Thoughts and Concerns

Mitch

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In light of how physical the Cardinals had been with the Giants for the first 55 minutes, I actually believed there for a commercial break that they were going to prevail. I mean they even had Pro Bowl RG Chris Snee out of sorts---there were signs everywhere that the Giants were meant to wallow away in frustration---and yet---in what seemed faster than a New York minute---to the tune of 7/8 passes to wide open receivers for the sum of 126 yards and 2 TDs---an average of almost 18 yards per catch---it was a free NY gift-wrapping at FAO Schwartz.

The thing is---it's not only WHY this happened it is HOW this happened. How many times have we seen the Cardinal defense go into a complete and utter shell late in halfs, especially with the game on the line?

Ken Whisenhunt claimed that he didn't watch the tape of the Super Bowl---which makes a good deal of sense in that here Whisenhunt's Cardinals are three years later and they look even worse than ever---

There still is no edge pressure whatsoever---in fact, just as in the Super Bowl the edge rushers not only are getting stopped in their tracks 15 feet into their rushes, they stop even trying.

The DBs are nowhere near the receivers either.

When a team rushes 4...defenses can play sticky man to man on the 5 eligible receivers and protect deep with 2 safeties.

How is it, that in a game of this magnitude---after such a Herculean effort for 55 minutes that the DBs are nowhere near the receivers? How is it that there is no pressure whatsoever on the QB?

Why are the players and coaches gift-wrapping these games?

Here are some of the problems:

1. Not only is Joey Porter looking especially weak in his pass rush this year---weakest ever for him---what exacerbates the situation is the coaches again are playing him all game long. When the game is on the line---he's shot and has no chance.

2. Same with Haggans on the other side. He's gassed.

3. Same with Dockett and Campbell---they are gassed.

4. If you can't get pressure with 4 gassed players, what are the next best choices? Sub packages---and full-tilt blitzes.

What full-tilt blitzes do is they force the defense to be aggressive...both in the rush and in the coverage. Seems to be a better option than lining up like sitting ducks.

5. On the game winning TD to Hicks---did you notice who the deep safety was to that side? Yup. You got it. Adrian Wilson. Can you believe it? It's like playing LT Levi Brown on an island versus Osi Umenyioura. Again, can you believe it?

When Eli Manning saw Wilson to Hick's side---the play was a given. It was a no brainer---all Hicks had to do was get a step ahead of Peterson---who did like most Cardinal CBs do---he quit on the play. Egregious on his part, rookie or no. He wasn't that beat to where he couldn't make a play. He made little effort to stay with Hicks.

To make matters worse---the game winning TD to Hicks was basically the same play that Kolb tried to Fitz that Rolle came over the top an intercepted. Ironically, Rolle never showed over the top cover ability as a Cardinal. Like Wilson, his interceptions were always in the intermediate range.

Seems there is a little more coaching and use of common sense on the other team, isn't there?

Then---on the last offensive drive---which was going reasonably well until the screen pass---here are the reasons why---as open as the play seemed to be that call was first of all unnecessary and second of all just plain stupid:

1. It is 2nd and 1. There's well over a minute left on the clock and the team is a mere 10 yards from the red zone. The Giants' right side hasn't been able to stop Beanie Wells all day. For as shaky a pass protector that Levi Brown is---he is an absolute beast in the running game.

2. If you are going to pass in that situation---it should not be out of a shotgun---it should be off of play action. The fact that the Cardinals were in the shotgun told the Giants to play pass first---which they obviously did.

3. You DON'T call a screen there because: (a) the Cardinals under Ken Whisenhunt have NEVER run the screen properly; (b) Beanie Wells is just as likely to drop the pass as he is to catch it; (c) Kevin Kolb is too antsy to run the play the way it's supposed to run---ironically of all the time it would have paid for Kolb to drift backward, this was the one, and yet he stood there like the Statue of Liberty.

This week's SCREEN PASS was last week's HITCH pass---two plays in critical situations that the Cardinals NEVER run well, both of which helped to cost the Cardinals the games.

Speaking of Kolb, I will get this out now---have you ever seen an NFL QB run backwards as often as he does? Half the time it is totally unnecessary---and some of the time it results in drive killers---as in getting sacked or called for intentional downing.

What I loved about Warner was---he treated every play as brand new---even after he got sacked. It's called maintaining your poise and proper footwork.

Kolb has neither: poise nor footwork.

And this has got to change.

if somehow you think the Cardinals can win having their QB flushing out early all the time---you are mistaken. The Cardinals are losing these games for a reason and this one of the major ones.

