Ryanwb said:
Did he sit out his last season with a fake ankle injury because he hated his coach, and was he mentally ill?
That's apples and oranges. A guy not getting into college is a lot different that a guy in college who's batty.
Two words of warning before placing blind faith in Dennis Green for the draft:
- Thread starter jolt
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Did he sit out his last season with a fake ankle injury because he hated his coach, and was he mentally ill?
That's apples and oranges. A guy not getting into college is a lot different that a guy in college who's batty.
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jolt,
Your entire premise is flawed. For any entire draft class , after three years have passed, less than 1/2 are still in the league. After five years, the percentage is below 30%! EVERYBODY "misses" more than they hit!
We are a "team" that would grade out as having successful drafts because we've kept the majority of our picks the last few years. (Since that seems to be your main criteria.) But, so what? We've stunk, who cares that they made the team? The Steelers have had some good drafts, yes. But, they have also had some real stinker picks. Jeremy Staat anyone?
Your entire premise is flawed. For any entire draft class , after three years have passed, less than 1/2 are still in the league. After five years, the percentage is below 30%! EVERYBODY "misses" more than they hit!
We are a "team" that would grade out as having successful drafts because we've kept the majority of our picks the last few years. (Since that seems to be your main criteria.) But, so what? We've stunk, who cares that they made the team? The Steelers have had some good drafts, yes. But, they have also had some real stinker picks. Jeremy Staat anyone?
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TILLMANFAN
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The average length of service for an NFL player is around 3 years. To go back more than 3 years from Greens last season is misleading. Obviously Green was doing something right with the players he aqciured through the draft of FA because the Vikes won under Green. In fact, they won with an old Cunningham, Jeff George, Brad Johnson, Culpepper and a couple of other QB's. Greens offensive systems seem to work no matter who is running them.
CardinalChris
Big Man Himself
jolt said:
Different issue. He took a risk on a head case. Your apple and oranges issue is in reply to saying that picking a guy who didn't even play last year is risky. So nobody should draft Clarett this year?
Now should he have picked a guy with his disorder? Again, it looks bad because it didn't work out. I bet Marquis Hill gets drafted (also documented with Bipolar). Whoever picks him is a fool, right?
Crimson Warrior
Dangerous Murray Zealot
jolt said:
Ok jolt. You're making a decent arguement. However, Green could have the worst draft in NFL history this year, and, if he wins 9 games in 2004, do you know what?
I won't give a rats you-know-what about the draft!
Winning is the bottom line, right?
and Green wins, right?
so whatever he did in Minni was right, right?
Therefore, your arguement is prima facia stupid.
Next case, please.
CardinalChris said:
I wouldn't touch Clarett. I think Green might, because he likes troubled players he can help, but I wouldn't.
Marquis Hill takes medication for his medical problem. Underwood didn't.
As for Crimson's point, I agree. If we win, who cares about the draft.
cardsunsfan
ASFN Lifer
I have to agree that he has a very low rate of success with players in the 2nd round and up. I know the average player is out of football in 3 years but not over 90%. I have a feeling most teams have done a better job of drafting after round one than Green. Why don't we trade our second through seven for another first then? 
I hope Green doesn't reach in the second...
If he is poor at drafting good talent after round one then we should look at that. I hope he listens to our scouting department after week picked Boldin. I think we made some really good choices after the first round. Actually the first round seems to be our worst! Hopefully we can mix the talents of Green and the rest of the staff to have a great draft.
I do think Underwood was a big mistake. Most draft experts agreed too. He wasn't even supposed to go until the second or the third. If he has so many problems why not take one of the great players in the first and hope he's there in the second or probably a better idea, the third? You still have to weight risks and first rounders don't always need to be high risk to be high reward.
I don't really buy that he had too low of a second rounder and above to get any good players. A low second rounder is still better then a high third and there has been talent in the third. Many of you have been arguing how important the later rounds can be and how those picks can still be valuble, including me. Remember there are more players in the hall of fame that came from the second round instead of the first. Unfortunately Green hasn't contributed to that too much...
