Thoughts on The Cardinals' Missing Roster Pieces

Duckjake

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Smells like trade bait to me.Hope he can still spell GYM.What a friggin waste.Others in his same position have'nt responded the same way.Real Shame since he said the CARDINALS have always been his favorite team.

Everyone is expendable and replaceable.Why does'nt a smart kid like Duece realize that?GOD Bless Him.He's gonna get his payday soon enough if he stays in shape.What competition he could bring to camp this year.Man would I love to see Russ challenge those guys.

Our new starting five WILL be an improvement.Talk about tested and aware of what the system is about.Whiz loves to pull his lineman.Even the center.We just have'nt done it much.A real fullback would match up well with this bunch.Can't wait to see the new holes we have'nt seen for a couple years open up for Beanie & Timmy to hit their second + more gears in and out of.Not finesse anymore.

Not really. See the number of #1 draft picks that played for years for the Colts. They keep their guys and win 12 games a year. The Cards for years didn't keep their guys and lost 12 games a year. It was only when Arizona started keeping guys around that they started to win.

I'm sorry that I'm keeping the darkside alive but I just don't see the huge change in the makeup of the team being a positive like everyone else seems to.
 

kerouac9

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Not really. See the number of #1 draft picks that played for years for the Colts. They keep their guys and win 12 games a year. The Cards for years didn't keep their guys and lost 12 games a year. It was only when Arizona started keeping guys around that they started to win.

I'm sorry that I'm keeping the darkside alive but I just don't see the huge change in the makeup of the team being a positive like everyone else seems to.

For what it's worth, I'm nervous, but not worried. Two years of winning has earned the current regime (even Rod Graves) the benefit of the doubt. I think that Paris Lenon sucks. I don't think that Kerry Rhodes is the massive upgrade that many here do (when was the last time a team so overestimated the potential of a Cardinal free agent? The guys who leave for big deals generally work out for the teams they go do. David Boston was an exception--although he was the leading WR for a dreadful San Diego team), but I don't think that he's going to be a huge dropoff, either. I'm nervous about the OL changes.

But this team was not geared for long-term success. If they'd kept this group in place, they might have won another 10 games (even with Leinart as the starter) and made the playoffs, but they'd be going into the 2011 lockout with Leinart in the air (and coming off a playoff appearance), as well as Deuce and others needing new deals.

Now the Cards clear salary space, and they'll probably win between 7 and 9 games and Whis'll be able to make a decision on Leinart without the pressure of keeping a playoff team together.

I think the difference is that with this group there seems to be a clear plan in place. With Denny and Mac, it just seemed to be this effort to get the best/cheapest 53 guys on the field every year, and hope that something could be cobbled together to keep 'em competitive.

If Fitz, Breaston, and/or Dockett don't get new deals before Christmas, and the team doesn't put together a record that competes for the division (4-2 in division), then the Darkside is going to be very strong on this board, indeed.

But this is a transition season.
 

Doug

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Not really. See the number of #1 draft picks that played for years for the Colts. They keep their guys and win 12 games a year. The Cards for years didn't keep their guys and lost 12 games a year. It was only when Arizona started keeping guys around that they started to win.

I'm sorry that I'm keeping the darkside alive but I just don't see the huge change in the makeup of the team being a positive like everyone else seems to.


Don't be sorry for any way you feel. You've earned the right to doubt and not fall for any regime till they win 6-7 NFC WEST Titles in a row and a Lombardi and prove they can build from within and survive and even prosper on maybe spending less than other teams and letting star players go and excel on other teams,while filling their spots with later round draft picks found by a great researching scouting crew and great conditioning and coaches that keep filling the gaps.

Then this same regime brings in what looks like old tired retreads and squeezes the last bit of talent out of them as they use the vets to help bring up the new pups to fill their jobs.

I never thought I'd see Edge play in a SuperBowl once he left the Colts and they Finally won one after all the years of multiple 10+ win seasons with no playoff success.Yet we did see Edge help timmy grow up faster than normal and THT gave his first game ball to Edge.I'm glad he is finally gone but even he filled a spot that we now are getting better vets to help bring up our rookies.

Whiz has'nt truly fallen on his face even though he has called some bad games once Haley left him without a trusted play caller.He took a flier on our LB coach to bring real heat and passion to our Defense and one year was'nt a total failure as we still won the division and a home playoff game and a couple primetime games with the Giants,Vikings and Packers that made us all proud for a day at least ...Maybe.I won't mention the colts,Saints ans Whiners games we had to suffer through.