4. Then, of course, it's the 4th and 1 and not using the timeout. Same as in the first half, which was awful then and even more awful with all the marbles on the line. And---everyone in the stadium knew exactly what the play was.

The Giants showed how a defense closes out a game---they rush the QB and they apply tight coverage. There is no other way. Except for what we repeatedly see from the Cardinals.

The pass plays---last week there were bunch routes out of trips, where two defenders could cover three receivers. This week there were spread 5 man hook passes---do you realize how hard that is for a QB to read, especially versus 4-5 defenders?

The point of the day was made by Goose and Moose---that Kolb in Philly was used to keying deep first and under routes second---yet here in Arizona is all under under under with a rare deep throw.

In Washington Kolb threw deep once---it was a 70 yard TD to Fitz.

In Seattle it was once to Fitz in the first half.

Yesterday---only twice---the deep catch by Fitz and the Rolle interception.

In the last three games, Kolb has not thrown deep to any other WR.

Again if this doesn't change---this offense will continue to sputter, especially in key spots where DBs can cherry pick to their delight.

On both defense and offense the Cardinals hand the ballgames over too easily---it's as if they always deep down expect to lose versus a solid opponent---and that's a culture that needs to change---and yet with the way this team is coached (if there aren't major changes in practicing late half situations and suddenly being aggressive)---as passive as they are on both sides of the ball late in halfs---this culture won't change anytime soon.
 
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Russ Smith

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Some good points.

on the Rolle pick vs the Hicks Td the other difference is of course ball placement. Kolb didn't put the ball on Fitz, he led him to the inside which is precisely where the help was coming from. If he threw that to the sideline there's far less chance Rolle can get there. The announcers were talking about him staring down Fitz on the play but he really didn't hold the ball that long he got rid of it very quickly. The problem is he didn't put it in the right location and Rolle was able to get there and make the pick, I have no problem with the decision to throw to Fitz, you just gotta put it much closer to the sideline.

I would agree asking Wilson to cover that much ground is just bad coaching, he couldn't do that when he was young, now, no way. And yes Peterson did give up, so did about half the defense on that play thought Campbell as much admitted he did he said they took advantage of our emotions we were still mad about the last call. Just bad, Peterson has no excuse but at least he's a rookie and can hopefully be coached out of that.

One of the big disappointments to me was watching Schofield on the last Giants drives. he was in a fair amount and did nothing, and he didn't even seem to be all that interested in playing, couple of plays he literally ran into the blocker made no effort at all. Very disenchanting, I'm assuming he's frustrated he doesn't play more but not hustling isn't going to get you any more reps.
 
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Mitch

Mitch

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Some good points.

on the Rolle pick vs the Hicks Td the other difference is of course ball placement. Kolb didn't put the ball on Fitz, he led him to the inside which is precisely where the help was coming from. If he threw that to the sideline there's far less chance Rolle can get there. The announcers were talking about him staring down Fitz on the play but he really didn't hold the ball that long he got rid of it very quickly. The problem is he didn't put it in the right location and Rolle was able to get there and make the pick, I have no problem with the decision to throw to Fitz, you just gotta put it much closer to the sideline.

I would agree asking Wilson to cover that much ground is just bad coaching, he couldn't do that when he was young, now, no way. And yes Peterson did give up, so did about half the defense on that play thought Campbell as much admitted he did he said they took advantage of our emotions we were still mad about the last call. Just bad, Peterson has no excuse but at least he's a rookie and can hopefully be coached out of that.

One of the big disappointments to me was watching Schofield on the last Giants drives. he was in a fair amount and did nothing, and he didn't even seem to be all that interested in playing, couple of plays he literally ran into the blocker made no effort at all. Very disenchanting, I'm assuming he's frustrated he doesn't play more but not hustling isn't going to get you any more reps.

Good points, Russ. I noticed that on a couple of occasions the Giants doubled Schofield---and, seeing as he had the only fresh legs in there, it was smart on their part.

And on the interception, Kolb didn't even check to see where the safety was he just turned and threw the ball up. You have to look the safety off on that play and he didn't---he's just way too anxious.
 

PJ1

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Good points, Russ. I noticed that on a couple of occasions the Giants doubled Schofield---and, seeing as he had the only fresh legs in there, it was smart on their part.

And on the interception, Kolb didn't even check to see where the safety was he just turned and threw the ball up. You have to look the safety off on that play and he didn't---he's just way too anxious.

Good point on the pick. Heap was running an underneath crossing pattern and just a look at him could have caused Rolle to come up a bit. Kolb never took his eyes off of Fitz and did in fact place the ball on the wrong shoulder as Russ indicated.
 

