Thoughts on The Cardinals' Missing Roster Pieces

[CardLogic]

:gambo:

That's the truth, Gambo is always mixing metaphors.

 

[kerouac9]

This is of course true, and it's also true that hindsight is always laser-perfect 20/20... However, when I look back over the last 3 years or so, who have the Cards lost that anyone can say had we not lost him/them, we'd have our championship? Granted, this upcoming year might be different given that we lost true studs like Q and Dansby... we'll have to see how those losses really impact the team. But up to this point, have the Cards suffered greatly for not being able to re-sign players?? Seems to me they are doing a tremendous job in filling holes via draft and FA.

I think that with Calvin Pace instead of Chike Okeafor in the Super Bowl, we probably would have won.

The gap between the two players' production was that great. Pace: 80 tackles, 7 sacks, 5 forced fumbles. Okeafor: 60 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 1 FF, 1 INT.

I was glad to see Pace go. He was a black eye on the organization. But he was another example of a guy who has done very well for another team when the Cards couldn't wait for him to walk out the door.

For all the talk about Antonio Smith, he had 4.5 sacks and 34 tackles in 15 games. Campbell was without question a better player, but his contract averages $7.1 million per season and his cap charge was less than guys like DeWayne White (DET) and Corey Williams (CLE).

Antonio Smith's cap number was the same as Chike Okeafor's last year. Who was being overpaid, again?

I really don't care about Boldin leaving. That was a good deal. But I'm not sure how people can look at this team on paper and say, "Yeah, we're better now than we were at the end of last season."

Especially considering that teams have taken advantage of the Cards misunderestimation of their own talent for years: Simeon Rice, Kyle Vanden Bosch, Renaldo Hill, Corey Chavous, Calvin Pace. Shoot, we would have been better off giving that $10 million to Rod Hood instead of Bryant McFadden.

 

[CardLogic]

I think that with Calvin Pace instead of Chike Okeafor in the Super Bowl, we probably would have won.

I didn't know Pace could play in the secondary... The Cardinals put as much pressure on Rothlisberger as any team had that entire season. But, DRC made some mistakes, and Francisco's coverage was horrible in that game.

Especially considering that teams have taken advantage of the Cards misunderestimation of their own talent for years: Simeon Rice, Kyle Vanden Bosch, Renaldo Hill, Corey Chavous, Calvin Pace. Shoot, we would have been better off giving that $10 million to Rod Hood instead of Bryant McFadden.

Rice leaving wasn't about talent evaluation. He made himself toxic to the organization.
KVB - multiple serious injuries, the Titans took a low risk chance on him and it worked out.
Hill - Frankly, I don't remember the details.
Chavous - failed at corner, refused to switch to safety, Went else where and played safety.
Pace - Overpaid, at the time, by the Jets.
Hood - I agree!

 

[Doug]

Same money, yes, but same contract, no. Sure the total value of the contracts were the same but we were far off in total money paid out in the first 1,2,3 years of the deal in comparison to NYG and MIA. Our guaranteed money offered and 1st 3 years of the contract total was about 25% less then what they eventual got.

You also have to add the no tax system here in Florida that along with the weather and compare the outside life of Miami and surrounding area's to that of Glendale.Many things besides just contract money come into play.

New York offers so many more perks except for cramped no frills living,unless you plan on living there permanently.Advertising dollars and extra sources of income weigh in on the deal plus style of life for a guy from Miami that loves a different lifestyle.Plus the people you meet on a daily basis can change your life for good or bad.Rolle is young and fits N.Y. over Glendale.

Reggie White was a bold and outward Christian when he signed to move to Green Bay and its lifestyle.He was looking at team and community when he made his decision.

Rolle & Dansby would have to be offered more than what the Phins or Giants offered.More money and a (((MAJOR))) change in lifestyle.Vegas can be flown to as a place for short visits anytime.Waking up in a penthouse Ocean View or a Penthouse in N.Y. that never sleeps is another tough thing to compete with instead of always blaming Graves.

The Giants as always and Phins now with the Tuna are also trying to be competitive.

In my opinion it was a wise decision to go with youth over a contract Boldin would'nt have signed in AZ.Love our third round wide reciever who is gonna surprise everyone here.Breaston now has to show consistancy and health to get his #2 WR payday.

If DD isn't resigned than I just quit.Thats beyond stupid.

 

[LarryStalling]

If DD isn't resigned than I just quit.Thats beyond stupid.

Amen Brother!!! I second that thought.