I know you are a wise man and even though your glass may be half full, you still can see a semblance of a plan in most of the things done.Whether the folks you may have wanted are'nt the ones that end up here.We're having more success with our own draft picks and are building more from the inside with players we've developed to replace top draft picks.Its the only way to win consistantly in the NFL.Its also a beautifull thing to watch when things come together.Injuries of course upset the plans and changes are made but I think the CARDINALS have the best coach since Coryell if not even better when it comes to the TOTAL package.

I'm positive by nature.Yet I don't think i wear rose colored glasses.Whiz has'nt hit on every pick by a longshot but I also see a different type player coaches have to deal with and they don't all try to bring in the right mixture for a good lockeroom.I think Whiz is even trying to do that as best he can with Graves to work with,give the man some credit.I don't think Matt is gonna be the failure all the talking heads think will be.Nor do I think he'll be as accurate as Kurt was but we'll find what he does best and hone those skills and run our offense to his strengths.

We've got plenty of time to Get Er' Done.:)
 

kerouac9

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K9, Rhodes was acquired via trade. He wasn't a FA, so you might want to re-think your opinion on his acquisition.

Do you really think that I don't follow the team, Stout? Really? Me?

I was meaning the people here who say that Antrel Rolle wasn't a good safety, that he's easily replaceable with some other team's garbage (and that's really what Kerry Rhodes was). It won't be long now until people are comparing Rolle to Eric Green and/or Terrance Holt.

Do I think that Rolle deserved his Pro Bowl berth? Of course not. But, sadly, I trust other teams' estimations of our free agents more than I trust ours. That's what happens when your front office signs a bunch of Coyote Uglies. Even many of our own players that we keep end up being more like Anthony Clement or a real average player like Gerald Hayes or Reggie Wells. Fitz and Dockett are the exceptions that highlight the trend.

Look at some of the guys that the team allowed to walk away because "they became more expensive than they were worth." Think the team wouldn't be happy to pay Calvin Pace the money he got in New York? Simeon Rice should've been Super Bowl MVP. Leonard Davis just went to his third Pro Bowl. Renaldo Hill(!) started 15 games last season. Rod Hood had 3 interceptions in 9 games for the Titans last season.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that the guys that we left were scrubs or were overpaid when we said the same thing when the last guy left, and the guy before that, and all that happened to them was that they became even better once they were gone than when they were here.
 

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Do you really think that I don't follow the team, Stout? Really? Me?

I was meaning the people here who say that Antrel Rolle wasn't a good safety, that he's easily replaceable with some other team's garbage (and that's really what Kerry Rhodes was). It won't be long now until people are comparing Rolle to Eric Green and/or Terrance Holt.

Do I think that Rolle deserved his Pro Bowl berth? Of course not. But, sadly, I trust other teams' estimations of our free agents more than I trust ours. That's what happens when your front office signs a bunch of Coyote Uglies. Even many of our own players that we keep end up being more like Anthony Clement or a real average player like Gerald Hayes or Reggie Wells. Fitz and Dockett are the exceptions that highlight the trend.

Look at some of the guys that the team allowed to walk away because "they became more expensive than they were worth." Think the team wouldn't be happy to pay Calvin Pace the money he got in New York? Simeon Rice should've been Super Bowl MVP. Leonard Davis just went to his third Pro Bowl. Renaldo Hill(!) started 15 games last season. Rod Hood had 3 interceptions in 9 games for the Titans last season.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that the guys that we left were scrubs or were overpaid when we said the same thing when the last guy left, and the guy before that, and all that happened to them was that they became even better once they were gone than when they were here.

To call him other teams garbage after one down year is nonsense. Remember Randy Moss, anyone? Other teams garbage worked out extremely well for the Patriots.

Read this, please.

http://www.thejetsblog.com/2010/03/08/jets-letting-kerry-rhodes-roam-one-last-time/

This sheds a lot of light on Rhodes' situation with the Jets last season.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Not really. See the number of #1 draft picks that played for years for the Colts. They keep their guys and win 12 games a year. The Cards for years didn't keep their guys and lost 12 games a year. It was only when Arizona started keeping guys around that they started to win.

I'm sorry that I'm keeping the darkside alive but I just don't see the huge change in the makeup of the team being a positive like everyone else seems to.

Are we talking now or in the past ?

Cause the Colts let players go all the time, and keep a core of guys they want around.

Linebackers, Cornerbacks, and defensive tackles ? They go through those positions like it is nothing. Always a good turnover on the Colts defense, it is that Bill Polian does a fantastic job of stocking his shelves.

Not to mention Peyton Manning might have a little to do with the Colts success. The fact that they can pull WR's off the street and have success says something as well.

