Trade?

[panfolk]

Colangelo mentioned how he wasn't afraid to mess up a winning team by adding to it... is there a trade in the near future? When is the deadline?

I'd like to hold onto Lampe, Hunter, and Bo myself. Vroman has no trade value so it's just a matter of whether or not we want to use up a roster spot with him (I have no idea what he's like in action because he hasn't played much in the nationally televised games I've watched). Barbosa is a big question mark.
If we can get Vujanic we'd have someone who would pressure the ball and create opportunities by drive and dish (from what I've heard, once again I haven't seen much of him in action) and whatnot. Barbosa isn't big enough to be a proper swingman and he's proving to be limited at the point in his distribution skills. Who thinks we should give him more time?

Voskuhl wouldn't get much in trade but he's definitely on the block I'd bet.

What are we looking for really? If we get a big he'll rot on the bench... a swingman that can make his own shots would be nice to replace Casey (who only seems to be a spot up shooter as he gets blocked every time I've seen him go to the rim). We could also be looking for a backup PG who isn't shoot first.

Really, aside from Arroyo and Skita (neither one is great but I'd like to see what we could get from either) I think any trading we do should be to move up in the draft. Although getting Garcia with the Bulls pick and Frye with the GS pick seems like a good deal. Dunno. I'm just throwing stuff out in hopes of getting interesting feedback

 

[StopTheMadness]

We should either trade Lampe or play him. Simple as that. He's doing nothing for us rotting on the bench.

 

[Joe Mama]

I wasn't able to watch last night's game very closely. I thought they made a mistake by playing Barbosa too much even though he did get hot for a while. Again I wasn't watching closely, but I thought Outlaw really helped defensively. I would have given at least 20 of Barbosa's minutes to Hunter and Outlaw.

I think the key is that guys like Hunter, CJ, and Bo outlaw need to play with the starters as much as possible. In other words you don't want to have two of the bench guys in the game at once. Of course I know it's a lot easier for us analyzing the game after the fact.

I actually wasn't that discouraged with last night's game. Think about everything the Phoenix Suns had going against them. It was the first full game without their most important player. They were on the road against the hottest team in the NBA. It was the second game in a back-to-back. Frankly I would not have been surprised if they were down by 20 in the fourth quarter instead of up by 10.

I do think Vujanic would help. However I'm not sure how much. I just don't see that one happening until at least next summer. Even then I'll be pretty surprised if he is playing for the Phoenix Suns.

I hate to give up on Lampe, but it wouldn't break my heart as long as they got something decent for him. I'm not sure the Suns really have much to give to make a really good trade. That Chicago draft pick is losing value by the day, yet I still don't want the Suns to trade it unless they are getting significant value in return.

Joe Mama

 

[Kolo]

I'm starting to think maybe Barbosa is Tony Delk part deux--which isn't necessarily bad considering what we gave up to get him, but doesn't do much for our need for a true backup point guard long term. But I don't think we should make any moves right now, unless it's giving up young talent (Lampe, for instance) for young talent (Arroyo, for instance). This year, I think we're ok w/ Nash getting his 34 minutes and JJ being the primary backup. Long term, I'd like to see us either bring Vujanic in or sign a cheap veteran this offseason. I like what I've seen from our young guys enough not to want to trade them for a stop-gap like Kenny Anderson or somebody like that.

And about the Bulls--while they're in the 8th spot now, I see Boston and Philadelphia both playing better down the stretch, and they're in 9th and 10th. And the Bulls have played almost ten more home games than away games., including almost all of their recent victories. But even if they do make the playoffs, we're still the youngest team in the league w/ (probably) the best record in the league, and having the 15th pick in the draft under those circumstances would be great.

 

[devilalum]

Trading for another player who won't get any playing time seems like a waste. D'Antoni has said repeatedly that he is going to stick with a 7 man rotation most of the time.

I've also read that the Suns don't practice that much because of their playing style. So how are players like Lampe going to improve?

The only trade that would seem to make sense for the Suns would be a trade of extra parts, Lampe, Vroman, Voskuhl, the Chi. pick(which had a lot more value a month ago) for a LEGIT 6th man that could play 25 minutes a night and make a real contribution. Maybe Barbosa if the player coming back can play the point and is a solid vet.

If the Suns had one more really solid piece to add to the big 5+Hunter they could easily get away with a 7 man rotation. With the versatitlity they have amongst their current starters who can almost all play 2 or 3 positions they could reduce everybodies minutes a little.