Look at how well Green did in Minni over the years.. If he can improve his drafting in the later rounds he can be even better! I think people should always look to improve and be open to new ideas. That's how you get better and no matter how good he's been he hasn't gone all the way and that's what we unltimately want right?
I hope Green doesn't reach in the second...If he is poor at drafting good talent after round one then we should look at that. I hope he listens to our scouting department after week picked Boldin. I think we made some really good choices after the first round. Actually the first round seems to be our worst! Hopefully we can mix the talents of Green and the rest of the staff to have a great draft.
I do think Underwood was a big mistake. Most draft experts agreed too. He wasn't even supposed to go until the second or the third. If he has so many problems why not take one of the great players in the first and hope he's there in the second or probably a better idea, the third? You still have to weight risks and first rounders don't always need to be high risk to be high reward.
I don't really buy that he had too low of a second rounder and above to get any good players. A low second rounder is still better then a high third and there has been talent in the third. Many of you have been arguing how important the later rounds can be and how those picks can still be valuble, including me. Remember there are more players in the hall of fame that came from the second round instead of the first. Unfortunately Green hasn't contributed to that too much...
Look at how well Green did in Minni over the years.. If he can improve his drafting in the later rounds he can be even better! I think people should always look to improve and be open to new ideas. That's how you get better and no matter how good he's been he hasn't gone all the way and that's what we unltimately want right?
Everyone else is forgetting Green was not picking very high in any of these drafts, reason being his teams had good records and winning seasons. Green was landing Probowl talent with low draft spots. Imagine what he could do with these great draft spots the Cards have this upcoming Draft!!! 
Actually, I think Chapman is a backup guy, too. And has competed for, though never actually won the starting job. It did look for a while last year (after Bennet went down) like he might be the guy in a crowded backfield with O. Smith and M. Williams, trouble is, he got hurt himself.jolt said:
In a more general vein, the draft produces more dud than diamonds. It's the nature of the beast. I'm not claiming that Green is a draft God, but I think he has a pretty fair record.
joeshmo
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jolt said:
OK I will name 5, Crawford, Kelly, James, Chukwurah, and Scott are all on NFL teams right now, and the year before that to.
ASUCHRIS
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DevonCardsFan said:Everyone else is forgetting Green was not picking very high in any of these drafts, reason being his teams had good records and winning seasons. Green was landing Probowl talent with low draft spots. Imagine what he could do with these great draft spots the Cards have this upcoming Draft!!!
Excellent Point!
Renz
An Army of One
Wong played four years with Minnesota and he is still in the NFL with Houston. Very solid player.jolt said:
joeshmo
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Lets put this all in perspective. I think we can all agree that Parcells is a good coach. So lets see what Parcells did with the Patriots from 1993-1996(4 years).
Bill Parcells – 1993 – Picking about 20 spots ahead of Green
1 New England Bledsoe, Drew QB Washington State
2 New England Slade, Chris DE Virginia
2 New England Rucci, Todd G Penn State
3 New England Brisby, Vincent WR Louisiana-Monroe
4 New England Johnson, Kevin NT Texas Southern
4 New England Brown, Corwin SS Michigan
5 New England Sisson, Scott K Georgia Tech
