Thunder @ Suns game thread 3-2-18

[pokerface]

Payton averaging 17 points, 7.8 rebounds, 7.5 assists so far as a Sun. Wish he was hitting better from 3 and his turnover rate is merely average.

Overall he's been pretty freakin good.

Cut his hair and he'd probably put up 24-10-10.

Kidding.

Obstructed vision is the new "edge".

 

[JS22]

But his basketball IQ is unmeasurable!!!

DON'T FORGET, HE WAS A +3!!!!!!!!!!!

Bender is infuriating. He has those "flash" games where you can see how good he COULD be. Then he has games like tonight, where he takes 1 shot in 37 minutes.

 

[Hoop Head]

At the end of the game Westbrook told Booker to demand greatness out of his teammates. I know Tom & Tom were talking about their exchange at the end, it was friendly though, so it's interesting to find out what was said. Booker is definitely the star of this team and hopefully he can grow into a quality leader with time. it's a lot to ask of a 21 year old kid but he seems willing to accept that role, which is big. The Suns haven't had a true leader on the court since Nash was here.

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[Mainstreet]

Payton averaging 17 points, 7.8 rebounds, 7.5 assists so far as a Sun. Wish he was hitting better from 3 and his turnover rate is merely average.

Overall he's been pretty freakin good.

Cut his hair and he'd probably put up 24-10-10.

Kidding.

Maybe not by much though.

 

[Mainstreet]

As a Suns fan I was oooooing and aaaaing at that dunk. Westbrook is a great player and it is nice to have one of those in Booker and maybe even two with Jackson.

I hoping to see more of the lineup with Payton, Booker, JJ, Warren and Len. I know we like our 4s to be stretch 4s, but Warren is so great around the basket. He is showing some more ability to play the NBA 4s now - the Davis/Townes of the game.

And perhaps a third with Payton before going into the draft, trades and free agency.

Booker is already elite and Jackson is on his heals. It would be great to have that third piece already.

 

[Suns_fan69]

If you have a 24 year old you feel will be a good long term pg, why draft another?

Strongly disagree. This leads to Bowie over MJ because they had Drexler. Gotta go best player available, unless you have a superstar there. Payton is not there. This isn't an endorsement for Doncic btw, just saying that best player available at this point makes the most sense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Strongly disagree. This leads to Bowie over MJ because they had Drexler. Gotta go best player available, unless you have a superstar there. Payton is not there. This isn't an endorsement for Doncic btw, just saying that best player available at this point makes the most sense.

I agree. You always take the best talent possible. You can turn that into what you need. The Jordan-Bowie example is the very best lesson in this ever taught.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Strongly disagree. This leads to Bowie over MJ because they had Drexler. Gotta go best player available, unless you have a superstar there. Payton is not there. This isn't an endorsement for Doncic btw, just saying that best player available at this point makes the most sense.

Or drafting KJ when you have Mark Price, and then end up trading him away for less than value because you can't use two pg's and other teams know it?

If you draft a player, in that range, in a good draft like this, you better be reasonably sure that the drafted player will beat out your present starter (at least eventually) and be prepared to trade said starter.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Or drafting KJ when you have Mark Price, and then end up trading him away for less than value because you can't use two pg's and other teams know it?

If you draft a player, in that range, in a good draft like this, you better be reasonably sure that the drafted player will beat out your present starter (at least eventually) and be prepared to trade said starter.

Less than value? They packaged kj with a 1st round pick and two veterans for Larry nance to round out the lone missing element in their lineup. That is EXACTLY why you draft the best player. They could have taken polynice, mckey or Horace Grant instead I guess but at the time trading in kj for an already developed nance for a playoff ready team was the right move. And if not for Jordan may have given that team a shot at a championship.

 

[Folster]

Does anybody think Westbrook could become available next year if PG leaves? Obviously Melo would not be brought back. I could see them starting over with no real way to build a team around Westbrook and his big contract.

It would take a lot to get him for sure, but we have the assets. We could give our 2018 pick, 2018 Miami pick and 2021 Miami pick. Three first rounders?

Westbrook, Booker, Jackson, ?, ?.

Could Westbrook and Booker coexist in the same backcourt?

 

[Phrazbit]

Does anybody think Westbrook could become available next year if PG leaves? Obviously Melo would not be brought back. I could see them starting over with no real way to build a team around Westbrook and his big contract.

It would take a lot to get him for sure, but we have the assets. We could give our 2018 pick, 2018 Miami pick and 2021 Miami pick. Three first rounders?

Westbrook, Booker, Jackson, ?, ?.

Could Westbrook and Booker coexist in the same backcourt?

I don't think Westbrook will be made available, but, hypothetically speaking, I do think he and Booker would be fine. Westbrook and Durant worked great together, and while Durant wasn't in the back court, he and Booker score from similar areas of the court and both like the ball in their hands.

And yes, while I like Payton, there is no way I'm ignoring a talent like Young just because Payton is around. Having too much talent at one spot is way less of a problem than passing up on a star because you had something serviceable in place.