As for who the Cardinals sign and who the don't, I still wait to hear better suggestion on how some of these players are supposed to be kept around. A guy like Dansby was worked on for 2-3 years. I think it was obvious that Dansby wanted out.

The Boldin situation hurt this team. No doubt. The string of malcontents on the Cardinals, when it come strictly to business cause the team plays hard once it is all about the game, amazes me. Lutui, Watson, Boldin, Dansby, Rolle, and Dockett all wanted/want big money, and many times had little blurbs and snippets about the doubt they all had that they would ever see the money from the Cardinals. Not even the re-signing of Adrian Wilson helps ease that thought pattern, and the Cardinals, BEFORE they had "the plan", even shot themselves in the foot by re-doing Dockett's and Boldin's contracts too early in regards to their rookie contracts, and while the Cardinals were content with the extensions, as little as, two to three years later both wanted ANOTHER new contract which is outside of the norm anywhere in the NFL.

The point being is that there is a small faction that cannot seem to buy into how Adrian Wilson go his money, and seem to believe in the fact that Boldin was victimized by a cheap organization.

But let's give the Cardinals a modicum of slack here. They have made the effort to sign Boldin, Dansby, and even Rolle. It makes it hard when the pre-determination is that they want to get there money somewhere else. It makes it harder when those same individuals don't buy into what is going on in AZ, because why else would you leave AZ when the Cardinals match offers, and try to give fair contracts.

This is the main reason I see Lutui not signing his tender. He seems like he doubts he will make the money here, and with all the competition in camp his chances are worse, and worse. Thus force the hand this year, and see if you can get your big money some where else. And while many will disagree, I don't see where Lutui has shown that he is this elite guard that deserves big time money. It seems that Lutui, and some others feel that just being on the field during a successful time is worth huge money, regardless of the significance of their role in that success. Not to mention while it seems to be OK for players to strong arm the Cardinals for big money and rake them over coal in the name of "it's business" yet it is wrong for the Cardinals to bring in other players to challenge for a job that they deem a person at a lesser salary can do ? Dansby was irreplacable, and the Cardinals chased after him as expected. But a guy like Antonio Smith (yet another player whom was all of a sudden dubbed, injustifiably IMO, as this NFL superstar once he was a free agent) was in fact VERY replaceable. I thought the Cardinals plan of getting a replacement like Calias Campbell was great. They got better talent for way less money. I forget the ridiculous number Antonio Smith was given in free agency but to say the Cardinals would be better off with Smith at a high salary, then having Calias Campbell at his current salary is crazy.

You have defenders claiming to have earned big money, while being part of a porous defense that has cost this organization playoff wins, and a Super Bowl trophy.

You have run blocking offensive linemen claiming to have earned big money when the organization has had one successful year running the ball in the last 10.

Seriously, up until 2008 if you went on this board, and said ANYBODY was good you would get jumped, beaten down, and shown to you face that our team lacked talent. That our team didn't have the players needed to contend.

Yet two years later they are indispensable guys that the Cardinals can not afford to lose ? Well, what is it ? It the talent here or is it not ?

Is Rolle REALLY worth paying the highest safety salary in the NFL ?

Is Calvin Pace REALLY worth paying 22 million dollars instead of trying to keep the passing attack that we enjoyed over the last 2 years intact ?

I will be interested to see the reaction of when Alan Branch is left to go about his own business next year. I will be interested in the declared value of a back up DE, bust of a NT will be worth all of a sudden.

I don't even write all this to defend the Cardinals front office. I only write it to really ask the question of how all these player that no less the two years ago weren't NFL quality are now key stones of this team, and are suddenly worth paying salaries equivalent to top NFL, elite talent.

Are we really being fair about the perceived value of the players on this roster ? Or are we just playing the old game of: Every one we lose is an NFL superstar, and every one we bring in is a NFL scrub.
 
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RugbyMuffin

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Do I think that Rolle deserved his Pro Bowl berth? Of course not.

Then how do you justify paying him the highest salary for any safety in the league ?

And screw the league, how do you justify making him the highest safety on our roster ?
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Then how do you justify paying him the highest salary for any safety in the league ?

And screw the league, how do you justify making him the highest safety on our roster ?
I agree with K9's post 100% even though i was all for letting Pace go. Also, according to the reports, the Cards came in with a late offer that would have paid Rolle similar to the Giants.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Do you really think that I don't follow the team, Stout? Really? Me?

I was meaning the people here who say that Antrel Rolle wasn't a good safety, that he's easily replaceable with some other team's garbage (and that's really what Kerry Rhodes was). It won't be long now until people are comparing Rolle to Eric Green and/or Terrance Holt.

