Trade up... just do it Keim

[Jetstream Green]

Let's get this part of the way for all the old women on here petrified, of going for that coveted young QB, who say trading up is bad and "I have my statistics but do not have the time to discuss why the guy they traded up to pick was the wrong move and not the move itself". If you do not get lucky in later rounds (and yes, that is more luck than analyze past round one), your QB selection is probably going to suck. No, I do not want to hear the disappointing history of the freaking Browns or Redskins, screw them and their idiot owners. No young QB, no winning franchise.

I would trade the farm for two years if the Cardinals think Darnold has a better percentage to be a franchise QB than the other guys in the draft and trade for that first pick. Hell, they took everyone that counted to his pro day and I doubt what they saw which compelled them to go there had changed their mind.

I would trade to the second if Mayfield or Rosen is the choice. They felt the need to wine and dine Rosen of recent, so they must like him too. They might really like Mayfield and why they are not making a lot of noise about him.

"But we will cripple our franchise doing this", oh child please! Look at our roster, with Peterson, DJ, Golden, Jones, Budda and yes Humphries and then look at our draft productivity compared to how we have adapted to one year deals to fill the gaps which the Keim gambles have failed on which have been many. Simply put, we can survive a two year drought of picks but we cannot survive without a decent chance at a young signal caller. Now some will say "but look at our roster and our gaping holes", whatever because with injures and freaking Gabbert and Stanton we still finished with a average record.

This Cardinal fan since the mid seventies is sick and tired of far off hopes. You damn right I would welcome a shot of something better. Now for those in their thirties who want to play the wait game, you can entertain that notion till you're into your forties and start thinking like me and then when you turn fifty demand the act of getting the guy

 

[Goldfield]

If they feel one is the right guy you go get him.

 

[Jetstream Green]

If they feel one is the right guy you go get him.

If they do not, and remember no prospect is perfect and even then it's always a gamble, then you do not... but if they think one is, go get him and stop running in place as a franchise

 

[oaken1]

Trading the next 4 firsts for #1 wouldnt really hurt us. Our best #1 so far is DJHump and we still dont even know if he is worth keeping...

but yeah, keep those thirds...because thats where we get lucky!! Thank God Amir Abdullah got picked right in front of us or we would have never picked David Johnson.

 

[gimpy]

"Now for those in their thirties who want to play the wait game, you can entertain that notion till you're into your forties and start thinking like me and then when you turn fifty demand the act of getting the guy" (quote from Jet stream).

How about those of us nearing 70?

 

[Wellthatsjustfine]

I guess I’m in the minority here but I don’t think we realistically have the means to move up. The Browns and Jets are taking quarterbacks. No doubt about that. We dont have the picks to be able to compete with Buffalo or Denver. How do you guys think that makes it possible to move up?

 

[oaken1]

I guess I’m in the minority here but I don’t think we realistically have the means to move up. The Browns and Jets are taking quarterbacks. No doubt about that. We dont have the picks to be able to compete with Buffalo or Denver. How do you guys think that makes it possible to move up?

you're joking right?

we have seven picks in every draft for the next decade and more. Trades rarely involve picks from only one draft.

 

[Wellthatsjustfine]

you're joking right?

we have seven picks in every draft for the next decade and more. Trades rarely involve picks from only one draft.

No. Not joking. I thinking you’re kidding yourself if you think another team is going to value our picks for the next three years that over buffalo giving them the same amount of picks and in known slots this year.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Can the draft just happen yet? Holy smokes...

 

[GimmedaBall]

Starting a new thread to rehash and kick a dead horse is not going to change opinions. Those who want to trade up are still wanting to trade up; those who think the price is too expensive still think it is too expensive.

Don't think you are going to rally new converts by calling those of us who don't want to trade up old women. Also, we need to get some on the forum to a good doctor since Jetstream has joined the ranks of the SICK AND TIRED.

The one who needs to be convinced is SK. Perhaps the 'Trade the Farm' gang can draft a letter to SK and tell him you are all SICK AND TIRED and for him to put his and the Cards next couple of years on the line because you want to trade up to get an average QB and to cure yourself of being SICK AND TIRED. Let him know he is an old woman if he doesn't agree with you.

SK knows better than all of us the kind of gamble that requires. It has never been his MO to make those kind of moves---it would really be a shock to Cardinal fans if he did so now.

Your FQB is going to be either Bradford (a former #1 overall pick and only 30 years old) or Glennon if Bradford goes down again with his bad knee. If a QB falls to us at #15 and is the BPA on SK's board, he'll be taken in this draft. Cards will continue selecting top picks to add supporting players to the roster. Deal with it.

 

[oaken1]

No. Not joking. I thinking you’re kidding yourself if you think another team is going to value our picks for the next three years that over buffalo giving them the same amount of picks and in known slots this year.

