Thunder @ Suns game thread 3-2-18

[JCSunsfan]

It's an aged old question drafting based on need or best player available. Sometimes they are intertwined like when we drafted Jackson. I think that will probably be the case this year. Besides, bpa is a little overrated because we are dealing with "one and done" players mostly. Doncic is a little more proven because of his experience in europe.

My take is go bpa when it's obvious. If it's a close call then fill a need on the team. This draft though I think you have to go with a big because they are the hardest to aquire. If you don't draft a quality big chances are you'll never get one in free agency or trade.

This is my thought as well. Rarely is the BPA obvious at any given point in the draft. But if it is draft the BPA. Otherwise draft the player that fills a need among fairly evenly rated players.

When you draft, say a 2 guard for the Suns right now, you limit your ability to develop that player. Or you trade your present starter, but if you do it risky because rookies can be unpredictable.

The only reason the Suns have any business drafting Doncic is if they 100% believe he can play the point and he will be better than Payton. You too many other players at a position of need who also could easily end up being better players.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's an aged old question drafting based on need or best player available. Sometimes they are intertwined like when we drafted Jackson. I think that will probably be the case this year. Besides, bpa is a little overrated because we are dealing with "one and done" players mostly. Doncic is a little more proven because of his experience in europe.

My take is go bpa when it's obvious. If it's a close call then fill a need on the team. This draft though I think you have to go with a big because they are the hardest to aquire. If you don't draft a quality big chances are you'll never get one in free agency or trade.

If it’s equal value go for what’s you need otherwise ALWAYS go BPA. This is basketball. There are only 5 guys in the court at any one time. That means the more talented a player the more impact they can make in a game. Other than quarterback, in football no one player can typically come in and lift an entire squad. Similarly with baseball. Hockey might be the closest approximation of the value of a single player on an entire team’s fortunes.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This draft though I think you have to go with a big because they are the hardest to aquire. If you don't draft a quality big chances are you'll never get one in free agency or trade.

I don’t think that’s true anymore. See Nurkic. See boogie cousens. See Al Horford. See Aldridge, Bosh, griffin. Ibaka (twice), the polish hammer (twice), markieff. Both Lopez brothers. If rumors are to be believed Gordon is likely available and Drummond has been on and off trade rumors for years.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well, I don't trust the Suns to solve the problem of no lead Center through trades and free agency. A GM who is not still learning on the job, perhaps. You have a Point Guard now with a lot of skills. Draft a good big man to cover the post. I think our "leaders" need to follow the KISS approach. Keep it simple for them. Have they shown any sign of elevating us to a winning team? A few good moves here and there, but what are the results? Tanking and hoping.

I understand your mistrust. That’s appropriate. However following your line of reasoning would result in drafting Bowie over Jordan.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But like I'm saying...BPA is a little murky when players have very little college experience. Then what about when we consider which player has more upside or a higher ceiling? It gets even more murky.

If the Celtics didn't take Tatum who was bpa last draft? Jackson or Tatum? Hmm. Which player would fit better with the Suns...which has the higher ceiling? Does a higher ceiling make a player bpa or who is better at the moment? It's not as clear cut as one would hope.

Certainly not to us. But we don’t have access to the information the decsionmakers possess and we aren’t paid to figure it out. That’s what the front office is supposed to be good at. Judging relative talent.

 

[pokerface]

I don’t think that’s true anymore. See Nurkic. See boogie cousens. See Al Horford. See Aldridge, Bosh, griffin. Ibaka (twice), the polish hammer (twice), markieff. Both Lopez brothers. If rumors are to be believed Gordon is likely available and Drummond has been on and off trade rumors for years.

Yeah but when was the last quality "B level" big we've aquired Ouchie? As far as center the suns have never had an "A level" one. You want to bring up Cousins but his situation acting like a headcase plus his contract almost up and wanting max money dropped his value.

 

[pokerface]

Certainly not to us. But we don’t have access to the information the decsionmakers possess and we aren’t paid to figure it out. That’s what the front office is supposed to be good at. Judging relative talent.

