Thoughts on Whis from John Clayton

clif

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Remember that whole "ego" debate from Denny's years here? Time to bring it back. Whiz's "ego" won't allow him to play nice with a QB that may challenge his playcalling. He gets guys that he can dominate mentally. He tries to break them down so that he can build them back up so he can seem brilliant. Too bad it hasn't worked because the guys that he usually picks are too mentally weak to overcome their own short comings let alone recognize what he actually has been doing to them.

Check the track record. Everyone wants to call Edge a malcontent... he retires rather than come back. Sure he was at the end of his career, but you don't think he was the best Cardinal RB in recent memory?

Warner.. best QB in Cardinal history period. He leads them to the superbowl and next year he retires after a hit. He doesn't even want to put up with it when everyone knows he can still play. Everyone wants him but he chose to walk away (for the right reasons) but there was no full court press by this team most notably from it's coach.

Peyton Manning.... he states he never told the Cardinals no...so we can only be led to believe that he didn't want the Cardinals... maybe the team (Whiz) didn't want him.

Now we want to bench one of our most loyal players all for the sake of what? Showing accountability? How about cutting that bum ass Heap? How about firing that slack ass Grimm? Come on. I am so tired of Whiz's crap right now.
 

Cardinals.Ken

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Every time I see John Clayton I turn on Slim Whitman music to see if his head will explode.
 

TruCard

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I will not agree that it was the wrong decision. Lindley took snaps with the first team that week. We were somewhat prepared for this. Lindley had a good pre-season, plenty of time to study and get ready.

Skelton had 1 yard passing. 1 yard passing guys. He missed Fitz on an open TD. Whisenhunt did the right thing. He was doing what he needed to do to win. If Lindley wins that game, everyone is praising that call. Our offense as a whole is the issue. From HC to OC to OL coach and so forth. Things will improve, next season.
 

azsouthendzone

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John Clayton is 100% right although anyone with half a brain would come to the same conclusion. This isn't rocket science.
 

azsouthendzone

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Remember that whole "ego" debate from Denny's years here? Time to bring it back. Whiz's "ego" won't allow him to play nice with a QB that may challenge his playcalling. He gets guys that he can dominate mentally. He tries to break them down so that he can build them back up so he can seem brilliant. Too bad it hasn't worked because the guys that he usually picks are too mentally weak to overcome their own short comings let alone recognize what he actually has been doing to them.

Check the track record. Everyone wants to call Edge a malcontent... he retires rather than come back. Sure he was at the end of his career, but you don't think he was the best Cardinal RB in recent memory?

Warner.. best QB in Cardinal history period. He leads them to the superbowl and next year he retires after a hit. He doesn't even want to put up with it when everyone knows he can still play. Everyone wants him but he chose to walk away (for the right reasons) but there was no full court press by this team most notably from it's coach.

Peyton Manning.... he states he never told the Cardinals no...so we can only be led to believe that he didn't want the Cardinals... maybe the team (Whiz) didn't want him.

Now we want to bench one of our most loyal players all for the sake of what? Showing accountability? How about cutting that bum ass Heap? How about firing that slack ass Grimm? Come on. I am so tired of Whiz's crap right now.

People hold Denny and Whiz accountable way differently. Denny at least built a talented team from the ground up. He had his faults but Whiz has plenty as well. I think if money wasn't an issue Whiz would be gone. The charade is over. Everyone knows it. It's just time to play it out until the axe falls.
 

AzStevenCal

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People hold Denny and Whiz accountable way differently. Denny at least built a talented team from the ground up. He had his faults but Whiz has plenty as well. I think if money wasn't an issue Whiz would be gone. The charade is over. Everyone knows it. It's just time to play it out until the axe falls.

Denny made a spectacle of himself on national TV at the worst possible time. This was a franchise trying to establish a new positive identity and he turned the wrong kind of attention our way. It had nothing to do with on the field results. Big difference.

