts comparing TT to Marion or KT, the bottom line is that the Suns were not willing to give those guys away to keep TT. By no small coincidence, Marion and KT are two of the Suns best defenders. TT was not.
In any case, this "Blame Sarver" campaign is getting lame.
Let's be clear, the Suns are not going to break the bank now with Diaw and possibly Barbosa up for major contracts. How many times have people posted items about how quickly the Suns are in the $70 million range? The simple truth is that most teams are trying to avoid going over the luxury tax and they don't have three All Stars and the leagues most improved player to worry about.
After a zillion posts comparing TT to Marion or KT, the bottom line is that the Suns were not willing to give those guys away to keep TT. By no small coincidence, Marion and KT are two of the Suns best defenders. TT was not.
In any case, this "Blame Sarver" campaign is getting lame.
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SunsTzu said:
sorry - but KT/Amare being healthy is HUGE question mark. Amare hasn't proven anything and KT is 34 years old who's body healed like father time from a stress fracture. Depending on perfect health from those guys is asking for trouble.
And are you really comparing Steve Nash to Bobby Jackson in the first part? Give me a break. Jackson has averged 50 games for the last 3 years as a BENCH player, not to mention he's still older. And, this doesn't even mention the fact that there's virtually nothing that tells us we're going to sign him anyway.
As far as the Cards comment, well, - eh - whatever, I'm kind of bored with this conversation and can't really articulate it well over the internet. Suffice to say, we've seen a constant stream of certain posters blaming everyone BUT management for player depatures. At some point, you have to look into why all of these players are leaving/not coming here.
Evil Ash
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cheesebeef said:
OK where to start.
First you may not have bitched about Marion being overpaid but there are plenty of others that have.
Second are you seriously suggesting that the Clips are going to beat the Mavs, the Spurs, and possibly us this year? Because thats the only way the "one game away from the WCF" argument stands. If he signed with the Heat, Spurs, or Mavs for the MLE then I'd bitch a helluva lot more. It seems winning the whole thing means less then a good paycheck
Third you seem to forget that the only reason that they were one game away from the WCF is because they were facing a Suns team that was missing Amare and Kurt Thomas.
He took a big payday and I don't have a problem with that but its like people are complaining about with Sarver its all about the spin that pisses me off. If you want to play for a chance to win it all, you don't sign onto the first team that offers you big cash.
George O'Brien said:
I posted this in the Vlad to La thread, but since the action is here, i'll just paraphrase my feelings.
And that is there unfortunately exists a masochistic/things are always as awful as they can be way to look at things viewpoint for some fans (of all teams).
Believe me I have been very upset with some things that have happened in the past two years, and very happy with others. But it seems to be with every move there always exists a let's "try and paint how awful this move is on every front no matter what" mindset.
I discussed the mindset to make this move look like it more than negligibly helps the clippers in the other thread.
and this thread is now detailing another belief that follows the masochistic line of thinking, and that is that tim thomas reputation as an underacheiver is false, in order to further paint how bad this is for the suns.
Do we forget at the end of the regular season a large portion of this board, not me, was actually sickened by tim thomas's inconsistent play?
I mean d'antoni during halftime of clippers/suns game 4/6 (cant remember which) responded to a question posed
why tim thomas was slow in that game, by saying "I don't know what's up, you're gonna have to ask him .."
basically implying tim was not working as hard in that non "must win" game as he had in others.
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cheesebeef said:
If the Suns don't feel they won't be healthy they better trade them because they are making too much money to not be playing. KT hasn't had injury problems recently with exception of this last year and the injury he had isn't chronic. Amare may be coming off microfracture but the Suns are not in a position to overpay someone just because he might not come back,
I don't like Jackson and really wouldn't want to spend much on him but the past 2 free agent periods were not recieved with much fan faire but have yielded great results for the Suns. I think they do need to find someone to help in the backcourt and add a low risk frontline guy too.
