Thoughts on the Cleveland Win

Mitch

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As Catfish so aptly predicted---this was the ultimate trap game---Cleveland had 10 days to prepare--yes they were without Colt McCoy---but, their head coach coached in the NFC West last year and knows the Cardinals well---their backup QB played in the NFC West for years and Seneca Wallace presented a much different challenge for the Cardinals---as we saw---you HAVE to keep contain on him---you CANNOT edge blitz to his inside shoulder as Mike Adams did and expect a good outcome. Plus---they have one of the most talented and physical offensive lines in the NFL and a beast of a RB in Hillis. Furthermore---their defense is physical and potentially dynamic all across the board--they are stout up front, their DEs in rookie Sheard (whom I am many other hear wanted so badly to be a Cardinal) and Gocong are very good---their LBers (D'Quell and Maiava) are active and physical and Joe Haden is a potentially elite CB. And then, for added measure their STs featuring Josh Cribbs in the return game is formidible.

Sure---they've been losing games---but like the Cardinals 7 weeks ago, they are on the verge of turning the corner and turning it, imo, for good the next few years.

Thus---the beginning of this game did not surprise me in the least----

But---after Hillis was ripping the field up and Wallace was calmly making good reads and throwing darts---what I began to wonder is when the wake-up call on defense would come---and it did, imo, when D-Wash stepped up and laid two ferocious licks on Hillis---that and a rejuvenated Kerry Rhodes and Richard Marshall started filling the gaps with authority.

Meanwhile---the offense was getting out-quicked---and John Skelton was feeling his way through the pressure---there were some passes he threw that could have been caught, albeit they were a little off the mark---but when you look at some of those throws Skelton was trying to throw them around the hands-up pressure he was getting up the middle.

Skelton's drive at the end of the half was a thing of beauty---and I sensed right then that he was going to find a way to pull this one out.

Even after Adams' gaffe, and the long TD pass---I sensed that it now became Skelton time.

He got so unlucky on the Skrine interception---and to be quite frank I felt that if Early Doucet had played with full concentration that this game could have been much different---Doucet dropped three passes that could have been crucial to the outcome, including the slant pass he dropped at the 5 yard line on 2nd and 16 after the turnover and failed shuffle pass (which BTW, versus a goal-line defense stacked to stop the run after Beanie has just scored on them---was such a curious call, especially with Fitz matched up one on one to the outside, and with a running game that was starting to turn 2 yards into 4.

The officiating was infuriating at times---especially on the third and short where the Cardinals clearly stuffed Hillis short of the marker---and yet, did you see what I saw---as the players were unpiling---the official who had the original mark right took a one yard step in Cleveland's direction---I would want to ask about that guy---it was an egregious decision on his part and I was furious that Whisenhunt didn't challenge---there is a time when a HC has to do right by his defense and have their backs---and this time in addition to the early decision not to challenge the pass to the five yard line on the opening drive where it looked as if the WR landed his shoulder out of bounds---and yet no challenge from Whisenhunt---when he did challenge it was clear that the play was going to stand---maybe he was trying to ice the kicker as he did the previous week---

However, Whisenhunt made up for it all when he challenged the Wallace fumble---a call that I was sure he wasn't going to get (at least we didn't have Mike Perriera or whatever his name is---chiming in against the Cardinals as he ALWAYS does)---and yet we learn about the back of the hand rule and Whisenhunt wins the challenge.

Say what you will about Skelton---but 313 yards and 13 unanswered points from a 17-7 deficit and again he pulls off the win.

To me there is no QB controversy---when you are basically 5-1 and have led the team from behind in all of those games---you are the man. It's sickening to me to hear the disrespect he gets. He has what, 9 NFL starts? What do you people expect?

The main thing I have said all along about his is he plays unafraid---and that is a gift for a young inexperienced QB---and when he makes a mistake he has the fortitude to come right back and overcome it.

Yet the scrutiny he is receiving from fans and his own HC is mind-boggling to me---sure if he were a five year veteran like Kolb---but this kid has transitioned as an afterthought starter from the Patriot League to a 7-3 record in the NFL for a team that has gone 5-15 in games without him.

And yet I know---one stinker of a game and he will be summarily dismissed by many of the fans and possibly by that man whose job he helped to save this season and last. That's the great irony to me. Skelton wins another comeback game and the HC is quick to remind the media about the missed seam pass to Fitz earlier in the game---on a pass that if Fitz doesn't slip because of the ridiculously slippery UofP grass, that Fitz still could have easily caught. How about the strikes Skelton threw to Roberts (TD under pressure) and Heap? How about the game winning strike to Fitz that was thrown on the money with touch?

I don't know about you, but I am not expecting EVERY pass to be thrown on the money---not with the pressure our QBs get. I expect him to be close, which he was on almost all of his throws, save four or five.

In light of the circumstances---and the opportunistic plays from Scho and PP21---and the timely response to the 17-7 deficit, I think this was a GREAT win!
 
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Mulli

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Bravo!


