Thoughts on T Levi Brown and RB Brian Leonard

[dreamcastrocks]

I would not trade down past HOU because they will take Brown. I say we should take Levi Brown at 5 as well because he would be our starting LT from Day 1. If we could either get Hughes or Staley in Round 2 and Crowder in Round 3 that would be an amazing draft.

I disagree. Not only will you be able to aquire extra pick(s) by trading down, but you will save money. Even just 3 spots will save a million or two guaranteed.

If we are high on Levi Brown, you have to trade with Houston.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I disagree. Not only will you be able to aquire extra pick(s) by trading down, but you will save money. Even just 3 spots will save a million or two guaranteed.

If we are high on Levi Brown, you have to trade with Houston.

I completely agree.

Thanks to Zeno who said:

Washington(Samuels & Jansen) and Minnesota(McKinnie & Cook) won't draft Brown especially with the other needs both teams have...but they could trade that pick to a team that would, I suppose.

I think it is safe to say Levi Brown will be there at #8.

I would think Wash. and Minnesota will go DT or DE.

 

[john h]

I would be concerned if one DIDN'T show explosion at the Senior Bowl, because you are costing yourself money. But, unfortunately, Levi DOES seem to fit the mold of what Whiz/Grimm would want in a lineman. I still think Thomas is better overall and a much safer choice if we're to go Brown vs. Thomas. If it came down to it I'd prefer to trade down so and get him, to minimize the blow IF he were to bust and to snag more picks. Alas, I think about Houston and the Travis Johnson incident if we were to trade down, which makes me leery of it.

If Brown is this good then you can bet the other teams also know it so trading down is a real risk if you expect to get a particular player. We played this game once before and the guy we wanted was gone. Let us not repeat that again. If Brown is that good then take him with your first pick rather than Thomas. I do not know who is better but if 9 out of 10 gurus who rate these guys have Thomas on top I would tend to think twice about being smarter than the rest of the league. Just get the best player Mr. Graves.

 

[john h]

Then, failing a miracle signing of or trade for an OT, who do we use as a backup? A late round pick? That way lies losing. We have to have at the very least one, like it or not, and that is in addition to a starter.

Stout: The Cards have not yet played the infamous "June Cuts" card where we will surely find the missing OL we seek.

 

[D-Dogg]

If we got both Brown and Staley in round one and two, we'd be set at OL for many, many years. I could not complain.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Staley is moving up the board ...

23. KANSAS CITY CHIEFS

JOE STALEY

OT | Central Michigan | Scouting Report

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For years this franchise has been spoiled with outstanding offensive line play but those days have come to an end and with Willie Roaf retiring before last season and Will Shields set to ride into the sunset as well there are some major concerns up front. Heck, they even lost Jordan Black as a free agent this year! Enter Joe Staley, a former tight end with outstanding feet and athleticism who blew scouts away in his workout by running a low 4.8 at over 300 lbs. In a class that doesn't feature many top offensive tackle prospects, let alone guys who can legitimately play on the left side, Staley should prove to be a very valuable commodity on Draft Day. Wide receiver is also a need since Eddie Kennison and Samie Parker didn't get the job done last year and there could be some terrific value still on the board in the form of Dwayne Bowe, Robert Meachem and Dwayne Jarrett so they could very easily opt to go in that direction as well. As darkhorses you probably can't rule out defensive tackle or cornerback for Kansas City either.


http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html



They have both Ugoh and Staley gone by our 2nd pick ...

 

[ARZCardinals]

My question to all of this is ?

WHAT IF:

Joe Thomas is taken at #2 by the Lions.

The Cardinals trade with Houston, thinking they still can get Levi Brown. Then either Washington or Minnesota takes Levi Brown.

Then Joe Staley (who I am not that high on) is taken in the middle of round 1.

Now the Cardinals are left with the #8 pick in the draft, an extra 3rd rounder, and a 6th round pick but no top prospect LT to show for it.

That is a likely scenario as any, and my biggest worry.

Not only does this leave the Cardinals in the exact same boat as last year (good team with no offensive line), it makes them look even more stupid, and cheap than they already are preceived.