 

[CardLogic]

If DD isn't resigned than I just quit.Thats beyond stupid.

You won't get much argument on that!

 

[WarnerHOF]

Comparing Randy Moss to Kerry Rhodes? LOL.

It wouldn't be so far fetched to say Rhodes was once the best free safety in the game. I wasn't comparing them on the talent level anyway.

 

[kerouac9]

It wouldn't be so far fetched to say Rhodes was once the best free safety in the game. I wasn't comparing them on the talent level anyway.

Yes, it would. No one who actually watched football on Sundays would say that. Rhodes was maybe the best safety in his division, but he never came close to Polumalu, Reed, Dawkins, Sanders, Wilson, and even Darren Sharper when he was with the Vikings.

 

[kerouac9]

I didn't know Pace could play in the secondary... The Cardinals put as much pressure on Rothlisberger as any team had that entire season. But, DRC made some mistakes, and Francisco's coverage was horrible in that game.

Rice leaving wasn't about talent evaluation. He made himself toxic to the organization.
KVB - multiple serious injuries, the Titans took a low risk chance on him and it worked out.
Hill - Frankly, I don't remember the details.
Chavous - failed at corner, refused to switch to safety, Went else where and played safety.
Pace - Overpaid, at the time, by the Jets.
Hood - I agree!

I also forgot Leonard Davis and Thomas Jones. You could probably add in Jake Plummer, too, since he lead the Broncos to the playoffs once or twice and had a 4000+ yard passing season in 2004.

 

[Duckjake]

I also forgot Leonard Davis and Thomas Jones. You could probably add in Jake Plummer, too, since he lead the Broncos to the playoffs once or twice and had a 4000+ yard passing season in 2004.

That the Cards as an organization have had serious troubles dealing with free agency is well documented in the W-L record of the franchise.

The Cards had competitive teams off and on in the 60s. They had competitive teams off and on in the 1970's. They even had decent teams off and on in the early 80s. It wasn't until free agency really started in the late 80s that the team went into the tank and went 23 years with only one winning season.

The Plan B free agency was a type of free agency that became active in the National Football League in February 1989. Plan B free agency permitted all teams in the NFL to preserve limited rights of no more than 37 total players a season. If a player was a protected Plan B free agent, he was incapable of signing with another team without providing his old team the first opportunity to sign him again. The rest of the players were left unprotected, liberated to negotiate contracts with the rest of the teams in the league.

We all know too well how hamstrung the team was playing in SDS and it is no small coincidence that the Cards finally started to win and at least start to break even on free agents once they moved to Glendale.

 

[WarnerHOF]

Yes, it would. No one who actually watched football on Sundays would say that. Rhodes was maybe the best safety in his division, but he never came close to Polumalu, Reed, Dawkins, Sanders, Wilson, and even Darren Sharper when he was with the Vikings.

Rhodes was an amazing safety and the most underrated one back in 06-07. His name isn't as big as those four but his play was most definately up there. He could blitz, cover TEs, play zone, stop the run and never gave up big plays.

Why even mention Darren Sharper? He has always been horrible in all areas outside of being a ballhawk.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Rhodes was an amazing safety and the most underrated one back in 06-07. His name isn't as big as those four but his play was most definately up there. He could blitz, cover TEs, play zone, stop the run and never gave up big plays.

Why even mention Darren Sharper? He has always been horrible in all areas outside of being a ballhawk.

I guess there's no reason Rhodes shouldn't be all-pro this season then. People sure are on the Kerry Rhodes bandwagon. Why, i have no idea . I guess he had one decent year about 4 yeras ago. That means nothing. Carlos Quentin almost won league MVP for the White Sox in 2008 and now can't hit .200. I just hope Rhodes isn't as bad as Terence Holt.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I just hope Rhodes isn't as bad as Terence Holt.

Seriously ? I mean realize how bad T.Holt is. If that is the case then Matt Ware will be starting by the end of camp. Cause Rashad Johnson could beat out T.Holt. Robert Griffith can come off the golf course and beat out T. Holt.


In Rhodes defense, and this would be the extent that I will defend the guy. Saying he has only had one good year, would be the logic that teams have used on players like Calvin Pace, or Antonio Smith in the past.

 

[kerouac9]

Seriously ? I mean realize how bad T.Holt is. If that is the case then Matt Ware will be starting by the end of camp. Cause Rashad Johnson could beat out T.Holt. Robert Griffith can come off the golf course and beat out T. Holt.


