Thoughts on this draft...

[KloD]

The Suns and Utah dueling over Hayward is like a couple of stock brokers fighting over a vanilla latte.

Hey! That's racist!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Also, Gasol is no longer a top-tier FA, neither is Wade, and definitely not Gortat. Dirk is going nowhere and Bledsoe is under the Suns control.

Gortat value is as high as he ever has been. It might surprise. There is way more money out there than value.

 

[Mainstreet]

Are the Suns obligated to sign first round draft pick Tyler Ennis? I suspect they are but if a trade is still a viable option they might consider it. Sometimes I think the Suns tried to outmaneuver Toronto who reportedly had interest in Ennis and got left holding the bag.

 

[elindholm]

Sometimes I think the Suns tried to outmaneuver Toronto who reportedly had interest in Ennis and got left holding the bag.

Yeah, unless they were really sold on him, they should have traded him to Toronto right away, while the Raptors will so hot for him. Now it's too late.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, unless they were really sold on him, they should have traded him to Toronto right away, while the Raptors will so hot for him. Now it's too late.

I don't think Ennis has signed with the Suns unless I missed it. Do you mean there no trade value for him due to his poor play? I think he still technically could be traded for something minimal like a second round pick.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, unless they were really sold on him, they should have traded him to Toronto right away, while the Raptors will so hot for him. Now it's too late.

The knocks against him were his ability to shoot and his need to gain strength. Those are still the knocks against him. But he has good court vision, passes the ball well, controls the tempo and most importantly, he's still Canadian. I don't think he's made himself untradable to anyone and certainly not to Toronto. Nobody played well today but our lineup was incredibly weak. And the trio of centers we expected to play gave us a grand total of 55 seconds today.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Wow. I don't think I'm going to give anyone here the power to decide when to pull the plug on me. First time I close my eyes you guys will be yanking the cord from the wall.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Wow. I don't think I'm going to give anyone here the power to decide when to pull the plug on me. First time I close my eyes you guys will be yanking the cord from the wall.

Steve

Funny stuff. Tyler Ennis being compared to Kendall Marshall has wore on me.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't think Ennis has signed with the Suns unless I missed it. Do you mean there no trade value for him due to his poor play? I think he still technically could be traded for something minimal like a second round pick.

Yea but highly unlikely they will do that though, the fall out and backlash for trading a #18 pick from 3 weeks ago for a 2nd rd pick would be too much imo.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Funny stuff. Tyler Ennis being compared to Kendall Marshall has wore on me.

I think I was probably the first one here to knock Marshall as an NBA prospect. A few months before the draft I got into an argument with our forum college "expert" and I made the case that his poor shooting form and lack of foot speed would keep him from being a star in the NBA. Ennis needs to improve his shot but unlike Marshall, he doesn't look like he's too slow to play the game. And even Marshall is starting to figure out ways to be marginally successful.

I was unaware of Marshall's headstrong attitude until summer ball and it's possible Ennis has a similar problem that I'm unaware of but until the whispers start I'm going to continue to believe in him. I think his problems are easily addressed. We make excuses for Archie due to his age, Tyler is a week younger than Goodwin.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I think I was probably the first one here to knock Marshall as an NBA prospect. A few months before the draft I got into an argument with our forum college "expert" and I made the case that his poor shooting form and lack of foot speed would keep him from being a star in the NBA. Ennis needs to improve his shot but unlike Marshall, he doesn't look like he's too slow to play the game. And even Marshall is starting to figure out ways to be marginally successful.

I was unaware of Marshall's headstrong attitude until summer ball and it's possible Ennis has a similar problem that I'm unaware of but until the whispers start I'm going to continue to believe in him. I think his problems are easily addressed. We make excuses for Archie due to his age, Tyler is a week younger than Goodwin.

Steve

However, Goodwin is an athletic freak where Ennis is not. I'm willing to let it play out, however, I hope McDonough did not get outsmarted by Toronto who may have feigned interest in Ennis.

 

[KloD]

Just an FYI. If they have not signed him, they could trade him. I'm not sure how that works though. Once signed, they can't trade him for 30 days.