I would take Thomas or Brown with the number five pick. For the reason that Joe Thomas would be a perfect pick for #5, and Levi Brown is still a reach but no by that much, and it also fills a HUGE, ENORMOUS, FESTERING, LINGERING need that has plagued the Cardinals for almost a decade.

well said...and that's EXACTLY what happened when we traded our pick for Suggs and ended up with BJ and Pace....the guys they wanted (both) were gone...they ended up looking like fools with the Pace pick. I remember the announcers after the Pace pick, "Who, well that's a stretch...he's probably not even watching. He couldn't have been expected to get picked until the 3rd round."

BJ pick has been ok, but not near as good as Suggs has.

 

[football karma]

They have both Ugoh and Staley gone by our 2nd pick ...

I dont know about Ugoh --

but assuming the Lions take Thomas, that still leaves the Raiders and to a lesser extent, the Browns and Bucs all looking for offensive line help.

Even if Staley makes it to the second round, I doubt he lasts until the Cards pick.

A legitmate Plan B might be a Arron Sears of Tennessee, or Blalock of Texas -- both are considered a bit short for tackle, but both played right tackle at a high level in college. One or both could be there in round 2.

Wells then gets moved to Left tackle.

 

[JeffGollin]

We can get by with Ross and Gorin providing depth for a season. Our day one draft picks have to be guys who will contribute significant playing time.

How many times over the past 3 decades have we talked ourselves of a sense of urgency about the O-line? And how often has it cost us dearly?

Interesting take by ESPN's Scouts Inc. - who observed that many successful teams followed the model of (a) a really good LT plus (b) 4 other unknowns whom the team developed. You could make the case that Wells is our "LT" (despite protecting Matt's blindside over on the right). But he's hardly the dominant blocking LT Scouts Inc. is referring to.

I think the Cards - by cutting LD and their inaction at acquiring a new LT during the first phase of free agency - have painted themselves into a corner. Regardless of what Rod and KW tell you about BPA, I think this year we'll take Joe Thomas or Levi Brown (with Brown going to us at #5 or via a trade-down of a couple of notches). The problem with trying to get Staley at #37 (or via a trade down late in Round One) is that there are other teams who rate him highly and could be expected to jump in and get him before we can.[

Regarding Brian Leonard. The buzz about the Cardinals showing interest probably centers around 2 factors: (1) the need for a FB and (2) the desire for a certain type of character player that the coaches feel are needed if we're to become a winning FB team.

Leonard, though big, is not a prototype leading blocking FB. Although he can catch well out of the backfield, he's not a devestating lead blocker. In addition, he' rather play tailback. As a big tailback, I'm not sure he has Brandon Jacobs type strength and explosion.

And I'm not sure "character in the locker room" is important enough for him to be considered at #37.(Maybe at around #69 but not #37).

 

[Southpaw]

Do it. I like them both. Trade down, whatever.

 

[lobo]

[quote

I think the Cards - by cutting LD and their inaction at acquiring a new LT during the first phase of free agency - have painted themselves into a corner. Regardless of what Rod and KW tell you about BPA, I think this year we'll take Joe Thomas or Levi Brown (with Brown going to us at #5 or via a trade-down of a couple of notches). The problem with trying to get Staley at #37 (or via a trade down late in Round One) is that there are other teams who rate him highly and could be expected to jump in and get him before we can.[

Two quick questions Jeff.

Would you have matched the Cowboy offer or exceeded it for Davis?

Whom do you seriously think was available that would have been a differnece maker or a standout tackle...say that much better than Gandy if we sign him?

Do you think Brown has the ability (assuming we can't get Thomas) or Staley has the ability to exceed who was "truly" available. I don't believe Columbo was one we could have signed. Your thoughts please.

 

[CardNots]

[quote

I think the Cards - by cutting LD and their inaction at acquiring a new LT during the first phase of free agency - have painted themselves into a corner. Regardless of what Rod and KW tell you about BPA, I think this year we'll take Joe Thomas or Levi Brown (with Brown going to us at #5 or via a trade-down of a couple of notches). The problem with trying to get Staley at #37 (or via a trade down late in Round One) is that there are other teams who rate him highly and could be expected to jump in and get him before we can.[

Two quick questions Jeff.

Would you have matched the Cowboy offer or exceeded it for Davis?

Whom do you seriously think was available that would have been a differnece maker or a standout tackle...say that much better than Gandy if we sign him?

Do you think Brown has the ability (assuming we can't get Thomas) or Staley has the ability to exceed who was "truly" available. I don't believe Columbo was one we could have signed. Your thoughts please.

