Top 7 Players in the NBA Draft

[Cheesebeef]

Exactly.

It's one thing to read, it's another to COMPREHEND what is being said. That includes context but also other things. He's never been a guy who is purported to be a "traditional" GM, or what a GM is thought to be. That's what he said.

Is it really that hard to understand that, at the time, Trevor Buckstein was also made co-GM? JJ is the player guy, Buckstein the Analytics guy. Not that hard to understand.

It is hard to understand because the last paragraph is factually wrong. Buckstein was NEVER the analytics guy. He was a contract and cap “savant” (which on its face seems ridiculous if he was one of the geniuses who gave Brandon Knight his big extension). Doesn’t do analytics... and apparently, Jones doesn’t feel the need to log the hours on the computer and do it either.

It’s really tough to have a discussion when people don’t even have a rudimentary command of the facts inside the discussion. Again, here’s the article about our FO dysfunction with Jones QUOTED as saying EXACTLY what Buckstein does and it ain’t analytics.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26088024/inside-phoenix-suns-messy-dysfunctional-front-office

“Sarver turned to not one man, but two: Jones, who retired from a 14-year playing career in 2017, and Bukstein, who had been a reliable cap savant and strategist under McDonough. All the while, none of the other front-office vacancies left behind by McDonough's staff was filled.”

“There's a perception of what a GM is and what a GM does, that you have to log the hours and open up the laptop. I've never purported to be that guy," Jones says. "I think it would diminish what Trevor does. He's a star when it comes to the cap, planning, contracts and negotiations. And he's been really good the whole time he's been here. We have different responsibilities. My primary focus has been to manage and improve the performance and relationships within our different units: our coaching, performance team, development. The players -- that has been my focus."

I now anxiously await someone to tell semantics, call me an attack dog or somehow claims that analytics = contract and cap considerations!

 

[Yuma]

There's a guy hired on the Suns just to do analytics. They made several commercials on different players outlining thier analytics and how the numbers work. All year during the games I saw them.

 

[Chaplin]

I don’t so much have a problem with jones . . . yet. His current track record, as I detailed in another thread, is about even to me right now. So I’m neutral on him. If he fails I’ll struggle with him saying he didn’t believe he had to put in the hours (you know, the “you have to log long hours” comment). That speaks to a lack of the same motivation and drive and dedication that other top GMs have evidenced.

Have you seen anything that show a lack of motivation or drive? Outside of a single quote that is open to interpretation? Even if that is a red flag (I don't think it is), usually there is other evidence of such a lack of skill after an entire season on the job.

I have a feeling you're going to mention Dylan/Marshonn Brooks, which we've already discussed ad nauseum.

 

[Chaplin]

It is hard to understand because the last paragraph is factually wrong. Buckstein was NEVER the analytics guy. He was a contract and cap “savant” (which on its face seems ridiculous if he was one of the geniuses who gave Brandon Knight his big extension). Doesn’t do analytics... and apparently, Jones doesn’t feel the need to log the hours on the computer and do it either.

It’s really tough to have a discussion when people don’t even have a rudimentary command of the facts inside the discussion. Again, here’s the article about our FO dysfunction with Jones QUOTED as saying EXACTLY what Buckstein does and it ain’t analytics.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26088024/inside-phoenix-suns-messy-dysfunctional-front-office

“Sarver turned to not one man, but two: Jones, who retired from a 14-year playing career in 2017, and Bukstein, who had been a reliable cap savant and strategist under McDonough. All the while, none of the other front-office vacancies left behind by McDonough's staff was filled.”

“There's a perception of what a GM is and what a GM does, that you have to log the hours and open up the laptop. I've never purported to be that guy," Jones says. "I think it would diminish what Trevor does. He's a star when it comes to the cap, planning, contracts and negotiations. And he's been really good the whole time he's been here. We have different responsibilities. My primary focus has been to manage and improve the performance and relationships within our different units: our coaching, performance team, development. The players -- that has been my focus."

I now anxiously await someone to tell semantics, call me an attack dog or somehow claims that analytics = contract and cap considerations!

You ARE an attack dog. It's who you are. You are one of the worst people to have a discussion with because you consistently devolve into insults and condescension. I'm no angel either, but let's call a spade a spade.