5 New England Griffith, Richard TE Arizona
6 New England Hatch, Lawrence DB Florida
8 New England Brown, Troy WR Marshall
Bill Parcells – 1994 Picking about 15 spots ahead of Green
1 New England McGinest, Willie DE Southern California
2 New England Lee, Kevin WR Alabama
3 New England Collier, Ervin NT Florida A&M
3 New England Burch, Joe C Texas Southern
4 New England Burke, John TE Virginia Tech
5 New England O'Neill, Pat P Syracuse
6 New England Hawkins, Steve WR Western Michigan
6 New England Lane, Max T Navy
7 New England Walker, Jay QB Howard
7 New England Moore, Marty MLB Kentucky
Bill Parcells – 1995 Picking about 10 spots ahead of Green
1 New England Law, Ty CB Michigan
2 New England Johnson, Ted MLB Colorado
3 New England Martin, Curtis RB Pittsburgh
3 New England Hitchcock, Jimmy CB North Carolina
4 New England Wohlabaugh, Dave C Syracuse
6 New England Philyaw, Dino RB Oregon
7 New England Yancy, CarlosDBGeorgia
Bill Parcells – 1996 Picking about 10 spots ahead of Green
1 New England Glenn, Terry WR Ohio State
2 New England Milloy, Lawyer SS Washington
3 New England Bruschi, Tedy OLB Arizona
4 New England Irwin, Heath G Colorado
4 New England Sullivan, Chris DE Boston College
4 New England Barber, Kantroy RB West Virginia
5 New England Elmore, John G Texas
5 New England Peter, Christian DT Nebraska
6 New England Griffin, Chris TE New Mexico
6 New England Grier, Marrio RB Tenn.-Chattanooga
6 New England Wyman, Devin DT Kentucky State
7 New England Purnell, Lovett TE West Virginia
7 New England Conrad, J.R. G Oklahoma
As you can see Parcells had just as many hits and misses as Green did. You can argue that Parcells found a few more gems but Parcells also had 40 picks during this time span while Green had only 30, and Green was picking in the later parts of the draft from 1993-1996 season while NE was picking towards the top.
Looking at these drafts makes me think that Parcells sucks(sarcasm).
Heck lets throw in his last 2 years coaching during the same time as Green.
Bill Parcells – 1997 – again picking way ahead of Green plus had more picks
1 N.Y. Jets Farrior, James OLB Virginia
2 N.Y. Jets Terry, Rick DT North Carolina
3 N.Y. Jets Ward, Dedric WR Northern Iowa
4 N.Y. Jets Day, Terry DE Mississippi State
4 N.Y. Jets Johnson, Leon RB North Carolina
5 N.Y. Jets Burns, Lamont G East Carolina
5 N.Y. Jets Austin, Raymond S Tennessee
6 N.Y. Jets Scharf, Tim LB Northwestern
6 N.Y. Jets Clements, Chuck QB Houston
7 N.Y. Jets Rosga, Steve S Colorado
7 N.Y. Jets Ferguson, Jason NT Georgia
Bill Parcells – 1998
2 N.Y. Jets Boose, Dorian DE Washington State
3 N.Y. Jets Frost, Scott FS Nebraska
3 N.Y. Jets Williams, Kevin FS Oklahoma State
4 N.Y. Jets Fabini, Jason T Cincinnati
5 N.Y. Jets Dailey, Casey LB Northwestern
5 N.Y. Jets Karczewski, Doug G Virginia
5 N.Y. Jets Spence, Blake TE Oregon
5 N.Y. Jets Bateman, Eric T Brigham Young
6 N.Y. Jets Ogbogu, Eric DE Maryland
6 N.Y. Jets Brazzell, Chris WR Angelo State
7 N.Y. Jets Hart, Lawrence TE Southern U
Bill Parcells – 1993 – Picking about 20 spots ahead of Green
1 New England Bledsoe, Drew QB Washington State
2 New England Slade, Chris DE Virginia
2 New England Rucci, Todd G Penn State
3 New England Brisby, Vincent WR Louisiana-Monroe
4 New England Johnson, Kevin NT Texas Southern
4 New England Brown, Corwin SS Michigan
5 New England Sisson, Scott K Georgia Tech
5 New England Griffith, Richard TE Arizona
6 New England Hatch, Lawrence DB Florida
8 New England Brown, Troy WR Marshall
Bill Parcells – 1994 Picking about 15 spots ahead of Green
1 New England McGinest, Willie DE Southern California
2 New England Lee, Kevin WR Alabama
3 New England Collier, Ervin NT Florida A&M
3 New England Burch, Joe C Texas Southern
4 New England Burke, John TE Virginia Tech
5 New England O'Neill, Pat P Syracuse
6 New England Hawkins, Steve WR Western Michigan
6 New England Lane, Max T Navy
7 New England Walker, Jay QB Howard
7 New England Moore, Marty MLB Kentucky
Bill Parcells – 1995 Picking about 10 spots ahead of Green