These are recent trades...

Browns get:
No. 8 (traded to TEN, OT Jack Conklin)
Third-round pick (traded to CAR, CB Daryl Worley)
Fourth-round pick (traded to OAK, QB Connor Cook)
First-round pick in '17
Second-round pick in '18

Tennessee gets: Rams' first-round pick (2016), two second-round picks (2016), a third-round pick (2016), a first-round pick (2017) and another third-round pick (2017).

That was the trades to get Goff and Wentz....note the prominence of future picks.

interesting to note that the Rams were at 15 and traded to #1 overall. They basically traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 2 thirds for the #1 overall.

 

[AZ Native]

"Now for those in their thirties who want to play the wait game, you can entertain that notion till you're into your forties and start thinking like me and then when you turn fifty demand the act of getting the guy" (quote from Jet stream).

How about those of us nearing 70?

I hear you. That is the reason I went to Tampa. How many more Super Bowls are the Cardinals going to in my lifetime?

 

[oaken1]

I hear you. That is the reason I went to Tampa. How many more Super Bowls are the Cardinals going to in my lifetime?

by the looks of it... none, if you are over 30

 

[Wellthatsjustfine]

These are recent trades...

Browns get:
No. 8 (traded to TEN, OT Jack Conklin)
Third-round pick (traded to CAR, CB Daryl Worley)
Fourth-round pick (traded to OAK, QB Connor Cook)
First-round pick in '17
Second-round pick in '18

Tennessee gets: Rams' first-round pick (2016), two second-round picks (2016), a third-round pick (2016), a first-round pick (2017) and another third-round pick (2017).

That was the trades to get Goff and Wentz....note the prominence of future picks.

interesting to note that the Rams were at 15 and traded to #1 overall. They basically traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 2 thirds for the #1 overall.

Each draft is different though. There are four teams that are in a better position than us to make these moves and are very open about needing QB’s

 

[Solar7]

Let's get this part of the way for all the old women on here petrified, of going for that coveted young QB, who say trading up is bad and "I have my statistics but do not have the time to discuss why the guy they traded up to pick was the wrong move and not the move itself". If you do not get lucky in later rounds (and yes, that is more luck than analyze past round one), your QB selection is probably going to suck. No, I do not want to hear the disappointing history of the freaking Browns or Redskins, screw them and their idiot owners. No young QB, no winning franchise.

I would trade the farm for two years if the Cardinals think Darnold has a better percentage to be a franchise QB than the other guys in the draft and trade for that first pick. Hell, they took everyone that counted to his pro day and I doubt what they saw which compelled them to go there had changed their mind.

I would trade to the second if Mayfield or Rosen is the choice. They felt the need to wine and dine Rosen of recent, so they must like him too. They might really like Mayfield and why they are not making a lot of noise about him.

"But we will cripple our franchise doing this", oh child please! Look at our roster, with Peterson, DJ, Golden, Jones, Budda and yes Humphries and then look at our draft productivity compared to how we have adapted to one year deals to fill the gaps which the Keim gambles have failed on which have been many. Simply put, we can survive a two year drought of picks but we cannot survive without a decent chance at a young signal caller. Now some will say "but look at our roster and our gaping holes", whatever because with injures and freaking Gabbert and Stanton we still finished with a average record.

This Cardinal fan since the mid seventies is sick and tired of far off hopes. You damn right I would welcome a shot of something better. Now for those in their thirties who want to play the wait game, you can entertain that notion till you're into your forties and start thinking like me and then when you turn fifty demand the act of getting the guy

Yay, another thread where I can make the same arguments! Maybe I should just start copying and pasting a template.

I'm with @GimmedaBall though, why make another thread about this when we're already having the same argument in a similarly titled thread, and call us "old women" to go with it? Was I an "old woman" petrified of risk when I wanted us to go all-in on paying Cousins whatever it took to make him our QB?

It's both the move AND the player that contribute to it being the wrong decision in all of these cases. You have no fallback cases besides Wentz and Goff, who you seem to already want to anoint Hall of Fame quarterbacks - let's just conveniently ignore that even if we count them already as successes, then we've got 3/13 since 2005. Less than a quarter of a success rate.

You and Oaken keep talking about "loser franchises," so have you forgotten that we're the second losingest team in NFL history? Sure, it seems like we've turned a corner, but there's no Super Bowl banner in our stadium, and the Arizona incarnation of our team has 6 total playoff wins in 30 years, with 3 of them coming in one amazing underdog year where we caught lightning in a bottle. And we only have 5 seasons with playoff appearances. Our winningest coach of all time was only here for five years.