Now, how can one continue to rant here if you piss all over his fire with good questions? Are you seriouly trying to lead one to the promise land? Get them to see the error of their ways? I would think your aim is missing the fire and going directly into the wind.

 

[Pariah]

Regarding Brian Leonard. The buzz about the Cardinals showing interest probably centers around 2 factors: (1) the need for a FB and (2) the desire for a certain type of character player that the coaches feel are needed if we're to become a winning FB team.

Leonard, though big, is not a prototype leading blocking FB. Although he can catch well out of the backfield, he's not a devestating lead blocker. In addition, he' rather play tailback. As a big tailback, I'm not sure he has Brandon Jacobs type strength and explosion.

Could it be that Leonard reminds Whiz of himself?

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Wrong Topic. D'oh.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Mitch

i was at my first and only college game in november and watched rutgers vs syracuse.

I wasnt impressed with leonard - Rice certainly caught the eye though.

Id be surprised if Leonard was a 2nd rounder

As a lifelong Syracuse fan I just hope you were rooting for my orangemen. Leonard is not so much going early for what he did in college but what people with his physical attributes are capable of doing in the pros. You can't teach size, speed and power.

 

[Stout]

Ross and Gorin are both former starters, both are average players but former starters so yeah they are very much "known entities". I said they were both guys for depth not starters.

I'm not suggesting drafting for need you are--you are the one saying we need to draft 2 OTs in the first day.

I'm saying we get the best player available that can contribute immediately.

Oh, my bad. You have a better alternative for finding a starting LT?

You said Ross and Gorin are depth players. That still leaves us a starting LT short. I don't think we can 100 percent count on them for depth, so I reason that we need two LT--one to start, and one for depth. Where we gettin' 'em from, bud?

 

[Zeno]

Oh, my bad. You have a better alternative for finding a starting LT?

You said Ross and Gorin are depth players. That still leaves us a starting LT short. I don't think we can 100 percent count on them for depth, so I reason that we need two LT--one to start, and one for depth. Where we gettin' 'em from, bud?

I think we need one OT to start(I'm not arguing that point) and we already have 2 on the roster for depth.

 

[Stout]

I think we need one OT to start(I'm not arguing that point) and we already have 2 on the roster for depth.

So, you feel we need to draft a LT for need, in other words?

It sounds like we only disagree on the whole depth issue, but agree that we've been backed into the 'drafting for need' corner as far as a starting LT.

 

[Zeno]

So, you feel we need to draft a LT for need, in other words?

It sounds like we only disagree on the whole depth issue, but agree that we've been backed into the 'drafting for need' corner as far as a starting LT.

Hell yes I agree with that. I absolutely don't agree with spending 2 high picks on OTs but because of a front office that doesn't think ahead we have no choice but to spend one of our first 2 picks on an OT (hope Thomas falls to us because Brown scares me and he is a reach at #5).

 

[JeffGollin]

[quote

Two quick questions Jeff.

Would you have matched the Cowboy offer or exceeded it for Davis?

Whom do you seriously think was available that would have been a differnece maker or a standout tackle...say that much better than Gandy if we sign him?

Do you think Brown has the ability (assuming we can't get Thomas) or Staley has the ability to exceed who was "truly" available. I don't believe Columbo was one we could have signed. Your thoughts please.

1. Probably not (too expensive) but we could have started negotiations earlier before things got to this point - possibly extending him for a year or two. I also detect some other negative baggage that perhaps could have been aired-out and resolved (for example; the unhappiness by LD and other Cardinals about previous off season weight training and conditioning pgm). There was also the option of tagging him (Just wondering but even if we transitioned him instead of franchising him, we presumbably would have gotten at least one draft pick in return).

We also could have placed a higher priority a year ago on signing a FA tackle capable of starting - someone better than Gorin or Lewienski turned out to be (No doubt that was our goal in signing each of them but, to this date, they haven't lived up to expectations and could be considered errors in talent evaluation judgment). Sound strategy by,Rod, Dennis and Loney. But not so hot an outcome, and it has contributed to our current predicament.
'
2. This FA period, there were a couple of FA's out there (who no doubt were not as good as Leonard but at least serviceable) we could have overspent a little for - if only to buy some time and get us over the hump for one more year. Luke Petigout is one name that comes to mind.