180/7=25

It just seems like this team doesn't need anymore young inexperienced players. The Suns need to make moves that will get them up that last step. Most great temas have a great 6th man that comes in and gives the team a lift. A healthy Bobby Jackson would be a nice fit. There has to be a team out there that is going nowhere that would take Lampe or CJ and the Chicago pick for a really solid vet.

 

[devilalum]

And about the Bulls--while they're in the 8th spot now, I see Boston and Philadelphia both playing better down the stretch, and they're in 9th and 10th. And the Bulls have played almost ten more home games than away games., including almost all of their recent victories. But even if they do make the playoffs, we're still the youngest team in the league w/ (probably) the best record in the league, and having the 15th pick in the draft under those circumstances would be great.

I still say the Suns blew it by trading the pick. There won't be any players at 15 that will be even close to as good as Iggy or Deng. The SUns got Vroman who will NEVER be a factor for this team and a mid first rounder (ZARKO) for Iggy. That is weak.

And the arguement that the Suns wouldn't have been able to get Q isn't necessarily true. They could have dumped some salary and still made him the same offer. Iggy would be a great 6th man for this team. He would fit perfectly with their current style.

I'm not unhappy with how things turned out I just think the Suns got the short end of this deal. They took a calculated risk assuming that the Bulls would suck and it backfired. Maybe they will find the next Michael Finley with the mid round pick and look like geniuses.

It just seems like one of the Suns serendipitous decisions has to backfire sooner or later.

 

[Yuma]

I DO NOT want a trade! Our trade history as a franchise is mixed at best. Our draft history is arguably better. I want us to keep our draft picks. If we NEED someone else, then use the exception we just created and bring in whoever.

Trade Lampe because he's rotting at the end of the bench? We have twelve guys now. He has the best chance to play now that we are down to twelve guys. He has more potential than many 7 footers who are projects in this league. Many say Darko is going to be good. There were some draft analysts that had Lampe rated almost as high. Why can a team wait for Darko and it's OK. However, it's a waste for us to develop Lampe?

 

[jibikao]

I think the reason Barbosa played a lot of mins last night is that the coach wants him to get comfortable. It is clear that D'antoni wants him to play with confidence. It's ok to make mistakes. heh

I agree. We can take this loss but we need a backup PG to stand up. Barbosa still plays like he doesn't know how the team runs. His dribbling and passing are very weak because he is afraid of making runs.

If Barbosa can't get used to it, I say trade him. We need a PG who can RUN and PASS the ball to other 4 starters when Nash is down. We really don't need more scoring from a PG. There's very few assists because Barbosa was looking for his shots than for others.

I mean even JJ replaced Barbosa at one point. How sad is that? A PG got replaced by a non-PG. Barbosa must be really bad for the coach to replace him that way, isn't it?

We'll see how Barbosa does after a few more games...

 

[Kolo]

I
It just seems like one of the Suns serendipitous decisions has to backfire sooner or later.

I don't think it's possible to make a serendipitous decision.

 

[Kolo]

I should add it is possible to have a serendipitous result.

Devilalum, you've knocked the Colangeli for getting lucky on personnel moves. Which moves were purely luck, and which were the result largely of good scouting? Was drafting Marion at 9 when he was relatively unknown luck? Was targeting Stoudemire luck (I imagine you'll respond we were lucky other teams let him slide by)? How about Nash at 16, Finley at 21, Hornacek and Ceballos in the 2nd round, etc...? Since every team has hits and misses when it comes to personnel moves and especially the draft, do you think good sense never comes into the equation? Or have the Wizards and Clippers and Hawks, etc... been exceptionally unlucky for the past 20 years, and the Suns (two years not making the playoffs in about 20 years, I think) exceptionally lucky?


I think you should give some credit where it's due as far as Suns management for keeping this team competitive for the past 20 years.

 

[JS22]

I would love to see Arroyo come to Phoenix. Unfortunately, I dont think that's going to happen.

 

[Yuma]

I would love to see Arroyo come to Phoenix. Unfortunately, I dont think that's going to happen.

Arroyo is in the dog house big time in Utah. He was the defacto starting guard and got a nice contract they were so high on him. I heard he is now third on the depth chart at point guard. He's not as quick as Barbosa, but he plays more like Nash.

I do think there is a chance to get him. We just take on more salary. That would be the sticking point. I don't think Barbosa and his contracts mesh close enough for a one to one trade. I would not give up Lampe to them to get Arroyo.

 

[jbeecham]

I've also read that the Suns don't practice that much because of their playing style. So how are players like Lampe going to improve?

