Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes?

[Chaplin]

Which was my point. That religion is extreme in practice compared to most religions and if she had problems with it you could see how easily it could play into marital problems.

Ofcourse this all speculation until she makes a statement.

That is simply not true Daren. What is more extreme about Scientology that isn't as extreme in Catholicism? Or Baptist? Or Islam? I don't blame you for buying into the hate, as a lot of people here are obviously in that boat. Like I said, I was like you guys before I knew them all, and I was dead wrong in what I thought.

If she had a problem with it, that's fine. Tom Cruise is one of the most extreme and public examples of the religion. But you'll be hard pressed to find a real every-day Scientologist who will argue with someone about this because no matter how much proof they provide about the lack of "nutjobs" in the religion, you aren't going to believe it.

Every religion has nutjobs in it. How many people have been killed because of Scientology? How many because of Christianity? Or Islam? It's a fine line, but it's really easy to espouse hate toward a group you don't understand than to simply try to learn about them instead. Islam is a perfect real-world example of the same type of bigotry.

And I've never been pushed to learn or read or attend meetings or anything by my friends. We've discussed it, but they've never preached to me about it (I actually hate that--from all religions).

 

[Chaplin]

Hey Chap, thanks for keeping it cool and civil. I was purposefully not trying to insult your friends--they are likely not in positions of power within the 'church'. Blind religious fervor baffles me in ANY religion, but especially in Scientology. I cannot see how anyone can accept Scientology as real, but people make all kinds of decisions I can't understand in real life, so I can see that regular people can buy into it without knowing all of the stuff that goes on. And I'm sorry, but Scientology isn't just some misunderstood religion that never does anything that anyone dares say about it. Sure, there are probably simple differences in philosophy and opinion, like you talk about in the medical field, but there is way, way, WAY too much information out there, directly from people that have been deep in the organization, to just say that it's all propaganda. They have some extremely radical and awful practices, like shunning family members, trying to almost completely control a person's will in documented cases, kidnapping, and others. It has happened unless you want to discredit every single Scientologist that has ever told secrets.

Oh, and on Hubbard's part, he didn't say that when Scientology was already around. He said that before he ever created Scientology. I mean, I already feel like a lot of religion out there is fraudulent, but when a guy openly says the best way to make money is to create a religion, and then goes on and does it...AND makes bucket loads of money off of it, you can't possibly believe it is anything but a sham. Especially given the massive amounts of money you have to put in to 'progress' in the religion. Contrary to what you say, you don't have to pay a bunch of money to really get into organized religion.

I don't expect you to change your tune, though, so I think we can just agree to disagree

Definitely agree to disagree. But I have one question for you: What do you think Scientology is? From what I have found by hanging out with them and by reading the documentation I've read, there is nothing different about them other than they do not worship every Sunday morning. There is no weekly prayer time or anything like that. If they choose to go into the church (mostly for counseling -- which is what "auditing" actually is), it's on their own time. Yes, it costs a lot of money (my biggest issue with it), but it's actually got very good intentions that non-Scientologists don't understand or want to learn about.

Again, it's a moral code that has nothing to do with Aliens or going to other planets. That is a made-up lie designed to be ammunition for those against the religion.

Sorry, I know I wasn't supposed to be posting anymore on this... So I'll end it with these last few posts. Good discussion, Stout. Whether it's movies or anything else, always good to go back and forth with you.

 

[Chaplin]

They just choose to follow crazy nutjobs............

Um, in general, you can't in one breath say they're all nutjobs and turn around and amend your statement to say they choose to follow nutjobs. Come on now.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm kind of surprised that you know 50 plus Scientologists and all you've done is glance at their reading materials. ALL of the Scientologists I've known are forever haranguing people to go in and get audited or sit through the lectures. I've seen a lot of friendships fizzle out because the Scientologists were so adamant about the non-Scientologists joining up. (Or are these people you work with?)

You must have a heck of a strong will. Or something.

Nope, I've worked with them, hung out with them... Never, ever have they pushed it on me. There's a difference between having a strong will and them never even pushing it on me in the first place. Hell, I'm sure some of them don't even realize I'm NOT a Scientologist!