3. (You get a free question). Brown is considered to have a higher "ceiling" but a lower "floor" than Thomas. He has longer arms. He's considered by some to be a better run blocker. Some say he has a bigger upside than Thomas. But Thomas is considered safer and more "ready." And Brown's motor is considered more iffy.

In terms of overall value, the CW has Thomas rated #2 BPA and Brown around #7 - #9.

A case could be made that - should Thomas be drafted before #5 - the Cards could take Brown there and not lose too much in the way of value; and that they shouldn't screw around - just take him.

Another school of thought says that - if you don't really like any players at, say #5, but feel Brown would be a solid value at #7 - #9, you trade down for an extra pick or two. The danger in doing that is that some other team might jump ahead of you to grab Brown.

(Note - the way trade-down scenarios work best is if you have 4 or 5 players you rate equally so that you could trade down 4 or 5 spots and be guaranteed you'd get one of them. Because the Cards presumably would only be targeting Brown, they'd be taking a calculated risk of losing him if they traded down more than one rung).

Then there's Staley - very athletic but raw. Probably the best feet (suitable for pass blocking) and great size. Possibly the most long range potential of any tackle (But you know what they say about potential). For a while, it looked as though he might fly below the radar into the mid - late second round. Now many mocks having him going in the first round (possibly in the high to mid 20's).

Presumably, the Cards could trade down with a team desperate to grab Quinn or Peterson and grab Staley with the later 1st round pick - in the hope they could recoup by stealing an extra quality player in the second round (For example - not that I believe it's gonna happen, but Scouts Inc. projects the following players to be second round value: Posluszny, Spencer, Blalock, Woodley, Macauley, M Griffin, Houston. They also rate Staley #33).

Finally, the main point of my thread wasn't to point fingers but to lay out the consequences of our front office's action (or inaction). I think we will be forced to move away from BPA and toward need in this draft. Taking the long range view, we should never have let ourselves get into that predicament.

 

[kerouac9]

Jeff, does Levi Brown really have longer arms than Thomas? According to Scouts, Inc, Thomas is over an inch taller than Brown. Does Thomas have t-rex arms or something?

It's a weird statement to make, since Thomas is by far the better pass blocker, which requires longer arms than the run-blocker that Brown happens to maybe slightly exceed Thomas as. The one thing that scares me is that Brown "suddenly" jumped out at the Senior Bowl, when the real money was at stake. Funny how that happens with a lot of these underachieving prospects (like Gabe Watson last season).

 

[Duckjake]

The one thing that scares me is that Brown "suddenly" jumped out at the Senior Bowl, when the real money was at stake. Funny how that happens with a lot of these underachieving prospects (like Gabe Watson last season).

It seems natural that these guys are motivated far more by a couple of million being at stake than things like having a guy co-sign for a Dodge Charger.

 

[kerouac9]

It seems natural that these guys are motivated far more by a couple of million being at stake than things like having a guy co-sign for a Dodge Charger.

Natural, but don't we want a guy who takes pride in his accomplishments when no one's watching, or when he knows that the scouts might not be watching as hard? That's one thing that jumped out at me about Joe Thomas (about whom I'm still very suspicious): he takes pride in taking care of his man down after down after down. There's no question about inconsistent effort with that guy.

 

[lobo]

Jeff, does Levi Brown really have longer arms than Thomas? According to Scouts, Inc, Thomas is over an inch taller than Brown. Does Thomas have t-rex arms or something?

It's a weird statement to make, since Thomas is by far the better pass blocker, which requires longer arms than the run-blocker that Brown happens to maybe slightly exceed Thomas as. The one thing that scares me is that Brown "suddenly" jumped out at the Senior Bowl, when the real money was at stake. Funny how that happens with a lot of these underachieving prospects (like Gabe Watson last season).

There is something nice about "short term" contracts for the teams. Kip Wells of the Cardinals took a one year deal (baseball). I give him credit. If he has a good year under the tutalage of Dave Duncan, he will make a load over the following 3+ years. Same with some of the running backs who signed for a year.

 

[Duckjake]

Natural, but don't we want a guy who takes pride in his accomplishments when no one's watching, or when he knows that the scouts might not be watching as hard? That's one thing that jumped out at me about Joe Thomas (about whom I'm still very suspicious): he takes pride in taking care of his man down after down after down. There's no question about inconsistent effort with that guy.

Right on that. We've had too many guys who play lights out for awhile and then play like the lights went out. Inconsistency has been a Cardinal staple, especially on the offensive line, for years.