And again, what other evidence other than this one quote from MONTHS ago do you have that James Jones doesn't take this job seriously?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Again you’re interpreting it in his favor rather than reading is actual words.

I am interpreting in the way that makes the most sense to me. Our thoughts don't always come out exactly how we intended. To suggest that he specifically meant that he doesn't want to work hard or long hours is interpreting it out of his favor.

Also his reference to the computer seems to specifically be talking about stats/analytics.

 

[BC867]

There's a guy hired on the Suns just to do analytics. They made several commercials on different players outlining thier analytics and how the numbers work. All year during the games I saw them.

He put me to sleep. Watching commercials had more life to them.

If he is the analytics guy, I hope he can put some life into his
presentations when he conveys them to the decision makers.

It reminds me of the old joke about the constipated mathematician
who worked it out with a pencil.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am interpreting in the way that makes the most sense to me. Our thoughts don't always come out exactly how we intended. To suggest that he specifically meant that he doesn't want to work hard or long hours is interpreting it out of his favor.

Also his reference to the computer seems to specifically be talking about stats/analytics.

How so? If you actually look at the full comment about logging long hours and opening up your computer it's a in direct contrast to the other way GMs work... which he doesn't purport to be. And then, he goes on to DIRECTLY talk about how he doesn't want to step on Buckstein's role as the contract and cap guy. If he was talking about not wanting to be involved in analytics (as you interpret), why would he then directly start talking about contracts and cap management in relation to not working the way other GMs do? Wouldn't it logically follow that if he was talking about not doing analytics, that the next thing he would say would actually have something to do with analytics as far as shared duties are concerned instead of then directly talking about cap management.

I think y'all are seeing what you want to see because taken at face value, it's a pretty brow-raising statement. Especially because that quote about not working the way other GMs do comes directly on the heels of the reporting about how he's functioned in office as co-GM. in the previous couple paragraphs in the article:

"Jones' detractors concede he has fulfilled his role as front-office emissary to the locker room, where players genuinely respect him and have responded to his counsel. But many of those who have observed Jones say that, on his best days, he functions more like a consultant or junior exec in charge of player programs, and less like a commanding general manager, which is his current title.

Multiple sources say Jones often isn't present for strategy and scouting meetings, even when he's not traveling. Jones counters that the division of labor is well-defined, and he finds it unnecessary to stake a claim to tasks that have been rightfully assigned to Bukstein. He doesn't feel the need to exhibit the fake hustle that pervades so many NBA front offices."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26088024/inside-phoenix-suns-messy-dysfunctional-front-office

Again, context matters. NO WHERE in any of the reporting of what Jones did as co-GM has analytics even been mentioned. Cap strategy, player development, working as an emissary were all reported on. But literally nothing... nada... zip, zero... not a word about analytics has been mentioned, yet y'all have put it into the conversation yourselves. It's a serious head-scratcher to me.

 

[Chaplin]

How so? If you actually look at the full comment about logging long hours and opening up your computer it's a in direct contrast to the other way GMs work... which he doesn't purport to be. And then, he goes on to DIRECTLY talk about how he doesn't want to step on Buckstein's role as the contract and cap guy. If he was talking about not wanting to be involved in analytics (as you interpret), why would he then directly start talking about contracts and cap management in relation to not working the way other GMs do? Wouldn't it logically follow that if he was talking about not doing analytics, that the next thing he would say would actually have something to do with analytics as far as shared duties are concerned instead of then directly talking about cap management.

I think y'all are seeing what you want to see because it's a pretty questionable statement. And that quote about not working the way other GMs do come on the heels of the previous couple paragraphs in the article:

"Jones' detractors concede he has fulfilled his role as front-office emissary to the locker room, where players genuinely respect him and have responded to his counsel. But many of those who have observed Jones say that, on his best days, he functions more like a consultant or junior exec in charge of player programs, and less like a commanding general manager, which is his current title.

Multiple sources say Jones often isn't present for strategy and scouting meetings, even when he's not traveling. Jones counters that the division of labor is well-defined, and he finds it unnecessary to stake a claim to tasks that have been rightfully assigned to Bukstein. He doesn't feel the need to exhibit the fake hustle that pervades so many NBA front offices."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26088024/inside-phoenix-suns-messy-dysfunctional-front-office

Again, context matters. NO WHERE in any of the reporting of what Jones did as co-GM has analytics even been mentioned. Cap strategy, player development, working as an emissary were all reported on. But literally nothing... nada... zip, zero... not a word about analytics has been mentioned, yet y'all have put it into the conversation yourselves. It's a serious head-scratcher to me.