True...up to a point. But in some ways they are almost in the dark as much as we are. With players being so young with little college experience it's still a crap shoot. Plus with constant media and internet nowadays fans are more informed than they ever used to be.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

True...up to a point. But in some ways they are almost in the dark as much as we are. With players being so young with little college experience it's still a crap shoot. Plus with constant media and internet nowadays fans are more informed than they ever used to be.

Or at least we believe we are. Remember a LOT of what we believe we “know” is colored by highlight videos.

 

[leclerc]

Officials bringing OKC back in the third. Slapping Booker on the jumpshot and allowing illegal screens by Adams. Small bump by Chriss results in a T... Just because we're not supposed to beat these "superstars".

 

[leclerc]

Jackson is looking so good these days. So is Booker. Add Payton, Bender, Warren and a top rookie and we could win some games next year.

Hope I didn't say the same thing last year!

 

[BC867]

Jackson is looking so good these days. So is Booker. Add Payton, Bender, Warren and a top rookie and we could win some games next year.

Hope I didn't say the same thing last year!

You included Bender. What has he done this season to justify it? His potential is one of confusion. A Guard in the body of a skinny 7-footer. Afraid to shoot. Not a rebounder. That is a lot to overcome even if he puts on 30 lbs. -- of muscle -- over the summer.

I wouldn't call his presence a given based upon that. And I certainly wouldn't lead him to believe that a job at Power Forward or Center is his to lose. The results are that he had chances and has already lost it.

 

[Hoop Head]

You included Bender. What has he done this season to justify it? His potential is one of confusion. A Guard in the body of a skinny 7-footer. Afraid to shoot. Not a rebounder. That is a lot to overcome even if he puts on 30 lbs. -- of muscle -- over the summer.

I wouldn't call his presence a given based upon that. And I certainly wouldn't lead him to believe that a job at Power Forward or Center is his to lose. The results are that he had chances and has already lost it.

Bender is still very young. He's the 14th youngest player in the league this season. It's too early to give up on him. Perhaps a light comes on for him and stays on because we've seen what he can do when that light is on but unfortunately it hasn't stayed on for consecutive games. He needs to build his confidence this summer. I think he should be sent to the Summer League team with any other rookies that are drafted because even though he'll be going into his 3rd year he's still very young and could use the seasoning. Perhaps playing there will help build his confidence also to kick off the offseason.

 

[leclerc]

To be clear:
1. Booker and Jackson (core #timeline)
2. All others. The four I mentioned have the most potential to contribute going forward. Would be nice if Ulis and Chriss forced their way into the conversation.

Bender has improved and he's still young. I haven't ruled him out of being a starter for us. He is now because we stink but hopefully he'll take more steps next year as well.

We'll see. The big thing is Booker AND Jackson. Not just Book.

 

[Hoop Head]

Bender has an advantage over Chriss going forward in being a 7 footer which allows him to play either frontcourt position, PF or C and even SF. That will help him get on the court more even if he falls out of the rotation because of player acquisitions this summer. Chriss can't really play anything other than PF though so if the Suns add a more polished PF this summer that could spell trouble for Chriss going forward. That's probably one of the reasons Gambo has said the Suns will look to move him this offseason. They need to upgrade the PF position this offseason and only one of them will be the backup and with Bender's versatility he's a little more valuable. Hopefully they both start stepping up through the remainder of the year. I think they could regret moving one of them this summer unless they get a really good return. They could blossom elsewhere or they could fizzle out, knowing the Suns luck though they'd probably step up as soon as they're off the team.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Bender has an advantage over Chriss going forward in being a 7 footer which allows him to play either frontcourt position, PF or C and even SF. That will help him get on the court more even if he falls out of the rotation because of player acquisitions this summer. Chriss can't really play anything other than PF though so if the Suns add a more polished PF this summer that could spell trouble for Chriss going forward. That's probably one of the reasons Gambo has said the Suns will look to move him this offseason. They need to upgrade the PF position this offseason and only one of them will be the backup and with Bender's versatility he's a little more valuable. Hopefully they both start stepping up through the remainder of the year. I think they could regret moving one of them this summer unless they get a really good return. They could blossom elsewhere or they could fizzle out, knowing the Suns luck though they'd probably step up as soon as they're off the team.