Point of order: I called it a trap game before Catfish. :)
 

RedViper

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The officiating was infuriating at times---especially on the third and short where the Cardinals clearly stuffed Hillis short of the marker---and yet, did you see what I saw---as the players were unpiling---the official who had the original mark right took a one yard step in Cleveland's direction


This totally happened exactly as you described it. I'm glad I'm not crazy. You think you've seen everything but no, they always come up with some new buffoonery to stink up our game.
 

Vermont Maverick

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I did notice the ref running toward the mark - I didn't see him step a yard, but he was not running parallel, he kept angling closer to the first down, and gave a "left foot" mark. It did look like he was short of the marker.

Good call on the Washington hits - inspiring.

The WR at the 5 did not look out of bounds to me. I saw a foot, knee, and hip hit before the shoulder on that one. Glad Whiz didn't challenge that.

Whiz started to say better things about Skelton at the last presser. And I think people are giving Skelton some props. Some never will, but some definitely are. He clearly has some good positives. That is more than can be said about your statements toward Whiz. Give it a rest. Winningest coach in history and a SB appearance. Yeah, a crappy history, but geez.
 

Goldfield

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^^^ I saw this also. I was like WTF?!?!

This was the first game I saw Skelton start to make much better throws. It seemed like he started to get it as a QB.
 

Paso Fino

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If you put aside the player and draft choice the Cardinals gave up for Kolb and the amount they agreed to pay him and put aside that Skelton was a fifth round draft choice and then compared the two based on their career productions, which one would you prefer?
 

Catfish

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I may know why the guy suddenly took a step toward the next yard marker. When the guy who spotted the ball outside at the spot of the tackle started moving in towards the hash marks, he clearly was on a path that diminished the spot by nearly a full yard. I am sure that the guy inside had initially made his read and took the spot, then later he looked up and saw that he was out of position according to the side judge who initially spotted the ball at the point of the tackle. That was more than likely when he took the step to correct his spot at the hash mark. Clearly the side judge meandered toward the next hash mark as he came down inside. I can't imagine it happening any other way.
 

MrYeahBut

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I've always thought rules official Mike Periera to be completely evenhanded in his analysis. Don't know where the berating of him comes from. Personally, I like what he has to say whether the Cards win the challenge or not.
 

az1965

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I agree on Skelton assessment! Dude has done nothing but won without much preparation or offseason.
 

Snakester

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Nice writeup Walter. I think Skelton is coming along very well. The last two games he has done very well. He is more accurate with his throws. I hope he starts the next two games. I really hope that the Cards let Skelton compete for the starters spot next year in camp. I think he wins it if given the chance. If Skelton had five years in the NFL like Kolb I don't think there would be a competition at all. I see Skelton as our future QB.
 

NeverSayDieFan

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Good Post, Mitch....

I've been in Skelton's camp from the beginning. I see "potential"( ie; Tough to bring down; unflappable approach; decent arm strength, etc...)

It seems to me that the coaching staff is letting him feel his way in the 1st half. I honestly get frustrated with this strategy at times (ie; 5-10 yard under-neath passes) It's when he starts to go down-field that he seems to get in a nice rhythm. I also think he prefers the hurry-up offense and I was glad when they went to it early in the 4th in the Browns' game.

Here's one BIG chip on Skelton'side as he goes forward. He's making a habit of rallying the team when the chips are on the table. Now, if I'm a defensive player I'm thinking....keep us within 2 scores and we're going to win this thing. Offensively, I'm thinking it's our time to get it done. 2 scores and we win. The belief...the strength of will...that somehow...someway..they're going to get it done is what seperates the good from the bad teams in my opinion.

Hoping to win is NOT the same as KNOWING you're going to win.

Mark in SC :)
 

RedRob

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Spot Challenge - Or Lack Thereof

Like many here I was frustrated with the spot. However spot challenges are extremely tough to win especially when it's a run up the middle. It's nearly impossible to tell exactly where the spot should be with so many bodies blocking the field of view. In other words while I was ticked with the spot I didn't think Whiz should have challenged it.

Goal line challenges are much easier to make a clear distinction, not so much for the middle of the field.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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I don't get all the backhanded comments aimed at Whiz. I like that he keeps he players in check by pointing out their mistakes. He praises players as well. But if all you do is praise your guys, you end up with clowns like Santonio Holmes costing you games but still celebrating down 20+ points.

Whiz had lost a challenge early. If he challenged the spot, and lost, which was entirely possible, even likely, then he's out of challenges and doesn't get to challenge a more crucial play, like the fumble. I think it was a smart call by him not to challenge. I also have no problem with the first challenge. The ball was extremely close to touching the ground and you couldn't really tell until the super slo-mo replay. If that was overturned then Cleve probably punts instead of a FG. I like that the challenges he used occurred on plays that could take points off the board of be game changing plays like the two he chose to challenge Sunday. Challenging a spot on the minus 30 side of the field seems a waste to me unless it's severely obvious or it's late in the game, you're down, and desperately need the ball back.
 