That said, he's 19 years old. He's a baby like Goodwin. Those two were never drafted with the thought they'd be ready in a 1 or 2 years. I suspect by year 3 with both we should see whether they will last in the NBA or not. They won't be close at that point to being anything more than backups, but we will know if they are showing enough improvement to continue with their development or ship them off to some other club who thinks they can make something of them. I expect both to warm the bench and cheerlead for their first 2 years. IMO anything we get out of them before their 3rd year is bonus. If the Suns were in a position to contend, these two would be you 14th and 15th guys being bullied in practice, but since the Suns have a year or two depending on their success in getting the right front court before they will be ready to even make noise in the playoffs, these guys might as well be on the active roster.

 

[AzStevenCal]

However, Goodwin is an athletic freak where Ennis is not. I'm willing to let it play out, however, I hope McDonough did not get outsmarted by Toronto who may have feigned interest in Ennis.

Ennis is a smart player while Goodwin is not. I think that's far more important. I really don't understand the concern here. He looked good at times in the summer league but the scouting report proved to be right on the mark for both strengths and weaknesses. Everyone knew he needed more time in college but he was pegged to go near the lottery and that's hard to pass up.

The league knew before the draft the same things it knows right now. I don't see how his value should in any way be more in doubt today than a month ago. And like I said, he's still Canadian and that's the main reason Toronto wants him. Well, that and the fact he's a pure point guard in a league that sees fewer and fewer each year.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I think I was probably the first one here to knock Marshall as an NBA prospect.

Wrong, it was me

I called him a bust and hated the selection since day 1. I hated it almost to Phrazbit-Beasley levels.

I think Ennis will be better than Marshall cause he's got a better attitude and is slightly more quicker than Marshall. I think Ennis' jump shooting ability and how much he improves it will tell if he turns out better than Marshall or not. Their both about the same in terms of passing.

 

[sunsfan88]

Just an FYI. If they have not signed him, they could trade him. I'm not sure how that works though. Once signed, they can't trade him for 30 days.

That said, he's 19 years old. He's a baby like Goodwin. Those two were never drafted with the thought they'd be ready in a 1 or 2 years. I suspect by year 3 with both we should see whether they will last in the NBA or not. They won't be close at that point to being anything more than backups, but we will know if they are showing enough improvement to continue with their development or ship them off to some other club who thinks they can make something of them. I expect both to warm the bench and cheerlead for their first 2 years. IMO anything we get out of them before their 3rd year is bonus. If the Suns were in a position to contend, these two would be you 14th and 15th guys being bullied in practice, but since the Suns have a year or two depending on their success in getting the right front court before they will be ready to even make noise in the playoffs, these guys might as well be on the active roster.

I think if he doesn't show anything in year 1 due to lack of playing or whatever, he will lose ton of trade value.

In comparison, Kendall Marshall was a lottery pick who didn't show much his rookie season and ended up being thrown in as a filler to Washington. The Wizards didn't even want him despite needing a backup PG (for which they later traded for Andre Miller) and waived Marshall immediately.

Ennis will have that same type of trade value maybe even less if he doesn't show much either.

*im not saying he will suck for life if he doesn't show anything his rookie season, im speaking only in terms of trade value

 

[elindholm]

Do you mean there no trade value for him due to his poor play?

Yes, that's what I meant, specifically with respect to Toronto paying a high price for him.

I think he still technically could be traded for something minimal like a second round pick.

I assume the Suns can trade his rights -- I don't know why they couldn't -- but if they have to dump him for a second-round pick, that would be a horrible concession. Better to wait and see whether he can find his game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Wrong, it was me

I called him a bust and hated the selection since day 1. I hated it almost to Phrazbit-Beasley levels.

I think Ennis will be better than Marshall cause he's got a better attitude and is slightly more quicker than Marshall. I think Ennis' jump shooting ability and how much he improves it will tell if he turns out better than Marshall or not. Their both about the same in terms of passing.

Two months BEFORE the draft, I got into an argument with slin on Marshall.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Yes, that's what I meant, specifically with respect to Toronto paying a high price for him.

I assume the Suns can trade his rights -- I don't know why they couldn't -- but if they have to dump him for a second-round pick, that would be a horrible concession. Better to wait and see whether he can find his game.

I'm uncertain how much money Ennis will cost the Suns if they sign him over the length of his contract. I think it is slotted but I can't find the details. If the Suns have options after year two, I can live with it.

 

[elindholm]

I'm uncertain how much money Ennis will cost the Suns if they sign him over the length of his contract. I think it is slotted but I can't find the details.