Steve
 

Crazy Canuck

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People hold Denny and Whiz accountable way differently. Denny at least built a talented team from the ground up. He had his faults but Whiz has plenty as well. I think if money wasn't an issue Whiz would be gone. The charade is over. Everyone knows it. It's just time to play it out until the axe falls.

What else did you and Mike Bidwill discuss over lunch? Are we re-doing Kolb's deal and are we targeting a QB in the draft? Inquiring minds want to know.
 

Stout

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I will not agree that it was the wrong decision. Lindley took snaps with the first team that week. We were somewhat prepared for this. Lindley had a good pre-season, plenty of time to study and get ready.

Skelton had 1 yard passing. 1 yard passing guys. He missed Fitz on an open TD. Whisenhunt did the right thing. He was doing what he needed to do to win. If Lindley wins that game, everyone is praising that call. Our offense as a whole is the issue. From HC to OC to OL coach and so forth. Things will improve, next season.

Link? I have not read this.
 

Catfish

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Once again, Coach Whisenhunt's choices for, (and use of), quarterbacks has been bizarre. His desperate move to dump Skelton for Lindley, (during a game), and without being necessitated by injury, has once again confirmed to football people, that this is NOT a destination choice for franchise QB's.

This has been a trademark with him for his entire tenure as a head coach in the NFL. He is, (without a doubt), the most unfriendly QB handler in the entire coaching realm of the NFL during his time as a HC. It is no wonder why Arizona has had such a hard time getting a 'valued' quarterback to choose coming here to play. It is a 'death-nell' sentense for the career of any QB who chooses to come here in free agency.

Examine the facts. No highly valued QB has chosen to come to Az. Even Kurt Warner, (although he was a Denny Green selection), was not 'valued' by anyone in the league when he came here. Everyone in professional football, (except Warner himself), was of the opinion that he was finished as a starting caliber QB in the NFL at the time. Yes, other highly valued QB's have chosen to flirt with our FO during free agency, but none of those seriously considered Az. as the place be as a starting QB. They simply used our franchise's desire to land a top drawer QB in order to up their 'ante' in the free agency sweepstakes, (always choosing to go elsewhere), and they still do so. Prior to Whiz coming here, this was the LAST choice of valued QB's in the entire league.

Add to that, Whiz has not exactly turned this franchise into 'the destination stop' of the NFL for ANY free agents, (much less a franchise QB). First, there was his handling of the Leinart/Warner situation. His obvious dislike of Matt Leinart led him to platoon the two, (a situation that has NEVER been successful in the NFL). While that ploy has at times shown a positive temporary outcome in game performance, (as it did with Leinart/Warner), it has ALWAYS been detrimental to the welfare of the team in the long run.

That certainly was the situation here in the desert. His constantly pitting one against the other, only managed to create a situation in which it was impossible for both to succeed. Even with Whiz' obvious dislike for Leinart, he was reluctant to start Warner over him, for whatever reason. This did nothing to create a situation where competition actually was decisive in selecting a winner. If anything, the job went to Warner grudgingly.

Even to this day, Whiz has shown a proclivity to force a 'competition' between QB candidates, but he has shown NO SENSE for being able to determine when, (or even IF), one candidate has outplayed the other. Given this franchise's past failures at being a destination spot for 'valued' QB's, Whiz' handling of his QB's has simply confirmed to prospective free agent candidates that this is NOT the desired place for them to come.

Add to that, the fact that he has NEVER shown any inclination to instill his confidence in ANY QB on his roster, why should ANY legitimate QB desire to be 'his' guy. At best, any confidence shown by Whiz in his QB is fleeting, (mostly lasting only as long as it takes to make one mistake). One interception, one fumble, one miss-read, one failure to get rid of the ball quickly enough, one poor throw, is all that it takes to have any confidence that Whiz has shown for a particular QB to disappear immediately. No QB can become comfortable in Whiz' scheme. No one really EVER has his total trust and support. He seemingly ALWAYS has some little hurdle set up for the QB to overcome before he can accomplish his job.