From what I've read, D'Antoni will allow his players practice for only 1-2hrs if they put in great effort for entire time of the practice (unlike other teams that practice for 3-4hrs and players will practice half-assed). Also, there's nothing stopping the players from staying after practice to work on skills with the coaches (who say they're always available). The players have to make the effort though.

 

[Joe Mama]

Arroyo is in the dog house big time in Utah. He was the defacto starting guard and got a nice contract they were so high on him. I heard he is now third on the depth chart at point guard. He's not as quick as Barbosa, but he plays more like Nash.

I do think there is a chance to get him. We just take on more salary. That would be the sticking point. I don't think Barbosa and his contracts mesh close enough for a one to one trade. I would not give up Lampe to them to get Arroyo.

I'm almost positive that Arroyo is a BYC player. He just signed a contract recently that gives him $4 million per season for the next four seasons.

Joe Mama

 

[fordronken]

People need to stop having definitive positions on 20 year old players who are still learning English. Point guards straight from college often take a few years to really start to figure out the pros. Give Barbosa a chance. And Lampe certainly has a lot more that he can develop.

 

[Joe Mama]

People need to stop having definitive positions on 20 year old players who are still learning English. Point guards straight from college often take a few years to really start to figure out the pros. Give Barbosa a chance. And Lampe certainly has a lot more that he can develop.

I'm not necessarily ready to give up on Leandro Barbosa. I think he could be a nice combo guard off the bench, but I don't think he's ever going to be a very good point guard. It would be one thing if he was struggling to figure out the NBA. He just hasn't shown anything that leads me to believe he's going to be able to run an offense.

Maybe you could provide some examples of some of those guys who took a few years to learn how to get a single assist.

Joe Mama

 

[panfolk]

from the other thread ("barbosa told not to worry about mistakes" or whatever) it sounds like LB knows he has regressed. D'A telling him to play and not think is telling in that Barbosa may really only have a scorers instinct.
Dunno. I don't want to give up on him because he seems like a nice person, has those long arms, is lightning quick, and is a good 3point shooter. At the same time if he and a combo of Jake or Casey could get us a solid swingman or a solid backup pointguard it'd be golden. I absolutely do not want to get rid of Lampe under any circumstances. Unlike Zarko and Barbosa he has no problem with confidence, he has a great shot, and he's 7 feet tall! If he doesn't become a good high post center I'll eat my Suns cap.

I am not proposing we trade because we've lost three in a row... it's just painfaully clear D'A doesn't see our bench as worth resting the starters (once again refer to the above thread). We need role players like Outlaw and a long term solution like Lampe is worth a roster spot but Voskuhl, Casey, and perhaps Vroman can go (although I'm not convinced that Vroman won't end up as our Outlaw replacement when Bo gets too old, but is that worth a roster spot? If we carried him on IL I'd say yes)

 

[Joe Mama]

Jackson Vroman hasn't shown me anything that leads me to believe that he will be an important part of this team. I wouldn't trade Lampe unless they are getting something great in return.

Joe Mama

 

[devilalum]

I should add it is possible to have a serendipitous result.

Devilalum, you've knocked the Colangeli for getting lucky on personnel moves. Which moves were purely luck, and which were the result largely of good scouting? Was drafting Marion at 9 when he was relatively unknown luck? Was targeting Stoudemire luck (I imagine you'll respond we were lucky other teams let him slide by)? How about Nash at 16, Finley at 21, Hornacek and Ceballos in the 2nd round, etc...? Since every team has hits and misses when it comes to personnel moves and especially the draft, do you think good sense never comes into the equation? Or have the Wizards and Clippers and Hawks, etc... been exceptionally unlucky for the past 20 years, and the Suns (two years not making the playoffs in about 20 years, I think) exceptionally lucky?


I think you should give some credit where it's due as far as Suns management for keeping this team competitive for the past 20 years.

The Suns have made lots of good decisions over the years. It just seems to me having read every tidbit in the paper, this board, every web article etc.. over the last year that the Suns have got a lot of lucky bounces. One year ago they traded Marbury for nothing to dump massive payroll. They had no idea who if anybody would be available in the off season.

Nash would still be a Mav if Cuban had had the vision to match the Suns offer. Even after the historic sales job Nash went to Cuban and said "Match this offer and I'll stay" The Clips could have matched on Q and the Suns could just as easy right now be the exact same team they were at the end of last year. Worse yet they might have flown into panic mode if they lost Nash, Q and the pick and signed somebody awful.

I'm just bothered by everybody making BC and co. out to be such great visionaries. No way they knew everything would turn out this great last year when they made the trade. they put themselves in a position for good things to happen and they caught some good luck. I'd bet money that BC would admit to this in a second.