1 New England Law, Ty CB Michigan
2 New England Johnson, Ted MLB Colorado
3 New England Martin, Curtis RB Pittsburgh
3 New England Hitchcock, Jimmy CB North Carolina
4 New England Wohlabaugh, Dave C Syracuse
6 New England Philyaw, Dino RB Oregon
7 New England Yancy, CarlosDBGeorgia
Bill Parcells – 1996 Picking about 10 spots ahead of Green
1 New England Glenn, Terry WR Ohio State
2 New England Milloy, Lawyer SS Washington
3 New England Bruschi, Tedy OLB Arizona
4 New England Irwin, Heath G Colorado
4 New England Sullivan, Chris DE Boston College
4 New England Barber, Kantroy RB West Virginia
5 New England Elmore, John G Texas
5 New England Peter, Christian DT Nebraska
6 New England Griffin, Chris TE New Mexico
6 New England Grier, Marrio RB Tenn.-Chattanooga
6 New England Wyman, Devin DT Kentucky State
7 New England Purnell, Lovett TE West Virginia
7 New England Conrad, J.R. G Oklahoma
As you can see Parcells had just as many hits and misses as Green did. You can argue that Parcells found a few more gems but Parcells also had 40 picks during this time span while Green had only 30, and Green was picking in the later parts of the draft from 1993-1996 season while NE was picking towards the top.
Looking at these drafts makes me think that Parcells sucks(sarcasm).
Heck lets throw in his last 2 years coaching during the same time as Green.
Bill Parcells – 1997 – again picking way ahead of Green plus had more picks
1 N.Y. Jets Farrior, James OLB Virginia
2 N.Y. Jets Terry, Rick DT North Carolina
3 N.Y. Jets Ward, Dedric WR Northern Iowa
4 N.Y. Jets Day, Terry DE Mississippi State
4 N.Y. Jets Johnson, Leon RB North Carolina
5 N.Y. Jets Burns, Lamont G East Carolina
5 N.Y. Jets Austin, Raymond S Tennessee
6 N.Y. Jets Scharf, Tim LB Northwestern
6 N.Y. Jets Clements, Chuck QB Houston
7 N.Y. Jets Rosga, Steve S Colorado
7 N.Y. Jets Ferguson, Jason NT Georgia
Bill Parcells – 1998
2 N.Y. Jets Boose, Dorian DE Washington State
3 N.Y. Jets Frost, Scott FS Nebraska
3 N.Y. Jets Williams, Kevin FS Oklahoma State
4 N.Y. Jets Fabini, Jason T Cincinnati
5 N.Y. Jets Dailey, Casey LB Northwestern
5 N.Y. Jets Karczewski, Doug G Virginia
5 N.Y. Jets Spence, Blake TE Oregon
5 N.Y. Jets Bateman, Eric T Brigham Young
6 N.Y. Jets Ogbogu, Eric DE Maryland
6 N.Y. Jets Brazzell, Chris WR Angelo State
7 N.Y. Jets Hart, Lawrence TE Southern U
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cardsunsfan
ASFN Lifer
DevonCardsFan said:Everyone else is forgetting Green was not picking very high in any of these drafts, reason being his teams had good records and winning seasons. Green was landing Probowl talent with low draft spots. Imagine what he could do with these great draft spots the Cards have this upcoming Draft!!!
From my post right before that one
I don't really buy that he had too low of a second rounder and above to get any good players. A low second rounder is still better then a high third and there has been talent in the third. Many of you have been arguing how important the later rounds can be and how those picks can still be valuble, including me. Remember there are more players in the hall of fame that came from the second round instead of the first. Unfortunately Green hasn't contributed to that too much...
Everybody seems to forget what I post.
If I say trade down and do something some else in the same thread will say...you noone ever mentioned we could trade down and etc...1. Underwood became ill. What if he had gotten cancer or been shot on the way to camp. You cannot hold Underwood against DG. He had great measurables, was a double digit sack man in college, with a lousy Dallas team playing part time and with a serious illness - he still managed to get 4 sacks! He became ill. Given DG's track record with draft picks and what he did in school and DAL Underwood would have been a good player at least and maybe another pro-bowler he became ill - end of story. Not DG's fault unless you expect him to be psychic.