Simply put, Whiz almost never puts his QB into a situation where he is MOST LIKELY to succeed. There is, (and always has been), the situation with the offensive line. Whiz never seems to have been on the same page as Grimm in the selection of, and the use of players along the O-line. I am sure that he intended to 'establish the run' mentality that was the forte of the Steelers. That went flying away once he realized that he could pass, pass, pass, with Warner. Yet, instead of changing out the run oriented line, he went about trying to secure as many weapons for Warner to throw to, in order to outscore the opponent in the long run. That created one lasting hurdle for the QB to overcome, as the O-line was not a proficient pass-blocking unit. What's more, he NEVER made it a priority to become proficient at pass blocking. In fact, he chose to ignore that weakness, by failing to help the linemen with TE play to assist in pass blocking. Instead, he used his TE's to provide more targets for his QB to throw to.

While Warner, (with his ability to make extremely quick reads and then fit the ball into extremely tight windows), was successful with that, none of his counterparts have been able to pull that off, (save Leinart), who simply checked down to a shorter throw which 'irked' Whiz to no end. Instead of fixing the line, Whiz has chosen to try to force EACH of his QB's to do what Warner could. None have been able to duplicate that feat, (though Kolb came close while paying the price for it by getting beat nearly to death).

Instead of inspiring great QB play by providing REAL help to his QB, Whiz simply plugs one after the other in, only to see them fail, one after the other. It has never seemed to register with him, that when he had the offense that could outscore his opponent, he never had the defense that could guarantee to hold onto a late lead. Now that he has no offense, he has been forced to fix the defense in order to be at least competitive. He seems somehow unable to channel his efforts to the overall picture, (seeming instead to focus only on one area at a time). Maybe that is the engineer in him. By believing that the data doesn't lie, he goes about concentrating his efforts to one end, knowing that he can fix that, (but seemingly he fails to see that doing so has detrimental consequences for the part of the team he is not concentrating on).

This is what I see as one of Whiz' biggest downfalls as a head coach. He gets too involved with fixing one aspect of his responsibility, but fails to oversee the whole operation. He cannot seem to delegate his responsibilities to position coaches or coordinators, and hold them responsible for their own results. Instead, he seems to jump in, (in their place), and try to fix it himself. He has done this with play calling, defense, and special teams. Each one has been exemplary at one point or another in his tenure as head coach. None have stayed that way when he has not given special attention to it (save for Horton's revival of the defense). To me he just seems better suited to be a position coach, or a coordinator than a head coach. He either seems to give his position coaches complete trust, (without follow-up to see if they are doing what is necessary), or he micro-manages them, (just as he does his quarterbacks). So long as he continues to do this, he seemingly cannot become the head coach that we need for this team in my opinion.

The real problem now, is that of finding a better option than Whiz to replace him. We may have that in Horton, but that is as yet an unknown. Is he the person who can sustain the defense, while finding a capable OC? Someone will more than likely find that out during this upcoming off-season. It would be nice to know that we could be the one to 'discover' Horton as a new HC. With our past experience at dallying around while the rest of the world is acting though, I have little faith that Horton will end up becoming OUR next HC. More than likely, our FO and ownership will remain undecided on what to do, and be relegated to either keeping Whiz for another year, or worse yet, ending up with yet another 'retread' NFL head coach. If that is the case, be prepared to tear down everything that we have now, and start all over, just as we did after hiring Buddy Ryan to replace a somewhat successful Joe Bugel.
 

FrustratedFan04

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i dunno know what it looked like on television, but there live with great seats and seeing the entire field, cheese and i were both onboard with benching skelton. that throw that he missed a WIDE OPEN fitz in the endzone is absolutely inexcusable. 100% inexcusable. throw that puppy underhand to fitz and it's a td. he had 1 completion for 1 yard for chrissake.

skelton is done as a starting qb. bellyache about the oline all you want, they were just subpar this week as opposed to atrocious and skelton was still atrocious. done and done.