In Rhodes defense, and this would be the extent that I will defend the guy. Saying he has only had one good year, would be the logic that teams have used on players like Calvin Pace, or Antonio Smith in the past.

But those guys followed up that good year with another good year. And in Pace's case, a third.

Rhodes followed his season up with returning to obscurity.

 

[kerouac9]

Rhodes was an amazing safety and the most underrated one back in 06-07. His name isn't as big as those four but his play was most definately up there. He could blitz, cover TEs, play zone, stop the run and never gave up big plays.

Why even mention Darren Sharper? He has always been horrible in all areas outside of being a ballhawk.

LOL. Now I know that I don't need to listen to you anymore.

 

[JeffGollin]

I guess there's no reason Rhodes shouldn't be all-pro this season then.

There are plenty of reasons Rhodes shouldn't be all-pro this season (like injuries, outstanding safeties on other teams, losing more of his mojo etc.)

But this doesn't mean there aren't reasons he could (like being reborn in a new environment, with new teammates & playing in a different system).

 

[joeshmo]

I guess there's no reason Rhodes shouldn't be all-pro this season then. People sure are on the Kerry Rhodes bandwagon. Why, i have no idea . I guess he had one decent year about 4 yeras ago. That means nothing. Carlos Quentin almost won league MVP for the White Sox in 2008 and now can't hit .200. I just hope Rhodes isn't as bad as Terence Holt.

There must be another Kerry Rhodes because you are not talking about the Kerry Rhodes, formally of the Jets, currently a Cardinal.

In three years of starting he has only given up 3 total TD's and rarely if ever beaten deep giving up an average of 11.0 and 8.7 yards per catch each of the last two years. He without a shadow of a doubt did not just have one decent (and it was way more then just decent by the way) season 4 years ago, he has been consistently good his whole career.

Please who ever brought up Darren Sharper just hasn't been paying attention to how the guy plays. Bringing up Sharper is a clear cut case of just naming guys with names to see who sticks. For all the INT's he gets he gives up way more TD's and long balls. Giving up a career yards per reception average of over 18 yards a catch. The guy is one of the most overrated D players to ever be in the league, but since people only focus on the sexy stats like sacks and INT's they usually cant see the forest through the tree's on the player if they have those sexy stats. He has so many INT's because teams throw at him at will because they know they will get huge gains on him more times then not.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

There must be another Kerry Rhodes because you are not talking about the Kerry Rhodes, formally of the Jets, currently a Cardinal.

In three years of starting he has only given up 3 total TD's and rarely if ever beaten deep giving up an average of 11.0 and 8.7 yards per catch each of the last two years. He without a shadow of a doubt did not just have one decent (and it was way more then just decent by the way) season 4 years ago, he has been consistently good his whole career.

Please who ever brought up Darren Sharper just hasn't been paying attention to how the guy plays. Bringing up Sharper is a clear cut case of just naming guys with names to see who sticks. For all the INT's he gets he gives up way more TD's and long balls. Giving up a career yards per reception average of over 18 yards a catch. The guy is one of the most overrated D players to ever be in the league, but since people only focus on the sexy stats like sacks and INT's they usually cant see the forest through the tree's on the player if they have those sexy stats. He has so many INT's because teams throw at him at will because they know they will get huge gains on him more times then not.

But since the Cardinals signed him he sucks, and the only way Rhodes is going to get any better is if the Cardinals let him go via free agency. Then he will be a core player that the Cardinals can't afford to lose.

 

[kerouac9]

There must be another Kerry Rhodes because you are not talking about the Kerry Rhodes, formally of the Jets, currently a Cardinal.

In three years of starting he has only given up 3 total TD's and rarely if ever beaten deep giving up an average of 11.0 and 8.7 yards per catch each of the last two years. He without a shadow of a doubt did not just have one decent (and it was way more then just decent by the way) season 4 years ago, he has been consistently good his whole career.

Please who ever brought up Darren Sharper just hasn't been paying attention to how the guy plays. Bringing up Sharper is a clear cut case of just naming guys with names to see who sticks. For all the INT's he gets he gives up way more TD's and long balls. Giving up a career yards per reception average of over 18 yards a catch. The guy is one of the most overrated D players to ever be in the league, but since people only focus on the sexy stats like sacks and INT's they usually cant see the forest through the tree's on the player if they have those sexy stats. He has so many INT's because teams throw at him at will because they know they will get huge gains on him more times then not.