Not that it matters in the least but what happened at school was Underwood hurt his ankle and his coach wanted him to play hurt (what did the coach care about him ruining his future) Underwood refused until the ankle was rehabbed once it felt right he told the coach he was ready to play - but the coach petulantly sat him out. Then the coach badmouthed him hoping to hurt his draft status.
I will address DG's drafting record in my next post once again!
Not that it matters in the least but what happened at school was Underwood hurt his ankle and his coach wanted him to play hurt (what did the coach care about him ruining his future) Underwood refused until the ankle was rehabbed once it felt right he told the coach he was ready to play - but the coach petulantly sat him out. Then the coach badmouthed him hoping to hurt his draft status.
I will address DG's drafting record in my next post once again!
1. There is another thread where I broke down every draft pick DG had.
2. Many intelligent posters here pointed out facts regarding DG's drafting record. Good points folks. I will just reiterate with additional details.
3. Careers are short. You get a guy who plays 3 good years that is a good pick. Analyzing a draft pick based on how he is as a 30 year old man is not fair. If he is still in the NFL at advanced age he was a good pick.
4. DG drafted low almost always - and throughout all the rounds! If you have TSN magazine check out the first rounders from last year or any year lots of busts. There are even more in later rounds. DG was drafting pro-bowlers in both the first round and later rounds!
5. PFW voted him best GM 95-2000. TSN had him ranked high as well. DG made mistakes all GMs do but he made less mistakes. The draft is a crapshoot he hit on more picks then most! That is why he was the best, if he was not name someone better then him during his time. Compare for eg. his 1st round picks to the "genius" Ron Wolf. DG blows him out of the water.
6. Great post on Parcells. Taking anyone's picks they will look bad. You can do the same with FA for eg. lots of bad FA pickups by GMs year after year and DG had a few bad FA pickups but again he (given limited funds for FA) also had many great FA pickups that is why he was the best. Less mistakes you cannot expect perfection.
The fact that DG has a 7th round pick still in the NFL from iirc 5 years ago is testament to his great drafting.
7. Look at TSN magazine: 59 CBs listed. Forty offensive tackles listed. Good luck finding guy who can make the NFL. DG managed to get pro-bowlers in later rounds and round 1 not easy to do.
2. Many intelligent posters here pointed out facts regarding DG's drafting record. Good points folks. I will just reiterate with additional details.
3. Careers are short. You get a guy who plays 3 good years that is a good pick. Analyzing a draft pick based on how he is as a 30 year old man is not fair. If he is still in the NFL at advanced age he was a good pick.
4. DG drafted low almost always - and throughout all the rounds! If you have TSN magazine check out the first rounders from last year or any year lots of busts. There are even more in later rounds. DG was drafting pro-bowlers in both the first round and later rounds!
5. PFW voted him best GM 95-2000. TSN had him ranked high as well. DG made mistakes all GMs do but he made less mistakes. The draft is a crapshoot he hit on more picks then most! That is why he was the best, if he was not name someone better then him during his time. Compare for eg. his 1st round picks to the "genius" Ron Wolf. DG blows him out of the water.
6. Great post on Parcells. Taking anyone's picks they will look bad. You can do the same with FA for eg. lots of bad FA pickups by GMs year after year and DG had a few bad FA pickups but again he (given limited funds for FA) also had many great FA pickups that is why he was the best. Less mistakes you cannot expect perfection.
The fact that DG has a 7th round pick still in the NFL from iirc 5 years ago is testament to his great drafting.
7. Look at TSN magazine: 59 CBs listed. Forty offensive tackles listed. Good luck finding guy who can make the NFL. DG managed to get pro-bowlers in later rounds and round 1 not easy to do.
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dopleganger
Veteran
vikesfan said:jolt said:
Yea but the Vikings now suck. So all these players suck too.
dopleganger
Veteran
vikesfan said:
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