100% in agreement. Missing Fitz was the end of the line and the msg was loud and clear when he went with Lindley.
 

Zeno

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Check the track record. Everyone wants to call Edge a malcontent... he retires rather than come back. Sure he was at the end of his career, but you don't think he was the best Cardinal RB in recent memory?

Not exactly true, Edge didn't retire after he was cut by the Cardinals, he signed with the Seahawks was pretty unsuccessful (2.7 yards a carry no TDs) and didn't announce his retirement (in 2011) until it was pretty clear no team wanted him and his deteriorating skills.

James had some success here but he wasn't all that good here either, never got 4 yards a carry and never more than 7 TDs but he was a big part of the reason we went to the Super Bowl because he was effective in the playoffs. I liked him when was here but we parted ways with him at the right time.
 

Duckjake

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Not exactly true, Edge didn't retire after he was cut by the Cardinals, he signed with the Seahawks was pretty unsuccessful (2.7 yards a carry no TDs) and didn't announce his retirement (in 2011) until it was pretty clear no team wanted him and his deteriorating skills.

James had some success here but he wasn't all that good here either, never got 4 yards a carry and never more than 7 TDs but he was a big part of the reason we went to the Super Bowl because he was effective in the playoffs. I liked him when was here but we parted ways with him at the right time.

James was a workhorse for the Cards. He's the first Cardinal RB to have over 300 carries and gain a 1000 yards in back to back seasons since OJ Anderson 1980-81. His best attribute was being able to make the first guy miss right as he took the handoff and make 3.5 yards out of nothing.

It was a brilliant idea to bench James for Timmy Butterfingers especially after TH ran for 109 against the Rams. Too bad Tim averaged 17.5 yards per game after that.

What a crazy football team we follow.
 

conraddobler

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Clayton is right, Skelton was horrible, but he wasn't throwing it to the other team and he's famous for starting out slow and being streaky later on.

Whiz lost patience, I understand that, the missing of Fitz was horrible but that's like trying to adjust a players swing while they are batting, it's too late for all that crap now, the live bullets are flying.

I'm all for getting better QB's on the field if we have one, we don't, so Whiz can have a Coke and a smile and $#% #%@ *&.

He's responsible for this crap, has been for a long time, I'd like to bench his ass.
 

Crazy Canuck

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Clayton is right, Skelton was horrible, but he wasn't throwing it to the other team and he's famous for starting out slow and being streaky later on.
Whiz lost patience, I understand that, the missing of Fitz was horrible but that's like trying to adjust a players swing while they are batting, it's too late for all that crap now, the live bullets are flying.

I'm all for getting better QB's on the field if we have one, we don't, so Whiz can have a Coke and a smile and $#% #%@ *&.

He's responsible for this crap, has been for a long time, I'd like to bench his ass.

Once upon a time...
 

machgman

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OK, we all know how Kurt Warner retired with lots of yardage passed for and tons of completions, awards galore, and one Super Bowl victory plus being named the Super Bowl MVP. But when you keep in mind how raw and undeveloped Warner was coming out of college from a very small school, we all know he would never even have gotten on look much less a second one from Whisenhut. Not every QB can hit the field executing like a ten year vet in his first or second, or third year, but with the Cards under Whisenhut, QBs come here to have their careers killed or be DOA if their are rookies or second or third guys.

If Whisenhut got ahold of Kurt Warner when Warner graduated from college ball, Whisenhut would have made sure that the only career Warner had was to join the grocery clerks union and have a career in selling groceries.

Remember, Lindley had a completion career average of 55% in college. He was 9 for 20 last week. Let's see if he can show us that he has overcome his ingrained accuracy problems in the Rams game. If not, it will be ugly when Whisenhut dumps the blame on Lindley.
 