Do I think that Rolle deserved his Pro Bowl berth? Of course not. But, sadly, I trust other teams' estimations of our free agents more than I trust ours. That's what happens when your front office signs a bunch of Coyote Uglies. Even many of our own players that we keep end up being more like Anthony Clement or a real average player like Gerald Hayes or Reggie Wells. Fitz and Dockett are the exceptions that highlight the trend.

Look at some of the guys that the team allowed to walk away because "they became more expensive than they were worth." Think the team wouldn't be happy to pay Calvin Pace the money he got in New York? Simeon Rice should've been Super Bowl MVP. Leonard Davis just went to his third Pro Bowl. Renaldo Hill(!) started 15 games last season. Rod Hood had 3 interceptions in 9 games for the Titans last season.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that the guys that we left were scrubs or were overpaid when we said the same thing when the last guy left, and the guy before that, and all that happened to them was that they became even better once they were gone than when they were here.
That's why i used to compare the Cards to the Montreal Expos. THey would bring in some good players, develope them for 4-5 years, and then let them walk in free agency just when they were entering their prime. They kind of had gotten away from that but Rolle and KD brought back those memories this year.
 

kerouac9

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Stout

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Do you really think that I don't follow the team, Stout? Really? Me?

I was meaning the people here who say that Antrel Rolle wasn't a good safety, that he's easily replaceable with some other team's garbage (and that's really what Kerry Rhodes was). It won't be long now until people are comparing Rolle to Eric Green and/or Terrance Holt.

Do I think that Rolle deserved his Pro Bowl berth? Of course not. But, sadly, I trust other teams' estimations of our free agents more than I trust ours. That's what happens when your front office signs a bunch of Coyote Uglies. Even many of our own players that we keep end up being more like Anthony Clement or a real average player like Gerald Hayes or Reggie Wells. Fitz and Dockett are the exceptions that highlight the trend.

Look at some of the guys that the team allowed to walk away because "they became more expensive than they were worth." Think the team wouldn't be happy to pay Calvin Pace the money he got in New York? Simeon Rice should've been Super Bowl MVP. Leonard Davis just went to his third Pro Bowl. Renaldo Hill(!) started 15 games last season. Rod Hood had 3 interceptions in 9 games for the Titans last season.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that the guys that we left were scrubs or were overpaid when we said the same thing when the last guy left, and the guy before that, and all that happened to them was that they became even better once they were gone than when they were here.

Well, if you didn't just make a mistake, then I'd have to say you were trying to label him a FA for your own purposes, to make your own point better. Either you made a mistake or you did it on purpose, K9.

He wasn't a FA and he wasn't cut (Rhodes). The Jets received compensation in order to part with him, which says something about the player. He was an excellent safety, a pro-bowl safety, that didn't get on well with the new regime. That might make him too much of a diva, or it might mean he was just in a bad spot. What does make him better than Rolle is that he can actually cover, an area that Rolle struggled mightily in. Will Rolle eventually develop in that area? He may just, but he may not. Rolle isn't hot garbage, but he certainly isn't pro-bowl caliber--yes, I know he made it after a bunch of other guys didn't go, but he certainly didn't play like a pro-bowler this year.
 

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I agree with K9's post 100% even though i was all for letting Pace go. Also, according to the reports, the Cards came in with a late offer that would have paid Rolle similar to the Giants.

Agreed.

And Rolle still chose to go to NYG.

I think there is a distinct difference in the roster overhaul of 1998 and what happened this offseason.

There was an effort to hold onto guys in which there was no replacement for. The Cardinals tried to match Rolle's offer, and tried for 3 years to sign Dansby.

You match the NYG's offer to make Rolle the highest paid safety in the league, and he still goes with the new club ? How is that letting someone get away ?

But, I don't want to sit here and play devil's advocate. There is reason for concern.

I want to say that the loss of Dansby, regardless of effort and unavoidable circumstance, is very worrisome. I will really start to worry if Dockett ends up leaving, and when it comes time to deal with Calias Campbell or Beanie Wells, etc., etc. there better be some "core" player still around after we sift through the extensions, or re-negotiations of these players.

I have said it before. I can deal with the loss of Rolle, and really don't care about that situation. But losing Dansby is huge. He was a core player, and by him not being a Cardinal next year is NOT part of the "plan" that we are told about all the time. Couple that with my conspiracy theory that while talents, this roster doesn't believe in the front office (The Q Effect) it can really cause some big problems down the line.
 