 

[hsandhu]

I agree. You always take the best talent possible. You can turn that into what you need. The Jordan-Bowie example is the very best lesson in this ever taught.

Yeah, obviously who wouldn't agree with that?

However, think it's ridiculous to use that example with doncic as jordan! (not directed at you, you didn't bring it up) And other top five picks as bowie.

Talent is close enough in top 5, paytons good play can lead to going big instead of euro hype.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, obviously who wouldn't agree with that?

However, think it's ridiculous to use that example with doncic as jordan! (not directed at you, you didn't bring it up) And other top five picks as bowie.

Talent is close enough in top 5, paytons good play can lead to going big instead of euro hype.

Thank you for the caveat because I am not saying doncic is Jordan. Jordan’s just the best example of take talent over everything else.

I’m still on the ayton wagon - even more so after his 26-20 game today. But there’s something to be said for so many experts keeping doncic at #1. So I’m keeping my mind open to that.

 

[SirStefan32]

Thank you for the caveat because I am not saying doncic is Jordan. Jordan’s just the best example of take talent over everything else.

I’m still on the ayton wagon - even more so after his 26-20 game today. But there’s something to be said for so many experts keeping doncic at #1. So I’m keeping my mind open to that.

I agree. There is something about Doncic that's fascinating, but I really think Ayton has a higher floor, and I'd much rather play it safe. Doncic may have a higher ceiling if everything goes right, but I just don't think how Ayton doesn't become a 16 and 10 player, at the very least.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I agree. There is something about Doncic that's fascinating, but I really think Ayton has a higher floor, and I'd much rather play it safe. Doncic may have a higher ceiling if everything goes right, but I just don't think how Ayton doesn't become a 16 and 10 player, at the very least.

To be fair I have a hard time seeing Doncic being anything less than 16/5/5. Though I have a strong feeling he will be much better than that.

 

[BC867]

And yes, while I like Payton, there is no way I'm ignoring a talent like Young just because Payton is around. Having too much talent at one spot is way less of a problem than passing up on a star because you had something serviceable in place.

There's something I don't understand about that. Prior to Payton's arrival, we needed a lead Point Guard and a solid Center. Fill either position with your top draft pick and see what you can do about the other. It wouldn't matter which one was filled first in the draft.

But now that Payton is showing skills and stats as a true Point Guard, why would we draft another Point Guard with our first pick, when our strongest need is now at Center? Draft a Center and we would have filled our two biggest needs. Our greatest hope.

Is there anyone who still thinks that either Len, Bender or one of our other Power Forwards can fill the role of lead Center?

If you just got a good deal on a 2-year old Corvette and your wife drives the family SUV that is getting old, would you say, "I'm getting a second 'Vette. Or would you say, "I have the 'Vette, now we need to replace the SUV."?

Well, we now have a new Point Guard who is a good facilitator and rebounder and can step up and score when needed. Why in the world would we disregard our need at Center with our top pick? I just don't get it. In some instances, I can see where BPA would be a good philosophy. But not in our case. If any of you guys answer, "BPA always", please include in your response how we are going to get a sold, role playing Center.

Are we so locked into the Suns, throughout most of their history, being a backcourt heavy team?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

There's something I don't understand about that. Prior to Payton's arrival, we needed a lead Point Guard and a solid Center. Fill either position with your top draft pick and see what you can do about the other. It wouldn't matter which one was filled first in the draft.

But now that Payton is showing skills and stats as a true Point Guard, why would we draft another Point Guard with our first pick, when our strongest need is now at Center? Draft a Center and we would have filled our two biggest needs. Our greatest hope.

Is there anyone who still thinks that either Len, Bender or one of our other Power Forwards can fill the role of lead Center?

If you just got a good deal on a 2-year old Corvette and your wife drives the family SUV that is getting old, would you say, "I'm getting a second 'Vette. Or would you say, "I have the 'Vette, now we need to replace the SUV."?

Well, we now have a new Point Guard who is a good facilitator and rebounder and can step up and score when needed. Why in the world would we disregard our need at Center with our top pick? I just don't get it. In some instances, I can see where BPA would be a good philosophy. But not in our case. If any of you guys answer, "BPA always", please include in your response how we are going to get a sold, role playing Center.

Are we so locked into the Suns, throughout most of their history, being a backcourt heavy team?

You don't draft based on need, especially high in the draft. You draft the best prospect available and use trades and free agency to fill holes and even things out. If the best prospect on the board is Trae Young or Doncic than we should draft that player. Payton is solid, but he is not so good that we should avoid possibly upgrading him through the draft if that is the position of the best player available.

 

[BC867]

You don't draft based on need, especially high in the draft. You draft the best prospect available and use trades and free agency to fill holes and even things out. If the best prospect on the board is Trae Young or Doncic than we should draft that player. Payton is solid, but he is not so good that we should avoid possibly upgrading him through the draft if that is the position of the best player available.