WildBB

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Once again, Coach Whisenhunt's choices for, (and use of), quarterbacks has been bizarre. His desperate move to dump Skelton for Lindley, (during a game), and without being necessitated by injury, has once again confirmed to football people, that this is NOT a destination choice for franchise QB's.

This has been a trademark with him for his entire tenure as a head coach in the NFL. He is, (without a doubt), the most unfriendly QB handler in the entire coaching realm of the NFL during his time as a HC. It is no wonder why Arizona has had such a hard time getting a 'valued' quarterback to choose coming here to play. It is a 'death-nell' sentense for the career of any QB who chooses to come here in free agency.

Examine the facts. No highly valued QB has chosen to come to Az. Even Kurt Warner, (although he was a Denny Green selection), was not 'valued' by anyone in the league when he came here. Everyone in professional football, (except Warner himself), was of the opinion that he was finished as a starting caliber QB in the NFL at the time. Yes, other highly valued QB's have chosen to flirt with our FO during free agency, but none of those seriously considered Az. as the place be as a starting QB. They simply used our franchise's desire to land a top drawer QB in order to up their 'ante' in the free agency sweepstakes, (always choosing to go elsewhere), and they still do so. Prior to Whiz coming here, this was the LAST choice of valued QB's in the entire league.

Add to that, Whiz has not exactly turned this franchise into 'the destination stop' of the NFL for ANY free agents, (much less a franchise QB). First, there was his handling of the Leinart/Warner situation. His obvious dislike of Matt Leinart led him to platoon the two, (a situation that has NEVER been successful in the NFL). While that ploy has at times shown a positive temporary outcome in game performance, (as it did with Leinart/Warner), it has ALWAYS been detrimental to the welfare of the team in the long run.
You keep saying Whis this Whis that, but you don't put any onus on the FO which also make key personell decisions. Like NOT going after any of the elite free agent OG's this past offseason. Some of them could have even outplayed Batiste at LT I'm pretty sure.

Then you talk about Leinart/Warner, it's ancient history. It turned out as a SB appearance. I'd say it worked out for the best. You should know even though Leinart wasn't Whis' guy that there was expectations to play him within the org. being they had a lot vested in him. Even though he wasn't showing that he deserved that shot.

Finally with a guy like P. Manning, he was wooed with a better situation in Denver (friends, better line, FO connections) not supposedly any distaste for Whis' handling of QB's. Most agree that it would have been conveyed that plenty of latitude would have been granted a QB the caliber of P. Manning.
 

CtCardinals78

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I find it ironic that Whisenhunt has such impatience with players he picked when they make mistakes, but has more than enough patience for the cronies he hand picked when they screw up week after week, year after year (Grimm, Miller).
 

Duckjake

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You keep saying Whis this Whis that, but you don't put any onus on the FO which also make key personell decisions. Like NOT going after any of the elite free agent OG's this past offseason. Some of them could have even outplayed Batiste at LT I'm pretty sure.

Then you talk about Leinart/Warner, it's ancient history. It turned out as a SB appearance. I'd say it worked out for the best. You should know even though Leinart wasn't Whis' guy that there was expectations to play him within the org. being they had a lot vested in him. Even though he wasn't showing that he deserved that shot.

Finally with a guy like P. Manning, he was wooed with a better situation in Denver (friends, better line, FO connections) not supposedly any distaste for Whis' handling of QB's. Most agree that it would have been conveyed that plenty of latitude would have been granted a QB the caliber of P. Manning.

We don't really know who is responsible for getting players. I highly doubt though that the Cards front office just goes out and signs players without any input from the coaching staff. "Hey Coach here's an OLB." "But he's a 4-3 OLB!"s I also doubt they ignore the coaching staff when told what positions the team needs to fill.

That would be crazy. However, given how many of the Cards free agent signings have turned out maybe that is how they do it.
 

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