 

[BigRedRage]

lol @ defending a religion created by a science fiction writer.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Contrary to what you say, you don't have to pay a bunch of money to really get into organized religion.

yeah... i thought this was the strangest part of Chap's response. you can be extremely Jewish/Catholic and not pay a dime.

Chap, I'm curious to hear you elaborate on what you mean by it's expensive to take part in any religion.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Um, in general, you can't in one breath say they're all nutjobs and turn around and amend your statement to say they choose to follow nutjobs. Come on now.

I never said they were nutjobs ... but they probably are to some degree

Just to get through the jargon you are probably a little out there ....... at least until you pass preclear status and go through your audits and blah, blah

Just kooky stuff

I don't know 50-75 people that I would discuss their religious beliefs with ... let alone that number of any one group

There is plenty out there to suggest that it's pretty nut job - despite the heavy efforts of leadership to suppress any criticism of them, law suits, etc

 

[Chaplin]

yeah... i thought this was the strangest part of Chap's response. you can be extremely Jewish/Catholic and not pay a dime.

Chap, I'm curious to hear you elaborate on what you mean by it's expensive to take part in any religion.

I was referring to the offering plate stuff. You don't have to do it, but I've known people that feel obligated to. Those churches don't build themselves.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If they choose to go into the church (mostly for counseling -- which is what "auditing" actually is), it's on their own time. Yes, it costs a lot of money (my biggest issue with it), but it's actually got very good intentions that non-Scientologists don't understand or want to learn about.

Again, it's a moral code that has nothing to do with Aliens or going to other planets.

i guess this is where people see it as a fake religion. By your own admission it costs "a lot" of money to practice... or even to go into Church. Do you know how much it cost to go into my old synagogue? Uh... nothing. And on high holidays, it cost a little dough to get in, but it wasn't anything nearly prohibitive. The "very good intentions" go by the wayside for me when a "moral" code is forcing people to pay "a lot" of money in order to get religion.

that just sounds like a scam.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was referring to the offering plate stuff. You don't have to do it, but I've known people that feel obligated to. Those churches don't build themselves.

right... it's an offering plate and people give what they can... but they're not forced to and it's not incredibly expensive, as you say Scientology is. that's a huge difference IMO... and this is coming from someone who's not a fan of organized religion.

 

[Chaplin]

I never said they were nutjobs ... but they probably are to some degree

Just to get through the jargon you are probably a little out there ....... at least until you pass preclear status and go through your audits and blah, blah

Just kooky stuff

I don't know 50-75 people that I would discuss their religious beliefs with ... let alone that number of any one group

There is plenty out there to suggest that it's pretty nut job - despite the heavy efforts of leadership to suppress any criticism of them, law suits, etc

Yeah, I'm sure the Catholic leadership does nothing to try to quell all the pedophile talk--they just let it float out there, huh?

Since you are continuing with the "nutjob" line of argument, we're done. Before you inevitably start getting personal.

 

[Chaplin]

right... it's an offering plate and people give what they can... but they're not forced to and it's not incredibly expensive, as you say Scientology is. that's a huge difference IMO... and this is coming from someone who's not a fan of organized religion.

I will concede that Scientology is run more like a business than a non-profit religion. It's definitely more secular than you'd expect. Not everything costs money, although it's easy to think it all does. From what I've seen, it's more of a counseling center for life improvement and development than a religion, but I think the fact that they are considered a "religion" is because they meet the qualifications by the government, whatever those are.

 

[Chaplin]

i guess this is where people see it as a fake religion. By your own admission it costs "a lot" of money to practice... or even to go into Church. Do you know how much it cost to go into my old synagogue? Uh... nothing. And on high holidays, it cost a little dough to get in, but it wasn't anything nearly prohibitive. The "very good intentions" go by the wayside for me when a "moral" code is forcing people to pay "a lot" of money in order to get religion.

that just sounds like a scam.