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Then---on the last offensive drive---which was going reasonably well until the screen pass---here are the reasons why---as open as the play seemed to be that call was first of all unnecessary and second of all just plain stupid:

1. It is 2nd and 1. There's well over a minute left on the clock and the team is a mere 10 yards from the red zone. The Giants' right side hasn't been able to stop Beanie Wells all day. For as shaky a pass protector that Levi Brown is---he is an absolute beast in the running game.

2. If you are going to pass in that situation---it should not be out of a shotgun---it should be off of play action. The fact that the Cardinals were in the shotgun told the Giants to play pass first---which they obviously did.

3. You DON'T call a screen there because: (a) the Cardinals under Ken Whisenhunt have NEVER run the screen properly; (b) Beanie Wells is just as likely to drop the pass as he is to catch it; (c) Kevin Kolb is too antsy to run the play the way it's supposed to run---ironically of all the time it would have paid for Kolb to drift backward, this was the one, and yet he stood there like the Statue of Liberty.

~snip~

4. Then, of course, it's the 4th and 1 and not using the timeout. Same as in the first half, which was awful then and even more awful with all the marbles on the line. And---everyone in the stadium knew exactly what the play was.
.


I can't describe how much I agree with you on this. It was infuriating. It was a series of unacceptable calls and decisions and "execution" (and the execution failure should be expected given the situations and plays called). You simply can't be a good coach and roll that jackassery out there. Starting from 2nd and 1, with a hot hand in Beanie and you run Cardinals Kryptonite, the screen play, which we can't RUN or DEFEND.

THAT was what you reached deep into your trickbag to grab at a crucial juncture of the game? Wow, Whis. Just wow. (And for those of you who are buying that Miller is really the OC, super...the head coach should have instantly overridden that monumentally stupid play call..except for the fact that he likely called it. I digress).

And culminating in a rushed fourth down and 2 play...(after failing on a rushed play at the half where you left timeouts on the field)...a play that we all saw coming and little time to set up and get the first down. 4th and 2, game on the line. Playbook is open as it can be...and you RUSH to the line (let's not think about our mistake prone OL which shockingly didn't false start under the pressure) to get off that play? Call the TO, that is the freaking situation TOs are perfect for. Gather your team, draw up the right play and "execute." Here's a tip if you want to have them execute by the way...put them in positions and plays that cater to their strengths, and not to their weaknesses.

SMH



Good point on the pick. Heap was running an underneath crossing pattern and just a look at him could have caused Rolle to come up a bit. Kolb never took his eyes off of Fitz and did in fact place the ball on the wrong shoulder as Russ indicated.

Absolutely...look him off and Larry is wide open..and you KNOW that Antron would have bitten on it. But Kolb is Larry Locking like crazy and doesn't even know there are other reads on the field, much less think about looking the safety off.
 

az1965

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In light of how physical the Cardinals had been with the Giants for the first 55 minutes, I actually believed there for a commercial break that they were going to prevail. I mean they even had Pro Bowl RG Chris Snee out of sorts---there were signs everywhere that the Giants were meant to wallow away in frustration---and yet---in what seemed faster than a New York minute---to the tune of 7/8 passes to wide open receivers for the sum of 126 yards and 2 TDs---an average of almost 18 yards per catch---it was a free NY gift-wrapping at FAO Schwartz.

...

On both defense and offense the Cardinals hand the ballgames over too easily---it's as if they always deep down expect to lose versus a solid opponent---and that's a culture that needs to change---and yet with the way this team is coached (if there aren't major changes in practicing late half situations and suddenly being aggressive)---as passive as they are on both sides of the ball late in halfs---this culture won't change anytime soon.
I absolutely agree with all of these... Have been saying about Kolb, he moves too far back most of the time or flushes out of the pocket too often even when there is no pressure.
 

Buckybird

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Absolutely...look him off and Larry is wide open..and you KNOW that Antron would have bitten on it. But Kolb is Larry Locking like crazy and doesn't even know there are other reads on the field, much less think about looking the safety off.

Thats exactly what happens when you target #11 what seems like 70% of the time. Kolb has to make teams pay by using other weapons. Roberts had 0 passes thrown his way yesterday & he's your supposed starter. If I'm the opposing team until Kolb proves he can do that consistantly I'm focusing on Fitz at all times & never leaving him in single coverage. Teams know as of today nobody on this roster will beat them deep other than Fitz.
 

