trade proposal (Cavs)

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
27,541
Reaction score
9,821
Location
L.A. area
Phoenix gets
Darius Miles ($4,130,701, 2004)
Chris Mihm ($2,809,494, 2004)
DeSagana Diop ($2,118,840, 2004/05)

Cleveland gets
Bo Outlaw ($5,955,000, 2005)
Joe Johnson ($1,850,160, 2004/05)
Jake Tsakalidis ($1,580,702, 2004)
return of owed first-round draft-pick

Why Phoenix does it:

Both Johnson and Tsakalidis still have promise, but neither of them has a personality that fits in with the direction the Suns are heading. Miles, although a huge question mark, is more likely to make an effective running mate with Marbury and Marion than Johnson ever will. Mihm is as good an option as other center options that are being discussed (Drobnjak, Campbell), and while his numbers have gone down since his rookie season, he might benefit from a different system. Diop is included to make the salary numbers fit; he does not appear to be able to compete physically in this league and the Suns would likely decline their option on him for 2004-05. If Miles has a breakout year, re-signing him could be problematic, but avoiding a trade just because the player you get might turn out to be great doesn't make any sense. Besides, with Outlaw's contract out of the way, the Suns would have more money to play with in the 2004-05 season.

Why Cleveland does it:

Cleveland wants to move Miles, but it isn't clear how much they'll be able to get for him, and the Suns are offering a fairly attractive package. Since the Cavs already have one plodding white center (Ilgauskas), their system should be able to accommodate Tsakalidis fairly easily; indeed, Tsakalidis may turn out to be something of a force in the center-poor East. Johnson is a smooth, versatile team player who will be happy to defer to the young stars on the roster, rather than be worried about his own numbers. Outlaw brings exactly the kind of veteran attitude that this young team needs and will give them more than Mihm and Diop put together.
 

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
I you took out Joe Johnson, yes. Or if you substituted him with Jacobsen.

I would not trade Joe straight up for Darius Miles.
 

hcsilla

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Posts
3,392
Reaction score
219
Location
Budapest,Hungary
I like Joe Johnson. I don't like Darius Miles.

Chris Mihm has some post-up moves but Tsakalidis does as well.
Chris Mihm can hit some mid-range J's but Tsakalidis can't.

I like Diop's upside.

Could you take out JJ and Miles?
 
OP
OP
elindholm

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
27,541
Reaction score
9,821
Location
L.A. area
I would not trade Joe straight up for Darius Miles.

Wow! Is that because you think Johnson will get better, or because you think Miles won't? Because right now Miles certainly brings a lot more to the table than Johnson does.

I'm not a big Darius Miles fan, don't get me wrong. But he is aggressive and self-confident (probably to a fault), and he's not afraid to go to the basket. I don't see Johnson as ever developing into the kind of player that opponents worry about. At best, he'll be someone who kind of helps his team in general ways and once in a while puts up a big game.
 

boisesuns

Standing Tall And Traded
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Posts
4,077
Reaction score
336
Location
Boise, ID
miles dropped off the radar after he left the clippers. he's going to be at best a role player on cleveland now with lebron, ricky d, d wagner, and big z all going to score more than him this year.

i'm not ready to give up on joe johnson yet. he did have some good games towards the end of the season. he has a good jumper, and i think will have a good season this year. all he needs is a little more confidence. he should get that playing with marbury and all the more confident people there.

as far as big jake, i'm not sure what the deal is. i know he was injured but it seems like he's in frank's doghouse(maybe for lack of skills reasons) but he is big and clogs the middle. the suns need a more athletic center. i don't think jake will ever become that. jake was brought in for more fo a half court presence, not to just get to half court when we already have scored on a break.

bo outlaw fits in well chemestry wise for the suns as well. his contracts is big, but so is his effort.

i'm not sure about mihm. isn't he kind of a stiff?
 