You can get close by identifying the player who was taken at the same draft position a year ago, and looking up his salary. The #18 pick in 2013 was Shane Larkin, who currently belongs to the Knicks. He is due to make $1.6 million this season. So Ennis will be something close to that.

The contracts for first-round picks are guaranteed for only two years, so the Suns' loss exposure is only a bit over $3 million, which is minimal.

 

[Mainstreet]

You can get close by identifying the player who was taken at the same draft position a year ago, and looking up his salary. The #18 pick in 2013 was Shane Larkin, who currently belongs to the Knicks. He is due to make $1.6 million this season. So Ennis will be something close to that.

The contracts for first-round picks are guaranteed for only two years, so the Suns' loss exposure is only a bit over $3 million, which is minimal.

You have relieved my mind. I guess this is not terrible for a player that will likely be playing in the development league.

 

[tobiazz]

The Wizards didn't even want [Kendall Marshall] despite needing a backup PG (for which they later traded for Andre Miller) and waived Marshall immediately.

Yeah, I thought that was pretty hilarious at the time.

 

[KloD]

I think if he doesn't show anything in year 1 due to lack of playing or whatever, he will lose ton of trade value.

In comparison, Kendall Marshall was a lottery pick who didn't show much his rookie season and ended up being thrown in as a filler to Washington. The Wizards didn't even want him despite needing a backup PG (for which they later traded for Andre Miller) and waived Marshall immediately.

Ennis will have that same type of trade value maybe even less if he doesn't show much either.

*im not saying he will suck for life if he doesn't show anything his rookie season, im speaking only in terms of trade value

Of course, but that's the gamble you take going in when you draft a player based on potential. With an 18th pick or even 14th, you either pick someone you think has the best chance to help in some way their 1st season or you pick a guy you think could have been a higher pick had they remained in college another year or two. Very few draft picks are a "sure thing", but I like the idea of gambling on later lottery or late round picks. You're sure to lose that gamble the majority of the time, but drafting someone you think can play a backup role their whole career, you can find those guys cheap in free agency. So if Ennis ends up being a Marshall, so be it IMO. I would always take that gamble.

 

[sunsfan88]

Of course, but that's the gamble you take going in when you draft a player based on potential. With an 18th pick or even 14th, you either pick someone you think has the best chance to help in some way their 1st season or you pick a guy you think could have been a higher pick had they remained in college another year or two. Very few draft picks are a "sure thing", but I like the idea of gambling on later lottery or late round picks. You're sure to lose that gamble the majority of the time, but drafting someone you think can play a backup role their whole career, you can find those guys cheap in free agency. So if Ennis ends up being a Marshall, so be it IMO. I would always take that gamble.

I think it's better to get guys in the mid to late teens who have the highest ceiling. I don't think neither Ennis or Marshall have very high ceilings at all.

Goodwin had A LOT more trade value after his rookie season than Marshall did despite Marshall playing more minutes than him his rookie season. I suspect the same for Ennis.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think it's better to get guys in the mid to late teens who have the highest ceiling. I don't think neither Ennis or Marshall have very high ceilings at all.

Goodwin had A LOT more trade value after his rookie season than Marshall did despite Marshall playing more minutes than him his rookie season. I suspect the same for Ennis.

There's an idea, start drafting 15 year olds.

I think you're suffering from fan bias with your Goodwin trade value comment. I have no idea what his value was but he was never a secret. He was a highly touted recruit that drove Cal crazy most of the time at Kentucky. The rumors said that he was going to go pro because he was likely to be benched as a sophomore because he just doesn't play smart. He makes pretty plays but he doesn't make your team better. He was there at the end of the round because of that and every time he takes the court he plays to his scouting report. Ennis has also played to his scouting report and I'm pretty sure he has more trade value right now that Archie does.

Steve

 

[KloD]

I think it's better to get guys in the mid to late teens who have the highest ceiling. I don't think neither Ennis or Marshall have very high ceilings at all.

Goodwin had A LOT more trade value after his rookie season than Marshall did despite Marshall playing more minutes than him his rookie season. I suspect the same for Ennis.

Isn't that what I said? My point is, I don't care about trade value and when you pick someone based on their presumed potential, you aren't drafting them based on trade value. You are drafting them because you believe they, over the long haul, have the chance to be the better player. It's a gamble, but if you are worried about their future trade value, than you would draft based what you presume it the safest pick.