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Duckjake

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Not to mention Peyton Manning might have a little to do with the Colts success. The fact that they can pull WR's off the street and have success says something as well.

Rugby, that just helps my point that not "everybody" is expendable and replaceable. Which is what I was talking about.

EDIT: I am not knocking the current Cards just saying that continuity breeds success in the NFL. The Cards are also an example of this. For years they had constant turnover of personnel and lost. Then they stopped that and started to win. Just look at the rosters from 2008 and 2009 and see how many players had been with the team for 4,5,6 seasons. AWilson, Warner, Berry, Okeafor, Boldin, Hayes, RWells, Fitz, Dansby, Dockett and Rolle.

As an aside on the Colts WRs either Reggie Wayne or Marvin Harrison has been their leading WR every season but one for 14 years.
 
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kerouac9

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Well, if you didn't just make a mistake, then I'd have to say you were trying to label him a FA for your own purposes, to make your own point better. Either you made a mistake or you did it on purpose, K9.

He wasn't a FA and he wasn't cut (Rhodes). The Jets received compensation in order to part with him, which says something about the player. He was an excellent safety, a pro-bowl safety, that didn't get on well with the new regime. That might make him too much of a diva, or it might mean he was just in a bad spot. What does make him better than Rolle is that he can actually cover, an area that Rolle struggled mightily in. Will Rolle eventually develop in that area? He may just, but he may not. Rolle isn't hot garbage, but he certainly isn't pro-bowl caliber--yes, I know he made it after a bunch of other guys didn't go, but he certainly didn't play like a pro-bowler this year.

Where did I say that Rhodes was a FA? Was Alex Barron any less the Rams' garbage because he was traded? Was Bobby Carpenter any less the Cowboys' garbage because he was traded?

I think the difference between Rhodes for a fourth- and 2011 seventh-round pick and the Redskins and Broncos swapping Champ Bailey and Clinton Portis is pretty self-evident. Maybe Warner is right and this is like the steal that the Pats got for Randy Moss three years ago, but do you really trust this front office to make that kind of savvy decision?

Read my OP again:

I think that Paris Lenon sucks. I don't think that Kerry Rhodes is the massive upgrade that many here do (when was the last time a team so overestimated the potential of a Cardinal free agent? The guys who leave for big deals generally work out for the teams they go do. David Boston was an exception--although he was the leading WR for a dreadful San Diego team), but I don't think that he's going to be a huge dropoff, either.

It's pretty obvious that I was talking about Cardinal free agents leaving, not the free agents that the team has brought in.

Rugby: I can't really justify making Antel Rolle the highest-paid safety in the NFL (For a year--that's always how this works out. Dansby was the highest-paid ILB for a month and a half), but the New York Giants could. They won the Super Bowl three years ago. I'm not really going to doubt their personnel strategy.

The sad fact is that for some reason other teams around the NFL have done a better job of valuing the Arizona Cardinals' roster than we have. If players can't wait to leave for free agent dollars, isn't some of the responsibility on the front office for not recruiting their players and creating that environment that guys want to stay in?
 

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Seriously, up until 2008 if you went on this board, and said ANYBODY was good you would get jumped, beaten down, and shown to you face that our team lacked talent. That our team didn't have the players needed to contend.

Those detractors would have been wrong. Many of the key players in the Cards 2008 Super Bowl run were on the team in 2006.

Warner, EJames, Boldin, Fitz, LPope, RWells, Latui, Okeafor, Watson, Dockett, Berry, ASmith, Dansby, Hayes, Wilson and Rolle.

What they didn't have was coaching talent.
 
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JeffGollin

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Take a step back and breathe deeply...

What we were dealing with -

1. A team that made the playoffs twice.

2. Some players who -based on this - felt they were worth more than they were being paid.

3. A fixed team budget/cap limits

4. A front office that felt that these players either (a) weren't worth as much as they felt they were, (b) were worth that much but couldn't be afforded, given other budget priorities or (c) weren't sure whether the players were worth that much and were amenable to testing it on the open market.

In short, the standard NFL salary phenominon of trying to jam 2 pounds of you-know-what into a one pound bag. Every successful team faces this year in and year out, and different teams deal with it differently.

Note - It's legitimate to ask: "Why do some teams seem to "creatively" accumulate and retain expensive players while the Cardinals are more inclined to let their expensive players go when it comes to crunch time?"

A partial answer might come in the form of "Observe the Redskins under Dan Snyder - they spend a ton and make a lot of high-profile moves, but they seldom win anything."