scotsman13

Registered User
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Posts
1,418
Reaction score
0
Location
salt lake city
joe johnson vs. miles? who is better and who would fit our team better? well lets look at the stats for this guys.
points 9.8 vs. 9.2 jj wins
rebounds 3.2 vs. 5.4 miles wins
assist 2.6 vs. 2.6 tie
steals .76 vs. 1 miles wins
blocks .23 vs. 1.3 miles wins
fg% .397 vs .410 both suck but miles is better
ft% .774 vs. .594 jj wins
3p% .366 vs. .000 jj wins
mpg 27.5 vs. 30.0 heck jj is getting more points in less time. also jj isnt the center of the offensive. and that is what miles was going to be. also these 2 players are only a couple months apart in age so they are both young and may get better.

at this point jj is more of a shooting guard and works better on a team with Amare. miles doesnt have an outside shot and that hunts him when you try to spreed the floor so that amare can post up. in some areas miles is better like steals and blocks but when you think that miles didnt make a 3 point shot this year and has only hit 4 of 54 for .077 since he has been in the nba. in other words to trade mile for jj would be a mistake and bad for the team.
 
OP
OP
elindholm

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
27,541
Reaction score
9,821
Location
L.A. area
We really don't need a long, athletic swigman with no self-confidence or jumpshot.

LOL, so you propose getting rid of, what, half the current squad?
 

hcsilla

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Posts
3,392
Reaction score
219
Location
Budapest,Hungary
I would trade Outlaw and Tsakalidis for Diop and Stewart.

Outlaw is a more servicable vet than Stewart.
Diop has more upside than Tsakalidis, IMO.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Conner
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,497
Reaction score
34,503
Location
Charlotte, NC
Originally posted by hcsilla
I would trade Outlaw and Tsakalidis for Diop and Stewart.

Outlaw is a more servicable vet than Stewart.
Diop has more upside than Tsakalidis, IMO.

I'm sorry but I think that trade would really suck.

Sure, Tsakalidis isn't great, but at least he gives us good size against bigger Suns.

Diop has been terrible as an NBA player, and has clearly shown so far that he won't ever be any good. A .385 field goal percentage is awful, and he averages more personal fouls (1.9) than points per game (1.5).

In this trade, the Suns are getting reamed hard.
 

hcsilla

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Posts
3,392
Reaction score
219
Location
Budapest,Hungary
Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I'm sorry but I think that trade would really suck.

Sure, Tsakalidis isn't great, but at least he gives us good size against bigger Suns.

Diop has been terrible as an NBA player, and has clearly shown so far that he won't ever be any good. A .385 field goal percentage is awful, and he averages more personal fouls (1.9) than points per game (1.5).

In this trade, the Suns are getting reamed hard.
I disagree.

Yes, Diop is ultra-raw.But he is ultra-athletic as well to his size.
I think that he has a decent chance to become at least a bigger version of Adonal Foyle which would be very servicable for the Suns.
Sure Tsakalidis is a better player right now but since Frank Johnson doesn't give him PT what can we lose with that trade?
 
OP
OP
elindholm

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
27,541
Reaction score
9,821
Location
L.A. area
Well, I'm glad I started a discussion, even though everyone hates this trade. :rolleyes:

The key to the deal for the Suns would be Miles. If you don't think that Miles is likely to be much better than Johnson, then certainly you won't support the trade. Like I said before, I don't think Miles has superstar written all over him (the way some people think he does), but I maintain that Johnson, for all of his ability, is way too passive ever to be an effective weapon for the Suns. Similarly, Tsakalidis has the potential to be a serviceable player, but not with this Suns team or coach.
 

hcsilla

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Posts
3,392
Reaction score
219
Location
Budapest,Hungary
Originally posted by elindholm
Well, I'm glad I started a discussion, even though everyone hates this trade.
I don't hate this trade.
Moreover you CAN'T hate it talentwise from Suns' viewpoint.

I just can't stand Miles and I still like and trust Joe Johnson.
 
OP
OP
elindholm

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
27,541
Reaction score
9,821
Location
L.A. area
I just can't stand Miles and I still like and trust Joe Johnson.

I'd agree with both parts of this statement, but I'm trying to be realistic. I do think that both Tsakalidis and Johnson can be effective players, and I can't say I would relish the prospect of seeing Miles in a Suns uniform.
 