"Look at our roster" - yeah, let's look at the roster. Peterson, Jones, and DJ are blue chippers. Golden is coming off a major injury, or is gone next year as a UFA, or is going to be paid a bounty. Budda looks to be good, but has only started 6 games. Humphries looks alright, but hasn't been able to stay on the field, and is coming off a pretty intense injury. So we've got three, maybe four guys that we can say are great. The rest are just kind of... guys. You can say "whatever" and point to Stanton and Gabbert managing to win some games, but that's also ignoring that we barely have any WRs on the roster besides a Fitzgerald who is currently going to see a double team every single play and is a year older, and at CB2, we have nothing. A guy who has bounced around a bunch of teams and never made a true impact. Look into 2019 and we have 25 players on the roster. That's right, next season, we need to add or re-sign 28 players just to field an active roster. 20 if we keep our picks as of now. But sure, let's get rid of four to six of those picks! Then we'll just have 22-24 guys to add, assuming there's no competitions in camp.

This isn't the NBA - the QB is not LeBron, he can't take over the entire game. I can tell you this much, if we trade away our future to take some kid who hasn't even thrown an NFL ball, I'll be scheduling something better to do on my Sundays. And the whole front office will have a lot of spare time in the Spring to spend with their families, considering they won't have any picks of value to use. They can use that time to prepare for what it's like when unemployed.

 

[oaken1]

Each draft is different though. There are four teams that are in a better position than us to make these moves and are very open about needing QB’s

they are. But historically big trades in the nfl draft involve picks from multiple years... Yes Buffalo can offer two first rounders this year... but that would make them offer less in future value. Teams like future value as it allows them flexibility in future drafts. future value is why the Browns have two top five picks now.
I aint saying we are gonna do it. But we can. all we have to do is offer a better package than other teams.

 

[Solar7]

they are. But historically big trades in the nfl draft involve picks from multiple years... Yes Buffalo can offer two first rounders this year... but that would make them offer less in future value. Teams like future value as it allows them flexibility in future drafts. future value is why the Browns have two top five picks now.
I aint saying we are gonna do it. But we can. all we have to do is offer a better package than other teams.

Teams would almost certainly rather have immediate assets than later assets. It's just that teams rarely have them. Buffalo's two #1s this year beats our #1 this year and #1 next year every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Check the value charts.

 

[oaken1]

Teams would almost certainly rather have immediate assets than later assets. It's just that teams rarely have them. Buffalo's two #1s this year beats our #1 this year and #1 next year every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Check the value charts.

true. But it does not necessarily beat out our one this year, next...and next years third.
its all about the package and cleveland has shown a propensity for acquiring future picks over the last few years...
though its not really an issue with cleveland this year....cap implications also play a role.

right now cleves rookie pool is probably around 17mil, add in another first rounder this year and that pool may need to go up another 4 or 5 mil... obviously the slotting between 4 and 20 makes a difference as well, their pool might actually go down. There are lots of factors to consider in draft trades, it isnt just this for that.... our rookie pool is probably around 9mil... if we were to trade up we would need to allot another 3mil or so to cover... if somehow we bought a top five pick outright and kept 15 we would need to add another 6mil or so.

anybody trading up needs to make sure they can clear the extra space... Buffalo likely would not have a problem with that all things considered... I dont think they have yet spent all the money they were planning to offer cousins.

its all moot. Keim wont make a deal. he has tiny little gerbil balls and will keep making moves to have us at 8-8...so if everything goes perfectly we can win 10 and make a two week playoff run. Then we get to do it all again next year, and the year after that, and the year after that......we had more hope when it was 5-11 every year.

 

[Jasper]

I’m not a fan of trading up, there’s no such thing as a sure pick. Not Wadsworth, Leinart, Levi Brown, Cooper, etc., list goes on. Only exceptions that come to mind are PP and Fitz

 

[POISON]

Trading the next 4 firsts for #1 wouldnt really hurt us. Our best #1 so far is DJHump and we still dont even know if he is worth keeping...

but yeah, keep those thirds...because thats where we get lucky!! Thank God Amir Abdullah got picked right in front of us or we would have never picked David Johnson.

Trading our FOUR first round picks would be the stupidest assinine move ever. Surely your kidding. ...

 

[Wellthatsjustfine]

Each draft is different though. There are five teams that are in a better position than us to make these moves and are very open about needing QB’s

true. But it does not necessarily beat out our one this year, next...and next years third.
its all about the package and cleveland has shown a propensity for acquiring future picks over the last few years...
though its not really an issue with cleveland this year....cap implications also play a role.

right now cleves rookie pool is probably around 17mil, add in another first rounder this year and that pool may need to go up another 4 or 5 mil... obviously the slotting between 4 and 20 makes a difference as well, their pool might actually go down. There are lots of factors to consider in draft trades, it isnt just this for that.... our rookie pool is probably around 9mil... if we were to trade up we would need to allot another 3mil or so to cover... if somehow we bought a top five pick outright and kept 15 we would need to add another 6mil or so.

anybody trading up needs to make sure they can clear the extra space... Buffalo likely would not have a problem with that all things considered... I dont think they have yet spent all the money they were planning to offer cousins.

its all moot. Keim wont make a deal. he has tiny little gerbil balls and will keep making moves to have us at 8-8...so if everything goes perfectly we can win 10 and make a two week playoff run. Then we get to do it all again next year, and the year after that, and the year after that......we had more hope when it was 5-11 every year.