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Evil Ash said:
The Clippers won 46 games last year without one of their best players for 50 games. That player has since come back and shown the ability to play at the same level. Then there's us - we won 54 games, with two KEY GUYS as additions after losing Amare. One was KT - who is now ANOTHER YEAR older, and probably more susceptible to breaking down, especially on a team that runs like we do. The other guy was TT - remember him? And you keep atlking about Amare, but all we know about Amare is this - he's shown NOTHING so far. He's coming off a HORRENDOUS surgery that ends people's careers and to depend on that seems a little fool-hardy. So while you're saying we don't compare with the Clips, well, that's all and good if Amare is Amare (which is HIGHLY unlikely this year) and you're depending on another guy who's gonna be 35 years old come playoff time, with a history of injuries.
At this point, the Clippers, with a good mix of young talent and older vets have just asmuch, if not more talent than us and virtually ZERO question marks. As oppsoed to us, which is really, again, going into next season, One... BIg... Question mark.
Sorry Ash, but if you're TT and you value yourself and look at the Clippers and see a team that was in essence the 4th best team in the West (which they were) and then realize that by leaving the Suns (who were the thrid best team in the West), you are weakening that team which has question marks all over it AND you can get paid, it's hardly taking the first big deal offered to you. For a guy like TT, it's the best possible scenario. That ain't spin - it's reality.
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We will see how good an older tim thomas does during the playoffs after playing a whole 82 game season, without nash, without the suns offense, with most of the offense coming from kaman/brand/cassell aka his numbers are going to go down pretty bad.
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SunsTzu said:
that's funny - both my father and best friend - both of which are orhtopedic surgeons have said there is a very high risk of reinjuring stress fractures, especially as atheletes get older. But hey, what do they know? They're just bone specialists.
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CaptainInsano said:
you mean like his playoff number have ALWAYS gone down, no matter where he's played... oh that's right. They don't - they ALWAYS go up. But hey, I hope you're right. I hope that somehow TT, on a team with a good PG, who he's played with and played well with in the past and a double-team threat down low, does play really poorly.
Again - now that TT is gone - he's "an older TT" and apparently will comkpletely reverse his entire career of raising his game in the playoffs.
Evil Ash
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cheesebeef said:
TT played 27 games for us during the season. During that time we were slightly over .500.
You make it sound like the impact of KT and TT are comparable. They aren't. The only reason TT came here in the first place was because of the injurt to Kurt. Thats not spin thats reality
TT would be nice to sign but not at the full MLE. Lets put it this way during the entire offseason a great deal of people here have been whining about the amount of time that Nash was getting and how he was overtired. Yet these are the same people that want to spend our entire MLE on a forward.
How in the hell does that make sense?
cheesebeef said:
Yes you're right, some people always spin things in the positive light. But don't you see you're doing the exact same thing, except spinning every aspect of this move towards the negative.
There's definitely negatives about this move (especially if they screw up the rest of free agency), but come on arguing that fans/commentators/coaches who've argued that tim thomas will occassionally dog it are all wrong just to paint this as negative as you can, that's just masochistic.
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Evil Ash said:
As far as the first point, Ash - do you think we even play .500 ball without TT? Do you think we get out of the first round of th eplayoffs without him? Right there I'd say his impact was pretty great to this team. Was it KT great? No - but KT also played while Eddie House was lighting up the scoreboard and JJ actually knew how to play basketball. How would we have fared with Kurt with both of those guys completely going in the tank like they did? I'm assuming... around .500.
As far as the people wanting to spend the MLE and being the same people bicthing about Nash's rest and how doe sthat make any sense - I don't know. Why don't you ask those people because I've never said one word about a tired Nash and needing to desperately get a back-up PG. I'm a believer in DA when he says Barbs is our back-up PG and Nash will be mroe rested because of Amare and having to do less creating.
I have no problem going into the year with a backcourt rotation of Nash, Bell and Leo. Hell, it's better than what we had in 2004-5 when Nash was fresh in the playoffs and Leo never got off the freraking bench. Not to mention that with Boris being able to come and play a little point, I'm not of the opinion that we need to get a backup PG in here to get Nash that rest. Boris and Amare should be able to provide that for him.