I’ve been saying since they were drafted that Bender will be a center in the long run. I don’t think he has any business stepping onto the court as a small forward. Once he has the strength to deal with big men he will be a very valuable center in the long run and will also be able to play PF depending on the lineup.

 

[Hoop Head]

I’ve been saying since they were drafted that Bender will be a center in the long run. I don’t think he has any business stepping onto the court as a small forward. Once he has the strength to deal with big men he will be a very valuable center in the long run and will also be able to play PF depending on the lineup.

He looked good as a high post Center earlier this year. I could see a coach using him as a SF in a large lineup, kind of like how LA used to play Bynum, Gasol, and Odom together in their frontcourt. A lineup of Ayton, Chriss, and Bender in the frontcourt with Jackson and Booker in the backcourt would be huge. Jackson can play some SG and Booker can play some PG, which would allow them to play against a team like Milwaukee who are super long with Maker, Parker, Giannis, Middleton, and Brogdan.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bender is still very young. He's the 14th youngest player in the league this season. It's too early to give up on him. Perhaps a light comes on for him and stays on because we've seen what he can do when that light is on but unfortunately it hasn't stayed on for consecutive games. He needs to build his confidence this summer. I think he should be sent to the Summer League team with any other rookies that are drafted because even though he'll be going into his 3rd year he's still very young and could use the seasoning. Perhaps playing there will help build his confidence also to kick off the offseason.

I am absolutely convinced the light will come on for Bender. Its there.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He looked good as a high post Center earlier this year. I could see a coach using him as a SF in a large lineup, kind of like how LA used to play Bynum, Gasol, and Odom together in their frontcourt. A lineup of Ayton, Chriss, and Bender in the frontcourt with Jackson and Booker in the backcourt would be huge. Jackson can play some SG and Booker can play some PG, which would allow them to play against a team like Milwaukee who are super long with Maker, Parker, Giannis, Middleton, and Brogdan.

Odom’s position in the NBA was typically SF. Bender doesn’t have near the mobility that Odom had and he may very well slow down as he gains weight as well.

 

[Hoop Head]

I am absolutely convinced the light will come on for Bender. Its there.

I'm pretty close to the same on that. He has all of the tools to be a really good player but it's a matter of applying all of his skills. I'm a little worried that he'll end up like Zarko though. If he takes a vicious shot like Fortson gave him then all bets are off. Confidence seems to be his biggest issue and if that something like that happens before he can turn the light on, that'll be it for him. We have 3 meetings with the Warriors left this season, keep him away from Zaza. I'd hate to see something like that happen again.

 

[SirStefan32]

Bender is frustrating to watch, but the things that frustrate me are the things that can be fixed.

 

[elindholm]

Bender is frustrating to watch, but the things that frustrate me are the things that can be fixed.

That's how I feel about Chriss.

 

[SirStefan32]

That's how I feel about Chriss.

I hope we are both right.

 

[leclerc]

I also liked Bender as a center (when Booker was out?). He put some moves on Gobert.

EJ observed that he dribbles to a pass too often instead of going to the hole. I'm confident he'll fix that. Get him with a big man coach in the summer and send him to summer league. Repetitions.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I hope we are both right.

I think one of the Suns problems is that they have both of them. It might be necessary to commit to one and move the other for full development to occur.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I also liked Bender as a center (when Booker was out?). He put some moves on Gobert.

EJ observed that he dribbles to a pass too often instead of going to the hole. I'm confident he'll fix that. Get him with a big man coach in the summer and send him to summer league. Repetitions.

Its that European game vs nba game.