Goldfield

Formally known as BEERZ
Joined
Sep 13, 2002
Posts
10,508
Reaction score
2,344
Location
ASFN
JJ is a very good player for this team... he is very talented, and doesnt have to be the goto guy... That is huge for him...


As a fourth option he will be damn good!
 

Joe Mama

Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
9,501
Reaction score
964
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Originally posted by BEERZ
JJ is a very good player for this team... he is very talented, and doesnt have to be the goto guy... That is huge for him...


As a fourth option he will be damn good!

I was just going to write the same thing. If he would just shoot a little more consistently he would be perfect for this team. Marbury's going to get his shots. I have a feeling Amare Stoudemire is going to demand the ball more this season, and Shawn Marion will take 15-20 shots per game. I don't think there's room for miles on this team. After next season he'll be a restricted free agent, and I couldn't see him wanting to re-sign here.

I can appreciate Miles talent, but I've never been able to understand why people think he is going to be a superstar or even an all-star.

As far as the centers go we would be trading one often injured center for two of them. And Big Jake has proven more than either of those Cleveland centers. That's sad.

Joe Mama
 

SirStefan32

Krycek, Alex Krycek
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
18,497
Reaction score
4,913
Location
Harrisburg, PA
The thing about Johnson is that his form, release and the follow- through are excellent, but they shots are just not going in. I think that once he starts making them, he can develop into a very dangerous three point shooter.
 

Joe Mama

Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
9,501
Reaction score
964
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Originally posted by SirStefan32
The thing about Johnson is that his form, release and the follow- through are excellent, but they shots are just not going in. I think that once he starts making them, he can develop into a very dangerous three point shooter.

That makes sense. Hitting shots is part of becoming a a "very dangerous three point shooter". :)

It is frustrating watching him shoot the ball because like you said the shot looks very good most of the time. It just doesn't want to go in the basket with any consistency.

Joe Mama
 
Last edited:

Goldfield

Formally known as BEERZ
Joined
Sep 13, 2002
Posts
10,508
Reaction score
2,344
Location
ASFN
Originally posted by elindholm
but I maintain that Johnson, for all of his ability, is way too passive ever to be an effective weapon for the Suns. Similarly, Tsakalidis has the potential to be a serviceable player, but not with this Suns team or coach.
I think most of his problem is his young age. He is only months away from Amare's age. I feel as he gets older, he will become more confident. You could see that in his play from this year compaired to the year before...

Give him time, we allready have 3 players that demand the ball. I feel were very lucky to have a fourth option in JJ, who not only is very talented but doesnt cry about the amount of touches he gets...

Would Miles be happy being the fourth option? I am not sure about that...
 

Goldfield

Formally known as BEERZ
Joined
Sep 13, 2002
Posts
10,508
Reaction score
2,344
Location
ASFN
Originally posted by BEERZ
JJ is a very good player for this team... he is very talented, and doesnt have to be the goto guy... That is huge for him...


As a fourth option he will be damn good!
Whoa... I dont remember posting this one...


Must of been a good night of drinking!

And if thats the case, my post seems even more impressive(that I could still type, more or less) :thumbup: :D :thumbup:
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
22,115
Reaction score
6,551
Talent for talent, I suppose this trade is reasonable, but for the Suns it just does not make sense.

JJ and Miles are probably about equals in their development and potential. Miles is very athletic, but there have been tons of players with great athleticism that did not translate it into major production on the NBA level.

For Suns old timers, Miles reminds me of Alvin Scott, who had tremendous athleticism and a decent, role playing career.

Diop might have potential, but he's more of a project than Jake right now.

Why should we trade for players who are projects? We already have projects to spare. We have a good team right now. JJ has the potential of being our future 2, Miles is a 3 or 4.

Diop might be good but still does not have the bulk that Jake has. I know our memories of Jake our short, but toward the end of his rookie year he really was a presence.

Think of it like the baseball trades this time of year. Losing teams trade established talent for prospects. Winning teams trade prospects for established talent, in order to take that next step now. I believe we are more the latter than the former.

I don't mind filling out the roster, but as far as major trades. . . .

Its Zo or just say NO!
 

Forum statistics

Threads
556,159
Posts
5,433,924
Members
6,329
Latest member
cardinals2025
Top