NFL QB rating against Darren Sharper in 2009: 34.7
Against Adrian Wilson: 53.0
Against Kerry Rhodes: 55.2

Completion % against Sharper: 35.1
Wilson: 53.8
Rhodes: 66.7

Thrown at Sharper: 37
Wilson: 52(!)
Rhodes: 36

NFL QB rating against Darren Sharper in 2008: 98.7 (hence leaving Minnesota)
Against Adrian Wilson: 82.5
Against Kerry Rhodes: 66.7

Completion % against Sharper: 64.1
Wilson: 59.6
Rhodes: 66.7

Thrown at Sharper: 39
Wilson: 47(!)
Rhodes: 33

Where are your stats coming from, Joe?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

There must be another Kerry Rhodes because you are not talking about the Kerry Rhodes, formally of the Jets, currently a Cardinal.

In three years of starting he has only given up 3 total TD's and rarely if ever beaten deep giving up an average of 11.0 and 8.7 yards per catch each of the last two years. He without a shadow of a doubt did not just have one decent (and it was way more then just decent by the way) season 4 years ago, he has been consistently good his whole career.

Please who ever brought up Darren Sharper just hasn't been paying attention to how the guy plays. Bringing up Sharper is a clear cut case of just naming guys with names to see who sticks. For all the INT's he gets he gives up way more TD's and long balls. Giving up a career yards per reception average of over 18 yards a catch. The guy is one of the most overrated D players to ever be in the league, but since people only focus on the sexy stats like sacks and INT's they usually cant see the forest through the tree's on the player if they have those sexy stats. He has so many INT's because teams throw at him at will because they know they will get huge gains on him more times then not.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

There must be another Kerry Rhodes because you are not talking about the Kerry Rhodes, formally of the Jets, currently a Cardinal.

In three years of starting he has only given up 3 total TD's and rarely if ever beaten deep giving up an average of 11.0 and 8.7 yards per catch each of the last two years. He without a shadow of a doubt did not just have one decent (and it was way more then just decent by the way) season 4 years ago, he has been consistently good his whole career.

Please who ever brought up Darren Sharper just hasn't been paying attention to how the guy plays. Bringing up Sharper is a clear cut case of just naming guys with names to see who sticks. For all the INT's he gets he gives up way more TD's and long balls. Giving up a career yards per reception average of over 18 yards a catch. The guy is one of the most overrated D players to ever be in the league, but since people only focus on the sexy stats like sacks and INT's they usually cant see the forest through the tree's on the player if they have those sexy stats. He has so many INT's because teams throw at him at will because they know they will get huge gains on him more times then not.

No, i'm talking about the same Kerry Rhodes. I went back and looked at his 2007/2008 years and took a look at the QB's he played aginst those 2 years. I noticed a not too distinguished list he put up those "numbers against. However when they faced a good QB, the Jets defense tended to get lit up.
2007: Brady- 38 points allowed
JP Losman-twice, he stinks
Eli- 35 points
Palmer- 38 points
McNabb-16 points, we all know about McNabb
Campbell
Roethlisberger- Pitt was still a primarily running team
Romo- 34 points
Derek Anderson
John Beck, Trent Green
Brodie Croyle
not exactly a who's who of QB's that they had success against.

2008: Chad "noodle arm" Pennington twice
Matt Cassell-once in his 1st career start
Rivers- 48 points allowed
Warner- 35 points
Fitzpatrick
JaMarcus Russell
Thigpen
Edwards/Losman
Kerry Collins
Bulger
Cutler-34 points
Shaun Hill
Seneca Wallace
I think Terence Holt could put up those type numbers against that sorry group of QB's. So let's just say i'm not sold on Kerry Rhodes.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

 

[vinnymac]

It's hacky stat.

 

[CardLogic]

It's hacky stat.

No kidding!

Good QB's/teams score more points than bad QB's/teams; who would have guessed?

 

[kerouac9]

I just want to make it clear that I do not think that Kerry Rhodes is going to remind us of the good old days when Terrance Holt was starting for us. That has never been my argument.

But I am going to say that the inevitable comparisons between Antrel Rolle and Terrance Holt are going to be massively overstated.

I think that Kerry Rhodes is going to be about the same as Antrel Rolle. Rhodes will probably be a little better in deep coverage, but not as good against the run and not as good in man.

That's why one guy is the highest-paid safety in the NFL and the other guy got dumped for a 5th round pick and a 2011 7th round pick. Do I think that Antrel Rolle got overpaid? Hell yes, I do. But I'm prepared to eat crow on that the same way I'm eating/ate crow on Kyle Vanden Bosch, Calvin Pace, and others that have been mentioned in this thread.