Regarding Rolle (& for that matter other players) - some people on this board tend to take extreme positions (i.e "he sucked!" or "we gave up a Pro Bowl player!"). My take on Rolle was that (1) he was a high #1 draft pick slated to be our first great CB since Aeneas, (2) he didn't work out as well as expected at corner, so they moved him to safety, (3) he proved to be especially valuable in a slot/nickel safety role, showing near-Superhuman ability in the open field after picking off a pass but (4) was prone to taking wrong angles, allowing plays to get behind him and other stuff safeties aren't supposed to do. We lose Rolle's playmaking capability, but we also jettison a few of the bad things.

There is also the tendency to compare a new guy heads-up with the old guy. Rhodes is not the playmaker Rolle was, and he may not be as physical. But he's said to play his position smarter while having as much straight-ahead speed. So we lose an erratic playmaker with a greater upside and gain a less spectacular guy equally or more likely to give us what we need within our defensive team concept.

I think we should view the entire roster in a similar manner

- We lost Boldin but we were blessed by an overabundance of riches and 2/3 of our receiving big-3 is intact & Doucet backed up by Roberts should pick up the slack.

- We lost some pass-rush juice from the outside provided by B-Train and Chike (both of whom were in & out a lot anyway due to nagging injuries) but get a big part of that back in the form of Joey Porter and will have to hope that Cody Brown comes back and meets expectations.

- In Dansby, we lose a big guy who could make big plays at the weak inside LB slot. Replacements include (a) Lenon (of whom it can be asked - "at a position that allows outstanding players to make big plays; if Lenon were that good, why didn't he wow anyone and why did a last place team let him go?") and (b) a rookie 2nd round pick who only weighs in the high 230's and, although he may bring a different skill-set from Dansby, will remain an unknown entity til he proves otherwise. i.e. "a great unknown."

- We lost Gandy and may lose Lutui, but we gain Faneca and Hadnot. Deuce appears to fall into the category of feeling he's worth more than the Cardinal coaches feel he was worth. (At the very least, adding Faneca and Hadnot have to weaken Deuce's bargaining leverage). With a reconfigured O-line featuring the flipflop of Levi to LT with Keith to RT, Faneca at LG and either Wells or Hadnot at RG, we should be able to run the ball better and more physically.

- The toughest trade-off comes at QB because Kurt Warner had a unique set of special kills that only a couple of other NFL QB's possessed. To expect his replacement - whether it was to be Leinart, Anderson, McNabb or anyone else - to fill those shoes in an identical manner would be unrealistic. But what might be more realistic would be to check out the unique things that Matt and Derek can do well and capitalize on those.

Bottom line - Unlike last year's team (which could be defined and evaluated in terms of incremental changes made from the previous Super Bowl team), the 2010 Cardinals figure to be quite different from last year's team both in personnel and style of play. As someone who loves consistency, this makes me very uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean that this newly configured Cardinal team won't be as successful as the previous version.
 
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RugbyMuffin

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The sad fact is that for some reason other teams around the NFL have done a better job of valuing the Arizona Cardinals' roster than we have.

I think that is more assumption than fact.

You assume that the Cardinals are un-valuing their players.

I assume that those other teams are over-valuing these same players.

I would say that in a year or so we would know who is right, but success is very relative.

I don't think Pace or Antonio Smith have played up to the money given to them in free agency, but it is pure opinion.

What will Rolle produce in NYG ? Who knows. If he plays like he did here in AZ they will burn him at the stake, regardless if it is justified. The big money contract and high expectations in NY because of that money is going to expect Ed Reed type production. I don't think Rolle has that type of skill, but we will see.

Dansby, I am sure, will make a great impact in Miami. :(

If players can't wait to leave for free agent dollars, isn't some of the responsibility on the front office for not recruiting their players and creating that environment that guys want to stay in?

Without a doubt there is a responsibility for the front office to "stick to the plan." This offseason they were not able to do so by letting Dansby walk. But, a LITTLE credit where it is due. They tried for 3 years to sign the guy, and still paid him a HUGE salary under the franchise tag. The will, and the want was there to sign Dansby, but I think it was very apparent that Dansby wanted to go somewhere else.

After that I don't know what to say. If you want to be black/white about the situation. The Cardinals have not gotten the job done with Dansby, and Boldin. Those are two players that I would put under the "core" of the team that have been lost. Both have had open and public doubts about the ability of the front office to spend money, but in one case there was already an extension to a contract given and some poor demands on both side of the table, and in the other case the effort, time and money was put on the table and rejected.

Yet no credit due to the front office for re-signing Adrian Wilson. Yet no credit due to the front office for at least trying to fill needs, and create depth with more action in an offseason than we have seen in a long time.