See my post above. Not everything costs money there, although the media would make people believe it costs money just to walk in the door of a church.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I will concede that Scientology is run more like a business than a non-profit religion. Not everything costs money, although it's easy to think it all does. From what I've seen, it's more of a counseling center for life improvement and development than a religion, but I think the fact that they are considered a "religion" is because they meet the qualifications by the government, whatever those are.

fair enough. all I know is I went in there on a lark during a festival up by the UCB a couple months ago and the people working there freaking terrified me. They were like pod people.

 

[Chaplin]

fair enough. all I know is I went in there on a lark during a festival up by the UCB a couple months ago and the people working there freaking terrified me. They were like pod people.

I've been there a few times and had no such issues. Reminded me of Mormonism because the people that were working there wore simple uniforms (button-up shirts and slacks), but nobody approached me and asked me to buy anything and there were no weird goings-on.

I remember the first time I went there I was a little leery. But it was the same, almost like a college campus actually because there was a lot of people there.

 

[Cheesebeef]

See my post above. Not everything costs money there, although the media would make people believe it costs money just to walk in the door of a church.

chap, you can blame the media as much as you want, but you yourself said it's really expensive to practice the religion.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Yeah, I'm sure the Catholic leadership does nothing to try to quell all the pedophile talk--they just let it float out there, huh?

Since you are continuing with the "nutjob" line of argument, we're done. Before you inevitably start getting personal.

So you equate trying to suppress actual church doctrine and literature through copywrite laws, etc to be the same as pedophilia

Or are you suggesting that pedophilia is a part of the Catholic Church doctrine?

For what it's worth the leadership of the catholic church is also fairly nuts, IMO

They are just more established nuts

Not some nuevo new age cult - at least they have a niche, no other religion has it as a founding tenent to reform mental health medicine

 

[Chaplin]

chap, you can blame the media as much as you want, but you yourself said it's really expensive to practice the religion.

If you want to immerse yourself in the religion, yes, it's expensive. But I've known some people for a year and they haven't spent a dime and still practice.

 

[Covert Rain]

That is simply not true Daren. What is more extreme about Scientology that isn't as extreme in Catholicism? Or Baptist? Or Islam? I don't blame you for buying into the hate, as a lot of people here are obviously in that boat. Like I said, I was like you guys before I knew them all, and I was dead wrong in what I thought.

Chap being an ex-Catholic your statement is absolutely ridiculous. Sure there are fanatics in every religion but usually that is not the indoctrinated "norm" for the religion. When a religion teaches exclusion, has secret rituals and teaches that anybody outside your religion is not worthy and encourages you to cut ties with those outside the religion that is "cult like" behavior. When that religion teaches that to reach the highest level of spiritualness it somehow REQUIRES financial donations to gain access to that spirituality......that is the type of extremism I am referring to.

Also, please don't confuse hate with pessimism. As I stated before I have family who has converted and I love them just the same. They have confirmed for me what I already had read about the religion but it's their choice and I am OK with that.

I am not relying on media stories or hearsay. I can attest first hand how outlandish some of the practices are. I can attest for example how if you don't give what is expected of you in the Church they do in fact coming knocking at your door. I have actually been visiting my relatives house when it has happened when we were all sitting down for dinner.

AGAIN....this is not a condemnation on the people in the religion. I am sure they are very nice people. However, that doesn't mean that the religion is any less cult like in behavior.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap being an ex-Catholic your statement is absolutely ridiculous. Sure there are fanatics in every religion but usually that is not the indoctrinated "norm" for the religion. When a religion teaches exclusion, has secret rituals and teaches that anybody outside your religion is not worthy and encourages you to cut ties with those outside the religion that is "cult like" behavior. When that religion teaches that to reach the highest level of spiritualness it somehow REQUIRES financial donations to gain access to that spirituality......that is the type of extremism I am referring to.

Also, please don't confuse hate with pessimism. As I stated before I have family who has converted and I love them just the same. They have confirmed for me what I already had read about the religion but it's their choice and I am OK with that.

I am not relying on media stories or hearsay. I can attest first hand how outlandish some of the practices are. I can attest for example how if you don't give what is expected of you in the Church they do in fact coming knocking at your door. I have actually been visiting my relatives house when it has happened.

AGAIN....this is not a condemnation on the people in the religion. I am sure they are very nice people. However, that doesn't mean that the religion is any less cult like in behavior.