You’re only counting the 2 1sts. IIRC, Buffalo has multiple picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds this year too.

 

[Brak]

I don't have them trading up for a "can't miss" type of prospect - but this draft doesn't have one, it's got a bunch of guys who aren't worthy of a top 10 pick IMHO. Darnold & Rosen do NOT impress me any more than Matt Barkley did when he was supposed to be hot sauce. One or both will be a complete bust, I'd bet my left nut on it.

I would rather see them do something bold like make a wild deal with Indy and bring Andrew Luck to the desert, assuming his shoulder is sound. It seems that Indy may be willing to move him, and I'd rather see picks for a guy like him than for any of the unknown quantities that are in the draft this year.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Yay, another thread where I can make the same arguments! Maybe I should just start copying and pasting a template.

I'm with @GimmedaBall though, why make another thread about this when we're already having the same argument in a similarly titled thread, and call us "old women" to go with it? Was I an "old woman" petrified of risk when I wanted us to go all-in on paying Cousins whatever it took to make him our QB?

It's both the move AND the player that contribute to it being the wrong decision in all of these cases. You have no fallback cases besides Wentz and Goff, who you seem to already want to anoint Hall of Fame quarterbacks - let's just conveniently ignore that even if we count them already as successes, then we've got 3/13 since 2005. Less than a quarter of a success rate.

You and Oaken keep talking about "loser franchises," so have you forgotten that we're the second losingest team in NFL history? Sure, it seems like we've turned a corner, but there's no Super Bowl banner in our stadium, and the Arizona incarnation of our team has 6 total playoff wins in 30 years, with 3 of them coming in one amazing underdog year where we caught lightning in a bottle. And we only have 5 seasons with playoff appearances. Our winningest coach of all time was only here for five years.

"Look at our roster" - yeah, let's look at the roster. Peterson, Jones, and DJ are blue chippers. Golden is coming off a major injury, or is gone next year as a UFA, or is going to be paid a bounty. Budda looks to be good, but has only started 6 games. Humphries looks alright, but hasn't been able to stay on the field, and is coming off a pretty intense injury. So we've got three, maybe four guys that we can say are great. The rest are just kind of... guys. You can say "whatever" and point to Stanton and Gabbert managing to win some games, but that's also ignoring that we barely have any WRs on the roster besides a Fitzgerald who is currently going to see a double team every single play and is a year older, and at CB2, we have nothing. A guy who has bounced around a bunch of teams and never made a true impact. Look into 2019 and we have 25 players on the roster. That's right, next season, we need to add or re-sign 28 players just to field an active roster. 20 if we keep our picks as of now. But sure, let's get rid of four to six of those picks! Then we'll just have 22-24 guys to add, assuming there's no competitions in camp.

This isn't the NBA - the QB is not LeBron, he can't take over the entire game. I can tell you this much, if we trade away our future to take some kid who hasn't even thrown an NFL ball, I'll be scheduling something better to do on my Sundays. And the whole front office will have a lot of spare time in the Spring to spend with their families, considering they won't have any picks of value to use. They can use that time to prepare for what it's like when unemployed.

We only have so many play off appearances because we have never found a young QB to be successful. Hey, I know, let's talk teams who have the 'wisdom' to wait and let the pick come to you and then act on the pick. Surely, such a team finds their QB of the future. Hey, what just walked into the room or rather flew into the room? It's not an elephant but a Cardinal. The Cardinals really never suck, that is the painful reality, they usually are mediocre. We usually are just outside the door in the draft for a great QB but never reach over to grab the guy, sort of like we have our own special rules, a Cardinal compulsive behavior of what we do not allow ourselves

Yes, a new thread because there are threads which rehash this too from saying not to trade picks. Cousins, is not a stud winning QB and throwing a ton of money at him is not proving you are aggressive in your line of thought but only proving how conservative you might be by putting that much value on a average QB. As far as having a ton of players unsigned, that is also why we have a ton of money available for next season which will disappear back to the norm once we fill the roster again and that ton of money actually does make it possible to fill the roster and why that huge cap space is there in the first place

 

[GatorAZ]

Trading our FOUR first round picks would be the stupidest asinine move ever. Surely your kidding. ...

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[Dr. Jones]

Steve Keim thought Blake Bortles was worth it.

And brought in Gabbert.

Something tells me he needs to stay away from the 1st round for a while.