Lomax to Green 84

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Great job as always! I agree on Skelton. Cleveland is a much better defense than people give credit. They completely shut down Pittsburgh's offense the week before.
 

LarryStalling

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Holmgren, a former Cardinal, seemingly has learned how to not put a team together. Like you, I think when McCoy gets some more experience under his belt that the Browns will be a better team. The problem they have is that they just need some more time. Like the Cards, a lack of training camp really hurt their progress.

Nice write up Mitch! Thank you for the effort and analysis.
 

Russ Smith

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Like many here I was frustrated with the spot. However spot challenges are extremely tough to win especially when it's a run up the middle. It's nearly impossible to tell exactly where the spot should be with so many bodies blocking the field of view. In other words while I was ticked with the spot I didn't think Whiz should have challenged it.

Goal line challenges are much easier to make a clear distinction, not so much for the middle of the field.

I pointed it out on the game thread at the time. the thing is even if they move the spot an inch, and still get the first down, you get your timeout back because it's a successful challenge. So the risk is less.

The main thing there is it was so obvious where the ref initially spotted it and where he wound up were not the same thing, and the ref who moved the ball forward was clearly wrong.

I actually think we would have won the challenge.
 

football karma

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I pointed it out on the game thread at the time. the thing is even if they move the spot an inch, and still get the first down, you get your timeout back because it's a successful challenge. So the risk is less.

.

Russ: are you sure thats the case?

IIRC, Wis doesn't win the challenge unless the spotting of the ball makes a difference --i.e. no first down
 

football karma

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I don't get all the backhanded comments aimed at Whiz. I like that he keeps he players in check by pointing out their mistakes. He praises players as well. But if all you do is praise your guys, you end up with clowns like Santonio Holmes costing you games but still celebrating down 20+ points.

Whiz had lost a challenge early. If he challenged the spot, and lost, which was entirely possible, even likely, then he's out of challenges and doesn't get to challenge a more crucial play, like the fumble. I think it was a smart call by him not to challenge. I also have no problem with the first challenge. The ball was extremely close to touching the ground and you couldn't really tell until the super slo-mo replay. If that was overturned then Cleve probably punts instead of a FG. I like that the challenges he used occurred on plays that could take points off the board of be game changing plays like the two he chose to challenge Sunday. Challenging a spot on the minus 30 side of the field seems a waste to me unless it's severely obvious or it's late in the game, you're down, and desperately need the ball back.

I am with you

challenges/timeouts are a scare resource

you don't waste them on a short yardage spot (which rarely have the kind of TV angles needed to be conclusive) , early in the game, on your side of the field --- even if you think you are right.
 

Chopper0080

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I pointed it out on the game thread at the time. the thing is even if they move the spot an inch, and still get the first down, you get your timeout back because it's a successful challenge. So the risk is less.

The main thing there is it was so obvious where the ref initially spotted it and where he wound up were not the same thing, and the ref who moved the ball forward was clearly wrong.

I actually think we would have won the challenge.

Rule Clarification: You only get your timeout back if the change in the spot does not lead to a first down. If they change the spot, but it still results in a first down, you lose the challenge.
 

Mainstreet

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To me there is no QB controversy---when you are basically 5-1 and have led the team from behind in all of those games---you are the man. It's sickening to me to hear the disrespect he gets. He has what, 9 NFL starts? What do you people expect?

This sums it up for me. Skelton is a young QB that is having to learn his job in the face of adversity and still manages to win. I don't know how much more one can ask of a young QB in his second year from a small school. Yet, he has so much upside that has not been tapped.
 

Shane

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I don't get all the backhanded comments aimed at Whiz. I like that he keeps he players in check by pointing out their mistakes. He praises players as well. But if all you do is praise your guys, you end up with clowns like Santonio Holmes costing you games but still celebrating down 20+ points.

Whiz had lost a challenge early. If he challenged the spot, and lost, which was entirely possible, even likely, then he's out of challenges and doesn't get to challenge a more crucial play, like the fumble. I think it was a smart call by him not to challenge. I also have no problem with the first challenge. The ball was extremely close to touching the ground and you couldn't really tell until the super slo-mo replay. If that was overturned then Cleve probably punts instead of a FG. I like that the challenges he used occurred on plays that could take points off the board of be game changing plays like the two he chose to challenge Sunday. Challenging a spot on the minus 30 side of the field seems a waste to me unless it's severely obvious or it's late in the game, you're down, and desperately need the ball back.

:thumbup:
 

Mainstreet

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It seems to me that the coaching staff is letting him feel his way in the 1st half. I honestly get frustrated with this strategy at times (ie; 5-10 yard under-neath passes) It's when he starts to go down-field that he seems to get in a nice rhythm. I also think he prefers the hurry-up offense and I was glad when they went to it early in the 4th in the Browns' game.

I think throwing the ball down field is his biggest asset because he has a cannon for an arm. It helps spread the defense. Agree, Skelton appears very comfortable with the hurry-up offense.
 

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