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Kevin Kolb reminds me of a taller Max Hall without the elf ears.
 

az jam

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A very, very frustrating loss again. Your analysis Mitch is right on. I just see this being a long and losing season again with the Card having another top 10 draft pick.
I was at the game and I feel its the same old Cardinals. I'm old and not sure that I want to spend my money on going to these games and hearing the same old crap from the organization.
 

Jetstream Green

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they need to put one of those electronic fences on Kolb which they make for dogs, just wire it into his helmet's headset and this way he will stay in the pocket and then a guy upstairs can turn it down when he thinks its time for him to move out ;)
 
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splitsecond

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Good points, Russ. I noticed that on a couple of occasions the Giants doubled Schofield---and, seeing as he had the only fresh legs in there, it was smart on their part.

And on the interception, Kolb didn't even check to see where the safety was he just turned and threw the ball up. You have to look the safety off on that play and he didn't---he's just way too anxious.

From where I sit in the stadium (row 4 upper level, just up the sideline from the corner of the endzone) I watched that INT unfold. I literally watched Kolb turn straight to Fitz, stare him down and put it up. And that pass came out all wrong and was destined to be picked from the moment it was released. I saw it in slow motion almost. Or maybe that was all the beer slowing down my perception.
 

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We need to sub in all the rookies during the game, for a whole series or two, to keep the veterans fresh, or you could just sub them in throughout the game.

We totally gas our defense for some reason.

They aint going to learn anything sitting on the bench.
 

NeverSayDieFan

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GOOD points,Mitch...

As always. I enjoy your in-sights.

I try not to dwell too much on a loss...especially ones like this. But, here's some things that are head-scratchers to me.

1./ WHY do we insist on these quick-slants when the game is on the line? I understand the strategy( ie; a bang-bang play) BUT...your WR is going to get jostled at the line by the DB throwing off the timing...if he does get off the line he has to somehow quickly get in position to catch a bullet-quick pass. The margin of error is too small to my liking...And a DL can easily put his hands up blocking the pass out-right or blocking the QB's line of vision.

My solution: Have a designed play to LSH who has the elusiveness to get open. It's 4th-down...A lil' sand-lot play should get someone open.

2./ 1st and goal from the Giants 1 and...WE PASS?? With our o-line the sack probability was high. Fortunately, Beanie scored on the next play.

My solution: Pound it 3 x's or mix in a sprint to the corner. IF you can't gain a single yard in 3 tries you deserve to get beat.

3./ We kept running to the left (Yes, w/success) but on 3rd and 1 in the red-zone we went to the well once too often, got stuffed, and had to settle for the FG.
My solution: STOP being so predictable! NO ONE was fooled by the call. Least of all the Giants' D.

Final point. Like most, I agree that Kolb is acting skittish in the pocket BUT, c'mon...With Brown and Keith for tackles..Wouldn't YOU??

Ok! I'm done w/ my rant.

GO CARDS! :D
 

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Mitch, again, thanks. Like you I'm concerned about KK's poise, or lack thereof, in the pocket. And your point about Wilson and not Johnson helping out on the winning score was well taken. I disagree on the screen pass call, though I know we have been bad on screens in the past. Kent Somers said that we had the play set up perfectly, and all KK had to do was to get the ball over the rushers. He couldn't.

Another point on the Rolle INT. I didn't think that Fitz made a play for the ball, and I think that was because while he had been treated for cramps on the sideline, I don't think he was 100%. I remember back to the earlier pass he snatched away from two Giant defenders, and on the INT he didn't seem to have the ability to elevate or probably run as fast.

Bottom line, you raised some great concerns. I will add that our DL (all six) is coming along, and seem VG against the run. The Vikes and Peterson will be a good test.
 

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1. It is 2nd and 1. There's well over a minute left on the clock and the team is a mere 10 yards from the red zone. The Giants' right side hasn't been able to stop Beanie Wells all day. For as shaky a pass protector that Levi Brown is---he is an absolute beast in the running game.

2. If you are going to pass in that situation---it should not be out of a shotgun---it should be off of play action. The fact that the Cardinals were in the shotgun told the Giants to play pass first---which they obviously did.

I don't like passing at all in that situation. I'd MUCH rather they run and use play action on 3rd down.

Whisenhunt, as I have learned, loves to outsmart himself.
 
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D-Dogg

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Kent Somers said that we had the play set up perfectly, and all KK had to do was to get the ball over the rushers. He couldn't.

Kent Somers is wrong, then. Levi blew his part of the screen, allowing the defenders in too fast and before Beanie could get in place and forcing the failure. Someone posted a screen of it and you can see it quite clearly. It's more clear on the video...Levi needed to give a bit more effort on his guy before releasing him through...he didn't. Kolb was stuck before the play fully developed.