And I think you are making a HUGE deal over a single paragraph spoken months ago.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And I think you are making a HUGE deal over a single paragraph spoken months ago.

actually... I'm just correcting the record that so many here have distorted. And I'm not the one who made that a huge deal. ESPN did when the flambéed the entire FO and Sarver with an in-depth dive on all the dysfunction going on in the organization, even when Jones was in co-power.

Seriously... it's okay to just admit you were misremembered something. I swear it won't kill you.

 

[Chaplin]

actually... I'm just correcting the record that so many here have distorted. And I'm not the one who made that a huge deal. ESPN did when the flambéed the entire FO and Sarver with an in-depth dive on all the dysfunction going on in the organization, even when Jones was in co-power.

Seriously... it's okay to just admit you were misremembered something. I swear it won't kill you.

I didn't misremember anything. If anything, we interpreted it differently. You're not always right. I know that's tough to hear.

Nobody is disputing there is disfunction in the organization. Some of us just don't think that one paragraph is cause to call James Jones a guy who doesn't want to do the job that he was just officially hired to do.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Have you seen anything that show a lack of motivation or drive? Outside of a single quote that is open to interpretation? Even if that is a red flag (I don't think it is), usually there is other evidence of such a lack of skill after an entire season on the job.

I have a feeling you're going to mention Dylan/Marshonn Brooks, which we've already discussed ad nauseum.

Lol. What’s your evidence that he puts in the hard work? None. There is literally none. There’s a comment he made that he doesn’t believe he has to. That’s the only comment or action in regards to his work ethic in this regard we have. Literally (although I know that literal facts are not at a premium with the jones apologists in this debate).

And btw, I never mentioned “skill” did I? Nope. All I’ve criticized, and all we’ve been discussing (even though you’ve now tried to change my criticism to analytics and now skill - both 100% incorrectly) was his willingness to put in the hours which he has said he didn’t think he needed to do.

And what hasn’t been discussed in this board as nauseum? What novel action or comment are you going to make to support jones? I went through all of his actions and discussed why I thought they were positive or negative in another thread. But anyway, the three party deal has nothing to do with my criticism. Zero. Zilch. It has nothing to do with his exact words of I don’t have to log long hours.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am interpreting in the way that makes the most sense to me. Our thoughts don't always come out exactly how we intended. To suggest that he specifically meant that he doesn't want to work hard or long hours is interpreting it out of his favor.

Also his reference to the computer seems to specifically be talking about stats/analytics.

I don’t think “...you have to log long hours...I’m not that guy” requires any interpretation at all on my part bc the words are not vague. They are very clear. He says I’m not the guy to log long hours. That’s using his words. No interpretation needed. When you begin to “interpret” someone’s unambiguous words you literally begin guessing at a meaning not originally contained in their statement. How this is difficult for you guys to understand I have no idea.

And once again, I’m not talking about the computer or stats. He uses the word “and.” That means two different thoughts. I am not one to log long hours. I don’t do computer (analytics according to all of you). Two separate statements. Let’s stay on point here - I am only talking to his very clear statement that he doesn’t believe he needs to log long hours.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And I think you are making a HUGE deal over a single paragraph spoken months ago.

Hmm looks like it’s more than a single paragraph. No show at strategy and scouting meetings. He has “detractors” - you know, guys that work in or around the organization apparently. I think you ignore a dude who says I don’t have to work hard and already has detractors at your own peril. And see I’m not making anything up. I’m not even interpreting. In other words, based on actual words outta his mouth and reporting by those closest to the situation I have legitimate concerns. But you guys go ahead and do your mental gymnastics in anyway possible to ignore those concerns. I mean they’ve seemingly proven you right with McD, oh wait . . . with Sarver, oh wait . . . with Babbyandeveryoneelsewhohaseverbeenhiredbecausewithoutfailyoudrinkthrkoolaid.

 

[Proximo]

This is exactly what I want James Jones doing.