Of course creating the enviroment you speak of is a very big part of the situation. But at what price, and at what level of waffling under the pressure to be perceived a certain way ?

Do you make Rolle the highest paid safety in the league ?

Do you extend Lutui to a contract that he really doesn't deserve, all while having Faneca, Johnson, Keith, Wells, and Hadnot on the roster ?

Do you extend Dockett even though it would go against the new found Cardinal mantra of not redoing deals until the last year of a contract ? By doing so would you not question why this was not done with Boldin ? By waiting are we not setting things up for what seems to be the re-occuring problem of players bolting for free agency and really more than anything just using the Cardinals as leverage in negotiations ?

I will tell you this. It is not the "cheapness" that has had me worried about the Cardinals and there ability to sign guys. It is this re-occurring phenomenon that even when the Cardinals match an offer, and/or offer something extremely close to an offer that another team makes and the player chooses to leave AZ.

I don't know how they are going to fix that problem. The team offers the same money, the same contract, and the player leaves anyway. Then the players still in the locker stay thinking the Cardinals will not pay out even after paying Wilson, Fitz and Warner. How is that fair or fixable ?
 
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Redheart

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What we were dealing with -

....

Nice write-up Jeff.

Good thread too, Mitch. It is pleasing to read some of old die-hard posters during these slooow months of the year.

I hope the changes we have made can let us beat the 'niners this year; I think that will be figure importantly in our ability to get back to the play-offs and give ourselves another bite at the apple...
 

Chopper0080

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I think that is more assumption than fact.

You assume that the Cardinals are un-valuing their players.

I assume that those other teams are over-valuing these same players.

I would say that in a year or so we would know who is right, but success is very relative.

I don't think Pace or Antonio Smith have played up to the money given to them in free agency, but it is pure opinion.

What will Rolle produce in NYG ? Who knows. If he plays like he did here in AZ they will burn him at the stake, regardless if it is justified. The big money contract and high expectations in NY because of that money is going to expect Ed Reed type production. I don't think Rolle has that type of skill, but we will see.

Dansby, I am sure, will make a great impact in Miami. :(



Without a doubt there is a responsibility for the front office to "stick to the plan." This offseason they were not able to do so by letting Dansby walk. But, a LITTLE credit where it is due. They tried for 3 years to sign the guy, and still paid him a HUGE salary under the franchise tag. The will, and the want was there to sign Dansby, but I think it was very apparent that Dansby wanted to go somewhere else.

After that I don't know what to say. If you want to be black/white about the situation. The Cardinals have not gotten the job done with Dansby, and Boldin. Those are two players that I would put under the "core" of the team that have been lost. Both have had open and public doubts about the ability of the front office to spend money, but in one case there was already an extension to a contract given and some poor demands on both side of the table, and in the other case the effort, time and money was put on the table and rejected.

Yet no credit due to the front office for re-signing Adrian Wilson. Yet no credit due to the front office for at least trying to fill needs, and create depth with more action in an offseason than we have seen in a long time.

Of course creating the enviroment you speak of is a very big part of the situation. But at what price, and at what level of waffling under the pressure to be perceived a certain way ?

Do you make Rolle the highest paid safety in the league ?

Do you extend Lutui to a contract that he really doesn't deserve, all while having Faneca, Johnson, Keith, Wells, and Hadnot on the roster ?

Do you extend Dockett even though it would go against the new found Cardinal mantra of not redoing deals until the last year of a contract ? By doing so would you not question why this was not done with Boldin ? By waiting are we not setting things up for what seems to be the re-occuring problem of players bolting for free agency and really more than anything just using the Cardinals as leverage in negotiations ?

I will tell you this. It is not the "cheapness" that has had me worried about the Cardinals and there ability to sign guys. It is this re-occurring phenomenon that even when the Cardinals match an offer, and/or offer something extremely close to an offer that another team makes and the player chooses to leave AZ.

I don't know how they are going to fix that problem. The team offers the same money, the same contract, and the player leaves anyway. Then the players still in the locker stay thinking the Cardinals will not pay out. How is that fair or fixable ?

This is what worries me. Say what you want about pro athletes, but in the end they want to feel valued, they want to get paid, and they are overly sensitive about both. Kurt Warner, Anquan Boldin, Karlos Dansby, Antrell Rolle, and Leonard Davis all have shown these characteristics.

If Kurt wasn't 38 when he was visiting the 49ers, he would have signed elsewhere. Rod Graves decided to rake Warner over the negotiating coals because he knew that Warner had very little negotiating leverage. Graves had that leverage, but I don't think that it sent a favorable message across the roster when he slapped Warner in the face with it. Not to mention that Graves waffled in the end like he is prone to do. So after the Warner negotiations, the Cardinals look cheap for haggling and Warner still gets the dollars he wants.