And I have first-hand experience that it is not "cult-like" in behavior. As a former Catholic, I absolutely believe that you have some insight into the church.

But shouldn't I be afforded the same courtesy? My friends are not in a cult and they do not display cult-like behavior. A religion is defined by the behavior of its followers.

 

[Covert Rain]

And I have first-hand experience that it is not "cult-like" in behavior. As a former Catholic, I absolutely believe that you have some insight into the church.

But shouldn't I be afforded the same courtesy? My friends are not in a cult and they do not display cult-like behavior. A religion is defined by the behavior of its followers.

Chap you do realize that it's strictly forbidden to talk about some of the cult like rituals and doctrines within the church right? Ofcourse you don't see the behavior. If your friends deny that they are lying. Sorry but they are.

You would not see this behavior unless you are fully indoctrinated and a member or have someone who is willing to tell you those types of things. I have been told specifically about some of the rituals they perform and some of the teachings they are forbidden to reveal to "outsiders". You can also do your own research for members who have left the church.

I can understand the motivation for someone active in the church not to tell you everything because they are trying to honor that religion. What is the motivation for someone who is in the religion to make stuff up? Especially my own family? How do you explain the "collection" like tactics I have witnessed first hand?

That makes zero sense.

 

[ozzfloyd]

It's only Wikipedia and all...but if Scientologists believe even 10% of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

Yikes.

It sure sounds like aliens and sci-fi nuttery to me.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap you do realize that it's strictly forbidden to talk about some of the cult like rituals and doctrines within the church right? Ofcourse you don't see the behavior. If your friends deny that they are lying. Sorry but they are.

That is arrogant presumption. You have no basis for that opinion at all.

You would not see this behavior unless you are fully indoctrinated and a member or have someone who is willing to tell you those types of things. I have been told specifically about some of the rituals they perform and some of the teachings they are forbidden to reveal to "outsiders". You can also do your own research for members who have left the church.

I can understand the motivation for someone active in the church not to tell you everything because they are trying to honor that religion. What is the motivation for someone who is in the religion to make stuff up? Especially my own family? How do you explain the "collection" like tactics I have witnessed first hand?

That makes zero sense.

You're ignoring the point and coming back with generalization. Your "well, they probably haven't told you everything" argument is so out there it's not even funny. How can you know about all this stuff and I don't? What makes you an authority on Scientology? Simply because you assume there are things they don't tell non-Scientologists, no matter how close of friends they are?

What makes it even more ridiculous is the intimation that the things they don't talk about are tantamount to water torture. (Extreme, but you get the point)

Please tell me what you've witnessed "first-hand". This is the first time in the whole discussion where you've said you have some kind of first-hand experience. I genuinely would like to know.

 

[Covert Rain]

That is arrogant presumption. You have no basis for that opinion at all.

Chap...being told by someone in the Church that is EXACTLY the case is a presumption? Reading accounts of those that have been in the Church sharing their experience is presumption?

Dear Lord Chap....no pun intended.

Please tell me what you've witnessed "first-hand". This is the first time in the whole discussion where you've said you have some kind of first-hand experience. I genuinely would like to know.

Read my account of the collection tactics. I think I have been pretty clear I have been present.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap...being told by someone in the Church that is EXACTLY the case is a presumption? Reading accounts of those that have been in the Church sharing their experience is presumption?

Dear Lord Chap....no pun intended.



Read my account of the collection tactics. I think I have been pretty clear I have been present.

So you're saying that a religion coming to collect is unusual? You're a former Catholic, I'd think you'd know first-hand that that is a common theme throughout ALL religions. Sitting down to dinner and getting interrupted by someone at the door saying give me money isn't exactly a rare occurrence.

It doesn't matter though, you will be bigotted towards it no matter what. My experience allowed me to open my eyes--still not a fan of organized religion (ANY organized religion) so I won't be joining, but I tend to get a bit heated when people start talking about my friends in a bad light as if they know them.

That said, I understand your point of view. I don't agree with it and wish this hadn't devolved into name calling, but it is what it is. Talking about religion does that I guess.