The Suns were really lacking in this area especially communication with players under McDonough. Drafting and free agency was a weakness as well.

That's what worries me about it.

If he doesn't want to do scouting or care about it, and he doesn't want to be in constant communication with other GM's, then he is only doing half the job.

If Bower does that second part of the job - fine, but if that is the case does James get to make uniformed final decisions because he has a higher rank?

 

[Chaplin]

Hmm looks like it’s more than a single paragraph. No show at strategy and scouting meetings. He has “detractors” - you know, guys that work in or around the organization apparently. I think you ignore a dude who says I don’t have to work hard and already has detractors at your own peril. And see I’m not making anything up. I’m not even interpreting. In other words, based on actual words outta his mouth and reporting by those closest to the situation I have legitimate concerns. But you guys go ahead and do your mental gymnastics in anyway possible to ignore those concerns. I mean they’ve seemingly proven you right with McD, oh wait . . . with Sarver, oh wait . . . with Babbyandeveryoneelsewhohaseverbeenhiredbecausewithoutfailyoudrinkthrkoolaid.

What are you talking about? Please enlighten us with your mountain of evidence that James Jones is a terrible GM.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What are you talking about? Please enlighten us with your mountain of evidence that James Jones is a terrible GM.

Chap - what part of the myriad times I’ve said I’m neutral on jones don’t you seem to want to understand? There’s positives and negatives. Go find my post about those if you want to rehash bc (a) I’m sure you already read it; and (b) not typing it again.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap - what part of the myriad times I’ve said I’m neutral on jones don’t you seem to want to understand? There’s positives and negatives. Go find my post about those if you want to rehash bc (a) I’m sure you already read it; and (b) not typing it again.

Then why are you so adamant about the quote? How can you be neutral when you continually say that he doesn't want to actually be a GM?? That makes less sense than anything you've said so far.

 

[taz02]

I'm not sure about Jones, there are some positives and some concerns. My concern is that we seem to need 3 or at least 2 people to do one job.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm not sure about Jones, there are some positives and some concerns. My concern is that we seem to need 3 or at least 2 people to do one job.

agreed with all of this. Jones got value for (can't remember the name of worthless PF to get Johnson who brought at least a semblance of stability to the roster. And while I believe he contributed to the clusterfrack of that first deal gone wrong with the Wiz-Grizz, the ability to adjust on the fly and get something even better does show adaptability which is good.

But other things reported just give me pause, and the fact that he was likely in on some of the decisions that produced an absolutely atrocious product for the first 2/3s of the season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Then why are you so adamant about the quote? How can you be neutral when you continually say that he doesn't want to actually be a GM?? That makes less sense than anything you've said so far.

I’ve never said those words. I said his claim that he doesn’t think he needs to put in the hours is concerning to me and that it weighs in heavily in the negative column.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Then why are you so adamant about the quote? How can you be neutral when you continually say that he doesn't want to actually be a GM?? That makes less sense than anything you've said so far.

None of the people that are skeptical have EVER SAID THIS.

Jesus Christ! I can't for the life of me understand people who can't discuss something without basic knowledge of facts or distorting others opinions. It's beyond annoying.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What are you talking about? Please enlighten us with your mountain of evidence that James Jones is a terrible GM.

Please enlighten us with Ouchie's (or anyone else who's skeptical of Jones) ACTUAL WORDS where he said Jones is a terrible GM.

If you can't make your point without basic knowledge of fact or outright lying about what others are saying, you don't really have a point to make.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's what worries me about it.

If he doesn't want to do scouting or care about it, and he doesn't want to be in constant communication with other GM's, then he is only doing half the job.

If Bower does that second part of the job - fine, but if that is the case does James get to make uniformed final decisions because he has a higher rank?

I agree with you 100%. This is my concern as well. Hopefully the Suns rebuild their scouting department.

 

[Mainstreet]

The ESPN article @cheesebeef mentioned, should be the handbook for the modern day Suns fan.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26088024/inside-phoenix-suns-messy-dysfunctional-front-office

 

[Chaplin]

None of the people that are skeptical have EVER SAID THIS.

Jesus Christ! I can't for the life of me understand people who can't discuss something without basic knowledge of facts or distorting others opinions. It's beyond annoying.

Wow you really have a problem.