Same goes for Dansby. Dansby's toughness is questioned, legitimately, but he gets a fresh start with a new staff. Dansby goes out and produces on the field, and watches an inferior player in Pace receive a better contract in FA. Still, Dansby doesn't make waves and plays. What do the Cardinals do when they can lock a better player in Dansby up long term for Calvin Pace money? They wait. They wait until Dansby doesn't feel valued in Arizona, and is wooed to South Florida where he takes a similar contract because he feels wanted. Again, the Cardinals look cheap because Graves caved on the dollars that Dansby wanted, but it was so late that he left anyway.

Antrell Rolle is a similar case. Rolle was drafted to be a lock down corner which he never developed into. He was given the opportunity to make a transition to a position that he seemed better suited for. After a first year of mixed success, the Cardinals could offer to restructure Rolle's contract to reflect a safeties salary, but toss in some bonus money to make it attractive to Rolle as well. Instead, Graves waits. In 2008, Rolle shows development, and is again an attractive player to restructure because of his bonus after the 2009 season. Instead of extending a long term extension to Rolle again when he still has negotiating leverage, Graves waits. So what happens in 2009. Rolle is selected to the Pro Bowl, and is due around 11 million dollars. Now Rolle has all the negotiating leverage, and is ready to get the big money. Graves comes in at the last minute with a similar deal that the Giants offer, only to get turned down because we failed to commit to Rolle until the last minute. So once again, the Cardinals look like idiots by caving last minute and offering Rolle the big contract that he wanted, only to have Rolle leave.

The theme here is pretty evident. Rod Graves likes to play hard ball in negotiations, and it rubs players the wrong way. The saddest part of it is that, unlike AJ Smith with the Chargers, he doesn't stick to his guns, and ends up caving in the end only to have the player laugh in his face. I see the same trend with Dockett, and Breaston. Both are being underpaid, and are heading into free agency next year. Both have decided to shut up, and play. But neither are being offered the long term deal that they should have been offered already. Graves looks like he is going to continue to dicker on the cost until both Dockett and Breaston have given up, and decide to go elsewhere in the offseason.

It seems Graves has failed to acknowledge the time old negotiating philosophy that the Godfather perfected. If you want to get a deal done, "make him an offer he can't refuse."
 

joeshmo

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The team offers the same money, the same contract, and the player leaves anyway.

Same money, yes, but same contract, no. Sure the total value of the contracts were the same but we were far off in total money paid out in the first 1,2,3 years of the deal in comparison to NYG and MIA. Our guaranteed money offered and 1st 3 years of the contract total was about 25% less then what they eventual got.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Same money, yes, but same contract, no. Sure the total value of the contracts were the same but we were far off in total money paid out in the first 1,2,3 years of the deal in comparison to NYG and MIA. Our guaranteed money offered and 1st 3 years of the contract total was about 25% less then what they eventual got.

This is why you da man.

Thanks for the info.

And the 1st three years are the ones that count.
 

82CardsGrad

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Same money, yes, but same contract, no. Sure the total value of the contracts were the same but we were far off in total money paid out in the first 1,2,3 years of the deal in comparison to NYG and MIA. Our guaranteed money offered and 1st 3 years of the contract total was about 25% less then what they eventual got.

This is of course true, and it's also true that hindsight is always laser-perfect 20/20... However, when I look back over the last 3 years or so, who have the Cards lost that anyone can say had we not lost him/them, we'd have our championship? Granted, this upcoming year might be different given that we lost true studs like Q and Dansby... we'll have to see how those losses really impact the team. But up to this point, have the Cards suffered greatly for not being able to re-sign players?? Seems to me they are doing a tremendous job in filling holes via draft and FA.
 

joeshmo

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This is why you da man.

Thanks for the info.

And the 1st three years are the ones that count.

Dont get me wrong though, it still wasn't a cheap move. The offers were still so good that it gave each player and their agents pause. Its why each player and players still on the team have all stated they appreciated how hard they tried to keep both players. Players didn't see it as a cheap tactic and they have said as much. I think its part of the reason why Dockett has sort of quieted down a little bit, he see's a change.

I actually love how this offseason went. This is the most aggressive we have ever seen then by a large margin. 6 trades in total I think, we haven't done that in the last decade combined.

Here is where the water meets the road this year for me. What are we going to do with extensions this year? That is the only thing that I worry may not go right, but I wont ring my hands until it happens or doesn't happen.
 
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