 

[fordronken]

I'm not necessarily ready to give up on Leandro Barbosa. I think he could be a nice combo guard off the bench, but I don't think he's ever going to be a very good point guard. It would be one thing if he was struggling to figure out the NBA. He just hasn't shown anything that leads me to believe he's going to be able to run an offense.

Maybe you could provide some examples of some of those guys who took a few years to learn how to get a single assist.

Joe Mama

He doesn't have to be a top-tier playmaker to be a successful point guard. Heck, most point guards in the league right now get called combo guards. But a lot of point guards like Chauncy Billups and even Steve Nash took time to figure everything out. Sure, right now, Barbosa is a better scorer than a passer. Most players are. But I think there's a decent chance that in the next couple of years he will develop into a player that is capable of running a team with some efficiency. Darrell Armstrong is more of a scorer than a passer, but if he were spelling Steve Nash, he would know, with some regularity, how to keep the game under control.

 

[PhxGametime]

Anybody know how to find older College rosters or the PG on the 98 North Carolina team with Shammond Williams, Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison, etc... I never knew why he didn't get a chance in NBA?

This could be on the other Thread but I'm sure there are a few FA PG's that are available? NBDL?

Trading the Bulls Draft Pick or a young role player right now because Nash is out a few games - I'd probably want a young key piece back?

 

[JCSunsfan]

We should either trade Lampe or play him. Simple as that. He's doing nothing for us rotting on the bench.

The kid is 19. He's not "rotting" --he's growing up.

 

[PhxGametime]

Ed Cota...


wonder what League he's playing in, he can run a team - was a bit short and I think at the time, he wasn't a GREAT shooter but that was years ago.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I still say the Suns blew it by trading the pick. There won't be any players at 15 that will be even close to as good as Iggy or Deng. The SUns got Vroman who will NEVER be a factor for this team and a mid first rounder (ZARKO) for Iggy. That is weak.

And the arguement that the Suns wouldn't have been able to get Q isn't necessarily true. They could have dumped some salary and still made him the same offer. Iggy would be a great 6th man for this team. He would fit perfectly with their current style.

This is bogus. It was nearly impossible to cut the salary to offer the same money. They would have had to get rid of both Jake Voskuhl and Zarko and take back zero salary. Considering no one had a trade exeception at that point, it wasn't going to happen.

You can argue with trading the pick with the idea that Iggy and Deng would have a similar impact as Q for 1/3 the money but there was maybe a 1-2% of the Suns even having a CHANCE of signing Q if we didn't. That much is indisputable.



Calling the Suns aquisition of Nash and Q a "lucky bounce" is nonsense as well. That is what Free Agency is all about. You NEVER know what you might wind up with when you put yourself in a position to hit the market. The Suns did know that they had a better chance of winning long term without the financial restraints of Penny and Marbury. What pieces they replaced them with was still unknown, but it was always going to be their choice of who they signed.

You claim that the Suns get a lot of luck, which is why they are successful. You refuse to give BC any credit. I have news, by your definition every good team is lucky.

The TWolves and Kevin Mchale were "lucky" when they drafted a HS senior, they couldn't have had the vision he would be a great player.

The Spurs and Greg Popovich were "lucky" to have Robinson get injured for a season, and lot the top lottery pick and best player in the league.

The Lakers and Jerry West were "lucky" to nab Shaq from Orlando and draft a HS senior that turned out to be a great one.

The Heat and Pay Riley were "lucky" to pick Dwayne Wade higher than anyone expected and that Shaq would demand a trade.

The Pacers and Donnie Walsh were "lucky" the Blazers didn't have the forsight to predict Jermaine Oneal's emergence.

The Pistons and Joe Dumars were "lucky" they demanded little known Ben Wallace from Orlando in the Grant Hill deal.

The Magic and John Gabriel were "lucky" that Tmac was sick of being in Carter's shadow and wanted to play at home.




Point is, it is easy to claim success is luck. Of course, the fact the Suns are "lucky" so often indicates there is a little more to it.

 

[PhxGametime]

The TWolves and Kevin Mchale were "lucky" when they drafted a HS senior, they couldn't have had the vision he would be a great player.


Kevin Garnett was just dominate in the McDonald's game, so they did have a good belief


I really thought Dwyane Wade would be a star, I had him rated #5 on my Draftboard but I can't say if you go back and look at it (Draft ranking's), you'd be impressed

I was very impressed with Josh Howard but everyone else had him ranked lower, I fell in trap...


Following the Draft is cool IMO (sorry Gee!)...