Regardless, the play call in that situation was ridiculous - too many problems with that play both in our ability to consistently (or ever) execute it, and too many moving parts in the first place when you need a yard. 2nd and 1, go playaction and take a shot downfield if you want to throw. But a middle field screen when the team rarely if ever executes it with the game on the line? No way. And why get cute? Pound it some more, as it had been working.
 

Russ Smith

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From where I sit in the stadium (row 4 upper level, just up the sideline from the corner of the endzone) I watched that INT unfold. I literally watched Kolb turn straight to Fitz, stare him down and put it up. And that pass came out all wrong and was destined to be picked from the moment it was released. I saw it in slow motion almost. Or maybe that was all the beer slowing down my perception.

Yep and despite all that if he'd just thrown it to Fitz' back shoulder, it's not only not picked, it's probably a TD because Rolle was the deep safety just like on their TD to Nicks. The difference was Kolb threw to the inside and Rolle was fast enough to get there. Manning threw it over the top of Nicks and Wilson wasn't even close to fast enough to get there. it was almost the identical play Fitz beat their CB, Nicks beat Peterson, but Manning threw the ball in the perfect spot and Kolb threw it right where Rolle was being led to by Kolb's eyes.

He'll learn that or he won't be a successful NFL QB.
 

Russ Smith

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Kent Somers is wrong, then. Levi blew his part of the screen, allowing the defenders in too fast and before Beanie could get in place and forcing the failure. Someone posted a screen of it and you can see it quite clearly. It's more clear on the video...Levi needed to give a bit more effort on his guy before releasing him through...he didn't. Kolb was stuck before the play fully developed.

Regardless, the play call in that situation was ridiculous - too many problems with that play both in our ability to consistently (or ever) execute it, and too many moving parts in the first place when you need a yard. 2nd and 1, go playaction and take a shot downfield if you want to throw. But a middle field screen when the team rarely if ever executes it with the game on the line? No way. And why get cute? Pound it some more, as it had been working.

I disagreed with Buckybird on that Sunday but I'm now at the point where I think Bucky is probably right. Whiz said the exact same thing and he's got to have better angles to look at than I did? Whiz said he has to throw that.

I still think Brown hosed it by letting go too soon and Beanie was still trying to get to where Kolb was going to throw it, but I do think now he probably should have just tried to lob it over Tollefson because as Bucky and others said even if it's incomplete, as long as he doesn't ground it, it's 3rd and 1.

But the timing was terrible and browns stupid ole and shove the guy in the back move actually helped him get to Kolb faster. If Kolb has just a split second longer he could have moved back and left and gotten it around Tollefson but he couldn't because Levi's man was there too.
 

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Scenario.

You are hostage to South American rebels, they have you chained to a fence, a grenade in your mouth rigged so all you have to do is bite down and it's all over.

They tell you that you have one chance to live, as they watch the Cardinals on tv they tell you if they run a successful screen pass for a first down you can live, otherwise you die a horrible slow death.

You have 5 seconds before the grenade goes dead as soon as the Cardinals attempt a screen pass.

I'm biting down on the grenade.
 

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I don't like passing at all in that situation. I'd MUCH rather they run and use play action on 3rd down.

Now that you mention it, I don't remember seeing any play action. You would think with Beanie running the way he was, it would be a really effective weapon. Could it be they just didn't have a chance to practice it with Beanie being limited?
 

dreamcastrocks

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Now that you mention it, I don't remember seeing any play action. You would think with Beanie running the way he was, it would be a really effective weapon. Could it be they just didn't have a chance to practice it with Beanie being limited?

I remember a couple of play-actions, but that's about it. I don't think they trust the offensive line to block long enough for play action to develop. Kolb obviously doesn't.

Welcome to ASFN, btw.
 

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Welcome to ASFN, btw.

Thanks. I was hesitiant to join ASFN at first because I don't have anywhere close to the football knowledge that most people here have. I mean how could I have anything intelligent to add? So I joined the other "official" forum. I figured that was closer to my level. I didn't even post. Just looking at some of the conversations I would be getting myself into, I couldn't do it. So here I am. Maybe I'll learn something!
 

Russ Smith

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Thanks. I was hesitiant to join ASFN at first because I don't have anywhere close to the football knowledge that most people here have. I mean how could I have anything intelligent to add? So I joined the other "official" forum. I figured that was closer to my level. I didn't even post. Just looking at some of the conversations I would be getting myself into, I couldn't do it. So here I am. Maybe I'll learn something!

Don't be silly you fit right in and I second DCR in welcoming you I hadn't realized you were new I never look at post count.
 

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