Well, I don't trust the Suns to solve the problem of no lead Center through trades and free agency. A GM who is not still learning on the job, perhaps. You have a Point Guard now with a lot of skills. Draft a good big man to cover the post. I think our "leaders" need to follow the KISS approach. Keep it simple for them. Have they shown any sign of elevating us to a winning team? A few good moves here and there, but what are the results? Tanking and hoping.

 

[pokerface]

It's an aged old question drafting based on need or best player available. Sometimes they are intertwined like when we drafted Jackson. I think that will probably be the case this year. Besides, bpa is a little overrated because we are dealing with "one and done" players mostly. Doncic is a little more proven because of his experience in europe.

My take is go bpa when it's obvious. If it's a close call then fill a need on the team. This draft though I think you have to go with a big because they are the hardest to aquire. If you don't draft a quality big chances are you'll never get one in free agency or trade.

 

[BC867]

It's an aged old question drafting based on need or best player available. Sometimes they are intertwined like when we drafted Jackson. I think that will probably be the case this year. Besides, bpa is a little overrated because we are dealing with "one and done" players mostly. Doncic is a little more proven because of his experience in europe.

My take is go bpa when it's obvious. If it's a close call then fill a need on the team. This draft though I think you have to go with a big because they are the hardest to aquire. If you don't draft a quality big chances are you'll never get one in free agency or trade.

Thank you, man. Seeing you post that gives me cause for hope.

 

[pokerface]

Thank you, man. Seeing you post that gives me cause for hope.

Seems like we're on the same page on this one.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's an aged old question drafting based on need or best player available. Sometimes they are intertwined like when we drafted Jackson. I think that will probably be the case this year. Besides, bpa is a little overrated because we are dealing with "one and done" players mostly. Doncic is a little more proven because of his experience in europe.

My take is go bpa when it's obvious. If it's a close call then fill a need on the team. This draft though I think you have to go with a big because they are the hardest to aquire. If you don't draft a quality big chances are you'll never get one in free agency or trade.

As long as the Suns aren't thinking "I like so and so more, but lets take this guy because he also fits a need" before drafting a player. Than I am fine with who they pick regardless of their position. Need should be a secondary reason for the pick you make, not the primary.

 

[pokerface]

As long as the Suns aren't thinking "I like so and so more, but lets take this guy because he also fits a need" before drafting a player. Than I am fine with who they pick regardless of their position. Need should be a secondary reason for the pick you make, not the primary.

But like I'm saying...BPA is a little murky when players have very little college experience. Then what about when we consider which player has more upside or a higher ceiling? It gets even more murky.

If the Celtics didn't take Tatum who was bpa last draft? Jackson or Tatum? Hmm. Which player would fit better with the Suns...which has the higher ceiling? Does a higher ceiling make a player bpa or who is better at the moment? It's not as clear cut as one would hope.

 

[Phrazbit]

There's something I don't understand about that. Prior to Payton's arrival, we needed a lead Point Guard and a solid Center. Fill either position with your top draft pick and see what you can do about the other. It wouldn't matter which one was filled first in the draft.

But now that Payton is showing skills and stats as a true Point Guard, why would we draft another Point Guard with our first pick, when our strongest need is now at Center? Draft a Center and we would have filled our two biggest needs. Our greatest hope.

Is there anyone who still thinks that either Len, Bender or one of our other Power Forwards can fill the role of lead Center?

If you just got a good deal on a 2-year old Corvette and your wife drives the family SUV that is getting old, would you say, "I'm getting a second 'Vette. Or would you say, "I have the 'Vette, now we need to replace the SUV."?

Well, we now have a new Point Guard who is a good facilitator and rebounder and can step up and score when needed. Why in the world would we disregard our need at Center with our top pick? I just don't get it. In some instances, I can see where BPA would be a good philosophy. But not in our case. If any of you guys answer, "BPA always", please include in your response how we are going to get a sold, role playing Center.

Are we so locked into the Suns, throughout most of their history, being a backcourt heavy team?

Backcourt heavy teams are dominating the NBA right now... but even ignoring that...

When you're drafting at the top of the draft you take the best talent you see on the board, regardless of position.

Having a merely adequate PG in Gordon should not even remotely give you pause if you think a potential superstar is on the board at the same position, even if you have a gaping hole elsewhere. Honestly, I don't see how this is even a question. I'm not saying I'd pass on Ayton, IMO, he is the top pick, no question asked, but it is not because of his position, but because of his obvious talent. You don't reach for "need", ever, especially when there is a player who is obviously immensely talented sitting there. That is how crap teams perpetually stay crappy.

 

[Errntknght]

A clear cut BPA is one thing, if it's not clear fill a need, especially a crying need. Len is our best big, and it's not clear that Bender or Chriss will surpass him - that is a wildly weeping need. Another factor is that I want McD drafting a big when there is an obvious choice available, as might well be the case this draft for us.